A question for Theists

[lovemuffin]

On the original topic, I think there is a problem with the idea of metaphysical omnipotence and the idea that God could create any logically possible world. It is the root of the problem of evil. I'm not sure it's possible to observe the world we live in and come to the conclusion of metaphysical omnipotence, and at least in the Abrahamic tradition I'm not sure "omnipotence" is a good translation of words like pantokrator or shaddai. I'm not sure about this idea though.

Does suffering exist as a part of God? If suffering is a part of God, is it inherently good?

Is God inherently good, bad or neutral?

I think it's easy to say that God is good, and that is both the experience and revelation of God, but it's not easy to make sense of suffering if God is omnipotent and good. Maybe the idea of "goodness" needs to be qualified. It almost always ends up being qualified since obviously we don't exist in a perfectly good world. If you begin with an omnipotent God as a premise, then in some sense God is "responsible" for suffering, although we might quibble about whether God causes it or merely allows it, or about the idea of this being the best of all possible worlds, or about the moral value of "free will" and etc. I feel like in some way the answer is that it just all is, and it's not really a question of whether it could be otherwise. That's why I suspect that the idea of omnipotence isn't that useful.

 

[Lyndon]

Is there an inherently correct morality which is derived from God?

I think God's morality is flexible and caters to the individual, not the same for everyone.

For me morality involves keeping the 5 Buddhist precepts, 4 of which are also of the ten commandments picked by Jesus as being the most important, its about being a good person, being the best person I can be, standing up for myself,not being pushed into wasting my time,drinking or partying. Being kind, considerate, and caring to people that deserve it.

 

[Kirran]

I think it's easy to say that God is good, and that is both the experience and revelation of God, but it's not easy to make sense of suffering if God is omnipotent and good. Maybe the idea of "goodness" needs to be qualified. It almost always ends up being qualified since obviously we don't exist in a perfectly good world. If you begin with an omnipotent God as a premise, then in some sense God is "responsible" for suffering, although we might quibble about whether God causes it or merely allows it, or about the idea of this being the best of all possible worlds, or about the moral value of "free will" and etc. I feel like in some way the answer is that it just all is, and it's not really a question of whether it could be otherwise. That's why I suspect that the idea of omnipotence isn't that useful.

Goodness varies from person to person, so there's one thing.

I'm with you on all just is.

The idea of omnipotence stems, of course, from personal perceptions of God, as a personal God has preferences and make choices about reality itself.

I think God's morality is flexible and caters to the individual, not the same for everyone.

For me morality involves keeping the 5 Buddhist precepts, 4 of which are also of the ten commandments picked by Jesus as being the most important, its about being a good person, being the best person I can be, standing up for myself,not being pushed into wasting my time,drinking or partying. Being kind, considerate, and caring to people that deserve it.

Might different people's moralities conflict, then? For example, execution for apostasy vs. non-violence?

 

[Lyndon]

I would never call executing for Apostasy morality, but rather immorality. I was thinking more like some other people's morality might involve drinking or smoking pot, some other people's morality might involve free sex and multiple partners, for me my morality involves vegetarianism, but it also includes smoking cigarettes and drinking coffee, as a diabetic, my morality involves virtually eliminating sugar from my diet, eating as healthy as I can, and not being silent when i feel someone is expressing what I consider a wrong and dangerous idea.

So yes some people's moralities could conflict with mine to the point where I don't want to associate with them, but I'm not one to be saying they are going to Hell because they don't think like me, if there is a Hell, I think its for child molesters, rapists and murderers, not apostates, atheists or non believers.

 

[Chakra]

To pray to Brahman doesn't make any sense. To pray to Krishna does. So in this sense, to pray to the Christ is to pray to the form of God, the manifestation of God, like Shiva and Vishnu or Vishnu's avatars Rama and Krishna. So, Jesus is quite like Krishna this way.

Just wanted to point out that only in one Vedantic tradition is Brahman taken as impersonal. In other Vedantic traditions Brahman is synonymous with Vishnu/Krishna/Rama etc.

