Most of the month, I think.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
A question for non-theists
- Thread starter Chevalier Violet
- Start date
Most of the month, I think.
I'd agree, except that they more often happen when one is in meditation and entirely calm and at peace.
crystalonyx
Well-Known Member
So taking a tranquilizer helps?
Do you think it might have anything to do with the chemicals that are released when you feel like that?
Even if so, and I think it is so, the question then becomes is the experience caused by the release of chemicals, or is the release of chemicals caused by the experience?
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
Since there is no God, there cannot be a vision of God, it can only be hallucination.
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
One of the meanings of the word vision according to dictionary.com is akin to hallucination. So, in short, the word vision harmonizes with your belief system.
You're right that another meaning of the word vision is a perception of something real. I recommend you hear the word in the way you want it to be heard. In fact, the reason I chose that word was so that theists and non-theists could quite literally speak the same language when describing the experience.
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
As a young boy growing up in a Pentacostal church, I was taught that one of the most important evidences of god's calling in a person's life is that the person begins to speak in tongues. After literally years of prayer and wondering why god was rejecting me even though I so desperately wanted to serve him more fully, I was at a prayer service and suddenly began to babble incoherently as if it were not me speaking. I was incredibly overjoyed and filled with energy like I had never felt before and would only years later be able to compare to sex. I continued to have similar experiences, though not with the same intensity or vividness, whenever I prayed.
But only a little while after, one of the first inclinations I had toward disbelief occurred when I discovered that with intense concentration I could reproduce the experience at will, without prayer or any attempt at communion with god involved. This lead to bouts of guilt and remorse for my doubts and unbelief, which eventually turned to complete disgust with the falseness of the experience, though not before a lot of mental anguish. Eventually I stopped attempting to speak in tongues, and (about three years ago) stopped praying entirely. But even now I'm sure that if I wanted to speak in tongues as intensely as I did then, I could speak in tongues again.
So that's my experience with "visions" and how I still managed to turn out atheist.
But only a little while after, one of the first inclinations I had toward disbelief occurred when I discovered that with intense concentration I could reproduce the experience at will, without prayer or any attempt at communion with god involved. This lead to bouts of guilt and remorse for my doubts and unbelief, which eventually turned to complete disgust with the falseness of the experience, though not before a lot of mental anguish. Eventually I stopped attempting to speak in tongues, and (about three years ago) stopped praying entirely. But even now I'm sure that if I wanted to speak in tongues as intensely as I did then, I could speak in tongues again.
So that's my experience with "visions" and how I still managed to turn out atheist.
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
The experience of a "vision of god," that is, the "hallucinatory experience" of perceiving god. For an atheist, this is an experience or perception the same way as a mirage or other more standard religious visions.
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
That's awesome. I've been trying to speak in tongues for a while now... it is one religious experience I haven't had myself. I'm jealous.
In any case, to bring this a bit closer to my question: when you pray, did you have a "vision of god"? Please see the OP for a definition of a "vision of god".
Thanks for sharing, that was very interesting. Got any pointers for somebody trying to speak in tongues?
CV
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
If I were to number these 1-5, then 1, 2, and 5 definitely apply to my experience. 3 and 4 I am not as sure.
By "not perceived materially through normal five senses" do you mean not exclusively? My difficulty with this is that most of the sensations I felt weren't strictly within the five traditional senses. I did have the sensation of hearing someone else speak, though using my body to do it.
Within Pentecostal tradition, speaking in tongues is a sign of god's favor, so I might view this as a sign, but if by this you mean that it was something which could not occur by coincidence, I definitely don't think it could have occurred by coincidence outside of a religious context.
The key ingredient for me was to want it more than anything. I think my desire to experience speaking in tongues was so extreme that one could consider it an unhealthy obsession. This is something to be careful about; while my actual experience was a positive one, the emotions necessary to bring it about were not as positive.
Also, while many other people describe their religious experiences as happening in quiet and relaxation, my experience was the opposite. When I first spoke in tongues I was surrounded by perhaps 80 people, all praying aloud, some crying, and intense music was playing (not particularly fast, but very loud since I was near the altar). Additionally two people were praying for me aloud directly with their hands on my shoulders and head. Overall I would consider the situation more fervored than relaxed.
Last edited:
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.
I wrote:
Good question, thanks for asking. As you know, with these 5 conditions I am referring to a "vision of god." So the question is if you saw or heard god through your material five senses. I think "traditional" senses sums it up - I think the word material sums it up too. Although I have often had the impression of seeing god or hearing god, this was not through my material, or traditional senses.
Does this make more sense?
And if you don't already have visions of god when you join them, I think you have good reason not to be very impressed!
Take care,
CV
I wrote:
Good question, thanks for asking. As you know, with these 5 conditions I am referring to a "vision of god." So the question is if you saw or heard god through your material five senses. I think "traditional" senses sums it up - I think the word material sums it up too. Although I have often had the impression of seeing god or hearing god, this was not through my material, or traditional senses.
Does this make more sense?
Keep in mind that I'm referring to visions of god here. Did you have a vision of god while speaking in tongues? In this case, you wouldn't be finding an evidence or experience of god only through a sign (speaking in tongues), but also in the vision. The vision is the concern for now. And most find the latter far more persuasive.
Thanks for the tip.
Wow, that's so intense man!! The pentacostals are nuts, but I have to say I kind of love em for it. They are not everybody's cup of tea that's for sure.
And if you don't already have visions of god when you join them, I think you have good reason not to be very impressed!
Take care,
CV
Last edited:
Imagist
Worshipper of Athe.
I guess that would classify my experience as not a vision? Just curious.
To me, a vision means seeing some visible image or form (from an athiest perspective, a visual hallucination). Under this definition, no, I did not experience a vision while speaking in tongues.
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
That's a fair question. And I understand your confusion - this miscommunication isn't really either of our faults. This has more to do with the limitations of language - or at least how seldom we discuss these subjects normally. The main thing I want to say is, when I say "vision of god", I don't mean to imply too many of the visual connotations of the word vision. If you think about a shaman's vision, aka a spiritual vision, it is not just a visual experience. There can be sound, taste, feeling. Sometimes the shaman sees nothing at all. It might be just an auditory "vision".
Just a word about why I chose the word "vision of god" as opposed to experience, or something else. The way I saw it, no word or phrase would be perfect. The main advantage I see with the phrase "vision of god" is that the word vision is wonderfully ambiguous. A spiritual "vision" is not necessarily just seeing something. I like that ambiguity. And the word vision is palatable to both atheists and theists