 

[Kirran]

Just wanted to point out that only in one Vedantic tradition is Brahman taken as impersonal. In other Vedantic traditions Brahman is synonymous with Vishnu/Krishna/Rama etc.

Advaita's very widespread though

I would never call executing for Apostasy morality, but rather immorality.

But it'd be morality for some people.

Another question for everybody:

When did you first experience God?

 

[Lyndon]

But it'd be morality for some people.

When did you first experience God?

I was speaking of a morality that came from God, not man. Apostasy might be considered a crime to some people but they are not getting their morality from the same God I worship IMHO

My first experience of God, I was about 21, I read Lao Tzu's Tao te Ching, and it stuck me the Tao is the God I'm looking for evidence of, I was doing drugs back then, and from time to time I heard God speak to me, even wrote a lot of it down, it doesn't all mesh with the Abrahamic God which seems male, but is rather a female God, perhaps the mate of the Abrahamic God, but probably seperated, not still married!! I interviewed God asked questions and wrote down the answers, I asked are you the creator, the reply was "I am not the creator you seek".!! God instructed me to address her as LORD GOD Embodiment of Truth and Wisdom, in other words no BS, no lies, just the straight truth. I only very rarely still hear God speak to me, on time it was a clear "Quit smoking Pot" that was 7 years ago and I haven't smoked since. God is very real to me, very powerful and able to influence events in my life. With my violin repair business I'm continually running low on funds and right when I'm getting desperate, the money is about to run out, I get a sale and I'm good for another month or two, this has gone on for years, I haven't ever really gone broke, of course I have to live modestly and not buy a lot of things, that's part of my discipline.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Lyndon prabhu ......ji

Its just bad religion to not pray to God, and pray to a mortal man instead, who would you think is more likely to be able to answer your prayers.

For a Hindu it might be analogous to praying to Krishna or Brahma instead of Brahman. Does that make any sense.

this is a very nice thread for people to discuss how we feel about God , Gods , manifestations of God and sons of God

not to tell others that they have got it wrong ...... Grrr Grrr Gnash Gnash ,

...I could almost be angry with you for being so utterly out of order ....But I will forgive you because you are so crashingly wrong that I just laughed , .....

Ok , .... go to the back of the class and write out 108 times Sri Krsna Bhagavan Is the supreme personality of Godhead

then go back to the O.P. and answer the questions

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Oh, man, sorry ratikala, this has gone off on a tangent. Here I am trying to promote acceptance of different views of God.

Hmmm , yes so I see

oh well three pages of polite conversation wasnt bad , .....

.....PUBLIC NOTICE .....​

.....this thread is for polite theists to discuss the nature of God

i.e. ....As a theist how do YOU feel about God ? ....omnipersent , omnipotent , omniscient , ....?​

each person is allowd their own veiw and no one should tell eachother that they are praying to the wrong God

Ok guys lets just be interested in each others veiws for once

​

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram , ....

I'm going to try and bring this back on track, partly as penance.

jai jai , ....good more questions , ....

What do people think is gained from worship of God? ........Hmmm ....me thinks at first people worship God or gods wishing for some result , even just fot the clarity of mind to understand the nature of God , ...but as that understanding grows we come to the point of loving God so we worship out of pure adoration . ......what is gained ? ...Wisdom , ..Knowledge , ....Love , ...Compassion , .....and freedom from suffering .

Does suffering exist as a part of God? If suffering is a part of God, is it inherently good? ......... yes , in that everything is a part of God , ......but that suffering is as a result of our ignorance , therefore it becomes a part of our learning process , so in that respect it is only through suffering that we realise our seperation from the supreme , therefore through Knowledge suffering can be trancended , so yes , it is a nececary part of the process , ...without it we would not learn , therefore we would never atain knowledge of God .

Is God inherently good, bad or neutral? ...good and bad may be our concepts , ...God himself is .....eternaly blissfull and full of knowledge ,....this state of being could be described as neutral , ....because it just is , it is the true nature of phenomena ..there is no bad, no mallintent , .. therefore good as the antithesis canot be there either , ...but if we are talking about purity and truth then That is God , ...and from where we stand that is Good

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

Advaita's very widespread though

Hmmm , ...but Vaisnavism is prehaps more prominent , ...so they say ? ... but this is not a competition ....

so forget I just said that , ...

Lets have more questions , ....


on the subject of morality , ...when we say 'goodness' ....might we mean Godliness ?

....in otherwords moraly just ?

 

[SpentaMaynu]

I wanted to say something and then deleted it again and then Ratikala said it for me lol. I'm just going to concentrate on the good positive parts (so far still in majority, thank God) in this post.

but can ths not be looked on in different ways , ...this betrayal was prehaps a part of Gods plan , without the betrayal there was no sacrifice ? ...and from this sacrifice what did Judas and other Christians learn ? ...the Bhagavad Gita also looks at this issue , Krsna explains that although the body may be killed that the soul is eternal , ...and it is true we all rise again this is part of the process of learning , prosess of purification , ....and of Jesus son of God he to is eternal he canot be killed yet he accepts betrayal , ....if this betrayal is Evil why does he accept it ? he dosent have to , he does so for a hidden reason , .....this is for us to examine , ...Gods reason for allowing any of us to suffer ? ...what are we supposed to learn , ...

I think you are right yes. This is what I mean when I say that even evil is part of God because we don't really understand the greater Mind of God. As you said a few times (or was it Kirran, sorry if I quote the wrong person here) it is due to our ignorance. In that moment the Judas betrayed Jesus it was evil (in some stage around there one of the Gospels says that Satan took hold of Judas), this is from our point of view and I think it will take us a while to not immediately judge every situation as either good or evil but just let it be). From Jesus' point of view, as you said, He accepted it because He knew the greater picture and was fully aware of God in Him. Lol I struggled with exactly that same thing in the Bhagavad Gita as well.

To what extent are you a manifestation of God?

I know you directed these questions to Ratikala but they're so interesting that I ask you to forgive me if I wasn't supposed to answer. I do like Ratikala's answers as well. My take on to what extent I am a manifestation of God is this - I believe God is Love (I think that most if not all Scriptures will be able to confirm this) so we as aspects of that Love is supposed to show love and in fact (if possible) be love to one another and even unto all living beings.

Is the Supreme more present in some times or places than others?

It certainly feels as if God is only in some places at some times. I for one love to go to churches, temples, other places of worship and to nature as well because I always feel very close to God in such places. I think one of the reasons it feels like this is because we spent a lot of our time focusing on God in these specific places and also on specific times. But it shouldn't be this way - who should actually be focusing on God every where at all times. I agree with Ratikala that our perception gets in the way of understanding.

In the Judeo Christian religion, there is an Almighty God, who is God over all the gods, and Jehovah - who is the God of Israel. Each nation was watched by their own archons or Gods. These gods were the premortal spirits of men, assigned to their tasks by Almighty God through his spokesman, Jehovah. Jehovah was assigned from the beginning to be born as the physical son of Almighty God.

Jehovah was born as Jesus, and Jesus knew who he was. When he told the Jews that he was the Son of God, they wanted to stone him. He argued that in the scripture (Psalms 82:6), Almighty God called the other archons gods, and therefore it wasn't blasphemy for him (Jesus) to call himself the Son of God. They didn't go for it and still tried to stone him.

The gospel of the Son of God was taught many hundreds of years before Jesus was born, but at the time of his birth, this doctrine had fallen out of fashion. Jesus, however, grew up in Egypt, where apparently the doctrine was still taught.

Almighty God was a living God who ruled from an actual throne in the heavens. He wasn't everywhere-present and he wasn't a spirit. The idea that God was an omnipresent spirit is a late heresy that came from Greek philosophy. Philosophers have imagined a God without limits, virtually defining God out of existence, for everything that is real has properties or limits.

Although the word "Eternal" is often used to mean for ever, the original Hebrew meaning was often "from time unknown". God was God from "time unknown". No knowledge of the origins of God can be found in the Holy Writ.

When God sends a representative, that person then speaks for God. The angel who appeared to John the Apostle in the book Revelations, starts out by calling himself "Alpha and Omega", but later acknowledges that he is just an angel, and not actually God himself. This is called the divine investiture of authority, and apparently has been going on for untold millennia.

So it may well be that all those who are called gods are actually only acting as Gods, representing those or he who has come before.

I've been born and raised Christian (though Pentecostal and not Mormon) and I've never heard this POV. Just show that there is always new ideas to learn and though I don't agree with you on most of your points I find it very interesting.

What do people think is gained from worship of God?

For me I gain peace and the closeness to God. I try not to think too much about what I can gain from worshiping God and instead just focus on making God happy and not myself. Rabiah (I think she was a Muslim saint or mystic) prayed: 'Lord if I worship You in fear of hell, throw me in it; if I worship You in hope of Paradise, keep me out. But Lord, if I worship You for thine sake alone, please draw close to me in all Your glory.'

Does suffering exist as a part of God? If suffering is a part of God, is it inherently good?

I'm not sure I understand this question completely - do you mean does God suffer or do you mean does God allow suffering? If it is the first - as I was raised Christian I've always been confused by the Jewish extreme anger of God and the Christian extreme sadness of God which I saw in the Bible and heard in Church. My father, for one, is completely unable to think that God might actually be laughing all the time or feeling nothing. As for me, I think God have various emotions and some of these might cause Him to suffer though I don't think it's in exactly the same way we think of suffering.
If it's the second - I think God does allow suffering, and before we go into the whole why does God allow suffering if He is Supreme - I think God allows it for us to grow spiritually whether this is being done consciously or unconsciously.
In both these cases I don't think it is good or bad but how we react and to it is what is important.

Is there an inherently correct morality which is derived from God?

I think morality comes from inside ourselves and may differ from culture to culture and from time to time. Almost 30 years ago Apartheid in South Africa was morally right for white South Africans and morally wrong for the rest of the world and now it is morally wrong to most of us. All of these groups can and did show from Scripture that their POV was the morally correct one and that it derived from God. I agree with the atheists on this one that morality is something we as humans individually and in our societies decide on. What's wrong for one might be right for the next and both of them may be truthful worshipers of God and say that they derive their morality from Him.

When did you first experience God?

I was still Conservative Christian in my ideas and fresh out of school when I went to minister to prisoners with my dad in 2005. While there was preaching and testimonies each of us had one prisoner designated to us with whom we had to have conversations on the love of God for them no matter what they did wrong on the outside. What I didn't know on the first and second day was that those prisoners who wanted to accept Jesus or needed prayer in general was taken to another room and that even when there was no prisoners in that room those who were on duty kept on praying and worshiping continuously. On the third and last day I was called together with my dad to help out in this room. As I walked into the room it felt as if I walked straight into a thick wall of mist or smoke, I felt a continuous tingling feeling all over my body and with each breath I took it felt as if my intestines floated. It was the weirdest most amazing experience I've ever had and made me realize that the more you worship God the more He will make His presence felt.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Namaskaram ,

do those who would identify as Theists beleive in one supreme god or multiple gods ?

I'm a polytheist and animist.

to you Is god omnipotent ?

No.

is god omnipresent ?

Divinity is present everywhere.

is god omnicient ?

No.

is god eternal ?

The Gods are, yes. But we all are, so that's not very special. I'm unsure if our spirits had a beginning or not. Time doesn't exist outside of this present simulation we're all a part of.

Blissfull ?

I'm sure some are.

and full of Knowledge ?

Some are.

is God a personification of love ?

Some are quite loving.

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram SpentaMaynu ji

please do not worry about who a question was adressed to feel free to answer all that interests you , ...

For me I gain peace and the closeness to God. I try not to think too much about what I can gain from worshiping God and instead just focus on making God happy and not myself. Rabiah (I think she was a Muslim saint or mystic) prayed: 'Lord if I worship You in fear of hell, throw me in it; if I worship You in hope of Paradise, keep me out. But Lord, if I worship You for thine sake alone, please draw close to me in all Your glory.'

jai jai , ....perfect , ....utterly beautifull ...and again perfect .

Ill come back to the rest in a little while

 

[Chakra]

Advaita's very widespread though

Mainly neo-Advaita.

Btw, the question of omnipotence came up and I wanted to give my POV on that.

In Vaishnavism, Vishnu is our God and he is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. However, the Sanskrit words for the aforementioned traits have different meanings. Let me give an example.

Many atheists ask "Can God make a stone that he can't lift?" The answer is no, because God can do everything that doesn't violate his attributes. But making something that he cannot lift would violate his attribute of infinite strength. Now, atheists will say "Aha! You just refuted the very notion that God can do everything! God is not omnipotent!". The thing is, Vaishnavas have never called God as omnipotent in the English sense. The Sanskrit word means "to be able to do whatever is possible".

For example, can God commit suicide? No, because he is eternal. Can God ever fully know himself? No, because he is infinite!

 

[Kirran]

namaskaram , ....

jai jai , ....good more questions , ....

What do people think is gained from worship of God? ........Hmmm ....me thinks at first people worship God or gods wishing for some result , even just fot the clarity of mind to understand the nature of God , ...but as that understanding grows we come to the point of loving God so we worship out of pure adoration . ......what is gained ? ...Wisdom , ..Knowledge , ....Love , ...Compassion , .....and freedom from suffering .

Does suffering exist as a part of God? If suffering is a part of God, is it inherently good? ......... yes , in that everything is a part of God , ......but that suffering is as a result of our ignorance , therefore it becomes a part of our learning process , so in that respect it is only through suffering that we realise our seperation from the supreme , therefore through Knowledge suffering can be trancended , so yes , it is a nececary part of the process , ...without it we would not learn , therefore we would never atain knowledge of God .

Is God inherently good, bad or neutral? ...good and bad may be our concepts , ...God himself is .....eternaly blissfull and full of knowledge ,....this state of being could be described as neutral , ....because it just is , it is the true nature of phenomena ..there is no bad, no mallintent , .. therefore good as the antithesis canot be there either , ...but if we are talking about purity and truth then That is God , ...and from where we stand that is Good

Wonderful answers, the third especially is a really nice perspective, a great take.

namaskaram



Hmmm , ...but Vaisnavism is prehaps more prominent , ...so they say ? ... but this is not a competition ....

so forget I just said that , ...

Lets have more questions , ....

Then you win, ratikala

on the subject of morality , ...when we say 'goodness' ....might we mean Godliness ?

....in otherwords moraly just ?

For me, no, I don't think so. Because everything is godly, absolutely everything. Goodness is a quality we ascribe to anything. But, as the Daoists say, everything is perfect.

I know you directed these questions to Ratikala but they're so interesting that I ask you to forgive me if I wasn't supposed to answer. I do like Ratikala's answers as well. My take on to what extent I am a manifestation of God is this - I believe God is Love (I think that most if not all Scriptures will be able to confirm this) so we as aspects of that Love is supposed to show love and in fact (if possible) be love to one another and even unto all living beings.

They were for everyone my friend, answer away We're just about loving God on this thread.

So you can act as a channel for God? How beautiful.

It certainly feels as if God is only in some places at some times. I for one love to go to churches, temples, other places of worship and to nature as well because I always feel very close to God in such places. I think one of the reasons it feels like this is because we spent a lot of our time focusing on God in these specific places and also on specific times. But it shouldn't be this way - who should actually be focusing on God every where at all times. I agree with Ratikala that our perception gets in the way of understanding.

The body is a temple, and your body is the world...

But certainly, people make things sacred, and in that state of mind we can more easily feel the sublimity of the divine.

For me I gain peace and the closeness to God. I try not to think too much about what I can gain from worshiping God and instead just focus on making God happy and not myself. Rabiah (I think she was a Muslim saint or mystic) prayed: 'Lord if I worship You in fear of hell, throw me in it; if I worship You in hope of Paradise, keep me out. But Lord, if I worship You for thine sake alone, please draw close to me in all Your glory.'

That's an absolutely wonderful quote. I'd come across it before, but I didn't know who it was by. Just beautiful, beautiful, why ever do we separate ourselves from God, why do our minds draw away into hopping and jumping?

I'm not sure I understand this question completely - do you mean does God suffer or do you mean does God allow suffering? If it is the first - as I was raised Christian I've always been confused by the Jewish extreme anger of God and the Christian extreme sadness of God which I saw in the Bible and heard in Church. My father, for one, is completely unable to think that God might actually be laughing all the time or feeling nothing. As for me, I think God have various emotions and some of these might cause Him to suffer though I don't think it's in exactly the same way we think of suffering.
If it's the second - I think God does allow suffering, and before we go into the whole why does God allow suffering if He is Supreme - I think God allows it for us to grow spiritually whether this is being done consciously or unconsciously.
In both these cases I don't think it is good or bad but how we react and to it is what is important.

I meant more, is suffering, as it exists in the world, a part of God. It's more applicable for pantheists, panentheists and monists.

But your answers were still very interesting, and I admire your positive outlook on God.

I think morality comes from inside ourselves and may differ from culture to culture and from time to time. Almost 30 years ago Apartheid in South Africa was morally right for white South Africans and morally wrong for the rest of the world and now it is morally wrong to most of us. All of these groups can and did show from Scripture that their POV was the morally correct one and that it derived from God. I agree with the atheists on this one that morality is something we as humans individually and in our societies decide on. What's wrong for one might be right for the next and both of them may be truthful worshipers of God and say that they derive their morality from Him.

Right on, I agree with you fully. It's just stuff we decide all over the place.

I was still Conservative Christian in my ideas and fresh out of school when I went to minister to prisoners with my dad in 2005. While there was preaching and testimonies each of us had one prisoner designated to us with whom we had to have conversations on the love of God for them no matter what they did wrong on the outside. What I didn't know on the first and second day was that those prisoners who wanted to accept Jesus or needed prayer in general was taken to another room and that even when there was no prisoners in that room those who were on duty kept on praying and worshiping continuously. On the third and last day I was called together with my dad to help out in this room. As I walked into the room it felt as if I walked straight into a thick wall of mist or smoke, I felt a continuous tingling feeling all over my body and with each breath I took it felt as if my intestines floated. It was the weirdest most amazing experience I've ever had and made me realize that the more you worship God the more He will make His presence felt.

This is a great story, and it's lovely to see how you had such a great experience of God, and have found such devotion. A great thing.

This thread's been great, thankyou @ratikala.

The experience of God is the thing of beauty, the zenith, all this other stuff people go on about, is God everything or a part of everything, inside or outside the universe, personal or impersonal, male or female or neither, what details, what trivia, when that matter is is the existence of God, why waste time with such little things, just open yourself up to God, drink God like water.

 

[Quintessence]

Some excellent follow-ups, @Kirran

What do people think is gained from worship of God?

This is oh so important. It is a question I think we need to ask more often, especially in the face of naysayers and grumps. I think there are two things that seem to be common threads throughout various theistic religions where theism becomes a practice:

1) Worship of the gods instills a sense of connectedness with something other or greater than yourself.

2) Worship of the gods instills a sense of humility and gratitude.​

Those are main things for me, anyway. It seems to hold true for other theistic religious traditions, but they would best speak for themselves, yes? These two things are very important. It helps build inner and outer peace, and a positive attitude towards things.

Does suffering exist as a part of God? If suffering is a part of God, is it inherently good?

There is nothing that is not gods to someone like me whose theology includes pantheism, so yes, what humans label as "suffering" is a god or of gods too. I'll refrain from addressing that second question, because it is answered in the third.

Is God inherently good, bad or neutral?

The gods are inherently what they are, and nothing more and nothing less. It is very important to separate our ideas about the gods from what the gods actually are. The description of a thing is not the thing. When it comes to attributes like this, I strongly feel that any assessments of "goodness" and "badness" are value judgements. They are not inherent qualities, they are ways that we judge things based on our values. We all something "good" if we personally like it, and "bad" if we do not. The truth is, I think, that all things simply are what they are and have their role to play in the Weave.

There are a very few gods I would call inherently good or bad - and that would be things like the Spirit of Good and the Spirit of Bad as they are, by definition, goodness and badness. Funny thing about those spirits is they will look different depending on who is naming them!

Is there an inherently correct morality which is derived from God?

I am a moral nihilist, so I would say there is no morality at all; there is no good/bad, right/wrong, there just... is. There are, however, ethical standards to which we may choose to hold ourselves to, based on our values. Those values can certainly be derived from the gods, and following virtues related to certain gods is a demonstration of devotion to those gods.

 

[ratikala]

I think you are right yes. This is what I mean when I say that even evil is part of God because we don't really understand the greater Mind of God. As you said a few times (or was it Kirran, sorry if I quote the wrong person here) it is due to our ignorance. In that moment the Judas betrayed Jesus it was evil (in some stage around there one of the Gospels says that Satan took hold of Judas), this is from our point of view and I think it will take us a while to not immediately judge every situation as either good or evil but just let it be). From Jesus' point of view, as you said, He accepted it because He knew the greater picture and was fully aware of God in Him. Lol I struggled with exactly that same thing in the Bhagavad Gita as well.

I've no wish to offend any christian by giving an inturpretation of the Bible , but seen from the perspective of the Gita , ...Jesus being the son of God knows as God knows , and as is saod in the Gita , ....never was there a time when you or I did not exist , .....nor is there a tme when the soul will cease to exist , . ...one who knows this is not perturbed by death of the body because the soul is eternal .....even if Judas in this instance betrays Christ , ...it is the body only that is crusified , the soul being eternal canot be killed , if Judas betrays Christ , themn is it all part of a divine plan to illustrate the ability of the soul to rise and be born again , in which case there may appear to be evil at work as observing this from the material platform only there is betrayal and death , but ultimatly this betrayal and death illustrates a far more valuable principle , ..as was not christs rising from the dead proof enough of his divinity without Judas's action the entire path of Christianity would never have arrisen therefore Judas is a pivotal part in a divine play but not evil .

It certainly feels as if God is only in some places at some times. I for one love to go to churches, temples, other places of worship and to nature as well because I always feel very close to God in such places. I think one of the reasons it feels like this is because we spent a lot of our time focusing on God in these specific places and also on specific times. But it shouldn't be this way - who should actually be focusing on God every where at all times. I agree with Ratikala that our perception gets in the way of understanding.

yes , this closeness is beautifull , and in silence it also exists , ...but I undrstand what you mean about a place dedicated to god , where we go and where so many others have gone to be in his presence , ...they are non worldly places , yet I have this same feeling here in many natural places , ...particularly in woodland and near water , they are his places where mankind have not left their mark on the landscape , .....

I'm not sure I understand this question completely - do you mean does God suffer or do you mean does God allow suffering? If it is the first - as I was raised Christian I've always been confused by the Jewish extreme anger of God and the Christian extreme sadness of God which I saw in the Bible and heard in Church. My father, for one, is completely unable to think that God might actually be laughing all the time or feeling nothing. As for me, I think God have various emotions and some of these might cause Him to suffer though I don't think it's in exactly the same way we think of suffering.
If it's the second - I think God does allow suffering, and before we go into the whole why does God allow suffering if He is Supreme - I think God allows it for us to grow spiritually whether this is being done consciously or unconsciously.
In both these cases I don't think it is good or bad but how we react and to it is what is important.

Lord Buddha's explanation for this may help , ....suffering is inherent in the cycle of birth , old age sickness and death , so utill we are able to break this cycle we are traped in Dukka suffering or unsatisfactoriness , ...only through liberation do we escape this Cycle , only through understanding the true nature of reality do we atain liberation , knowing the true nature of reality is understanding that we are not this temporary material body , ...all the while we identify with the material world and the material body we will experience the illusion of suffering , ...yet it is an illusion as it is not our true nature .

I was still Conservative Christian in my ideas and fresh out of school when I went to minister to prisoners with my dad in 2005. While there was preaching and testimonies each of us had one prisoner designated to us with whom we had to have conversations on the love of God for them no matter what they did wrong on the outside. What I didn't know on the first and second day was that those prisoners who wanted to accept Jesus or needed prayer in general was taken to another room and that even when there was no prisoners in that room those who were on duty kept on praying and worshiping continuously. On the third and last day I was called together with my dad to help out in this room. As I walked into the room it felt as if I walked straight into a thick wall of mist or smoke, I felt a continuous tingling feeling all over my body and with each breath I took it felt as if my intestines floated. It was the weirdest most amazing experience I've ever had and made me realize that the more you worship God the more He will make His presence felt.

one might say this is the power of prayer , ...or one could say it is the gift of Faith , ...I firmly beleive that despite all religious denominations etc , ...we all have faith in common , this is our greatest strength , it belongs to no one tradition but to all .

thank you I am realy enjoying these conversations , ....

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram Kiran ji

Then you win, ratikala

Me not playing to win just to enjoy thinking , ...all participating here win something of value I hope

too many nice coments to reply to , ..hee hee I am too tired will pick up again in the morning

Blessings to all

 

[ratikala]

namaskaram

For me, no, I don't think so. Because everything is godly, absolutely everything. Goodness is a quality we ascribe to anything. But, as the Daoists say, everything is perfect.

I think I was coming at it from the point of just and un just , ethicaly sound ethicaly unsound , ....although ultimatly yes , everything is God , .therefore everything is perfect , some people might not like the use of the word prefect , in which case , .everything is within order !... on a conventional level everything we do falls in to the categories of just and un just pure and impure supportive of order or against order . unsuportive or inharmonious , .....to me one can only say everything is perfect in the ultimate sence , ...otherwise on a conventional level this leads to chaos , ....we need to be aware of our duty to remain in harmony with the world and with Gods order .

this to me is where Dharma and Adharma come in , ..with Gods order or against Gods order , .....

They were for everyone my friend, answer away We're just about loving God on this thread.

jai jai , and about not minding about how another sees God as God supteme or as Gods with individual functions

What do people think is gained from worship of God?

This is oh so important. It is a question I think we need to ask more often, especially in the face of naysayers and grumps. I think there are two things that seem to be common threads throughout various theistic religions where theism becomes a practice:

1) Worship of the gods instills a sense of connectedness with something other or greater than yourself.

2) Worship of the gods instills a sense of humility and gratitude.
Those are main things for me, anyway. It seems to hold true for other theistic religious traditions, but they would best speak for themselves, yes? These two things are very important. It helps build inner and outer peace, and a positive attitude towards things.

jai jai , this conectedness is so so important , ....''and with something greater than one self ''....to me is equaly important , .....and yes , this brings the humility that opens us to far greater experiences of God and to being at one with that greatness , ..

and the ''gratitude'' , is in my mind what helps us to be better people , ...

there is something to me about the theistic veiw that because of the understanding of God / Gods is not only Greatfull but Joyfull , ...therefore as beings there is a feeling of interconectedness and sharing , ...this to me is far more important than all this philosopical wrangling and theorising , ...I dont care if one says God and another Gods , ...I am just gladened that there is an accknowledgenment of something greater in their life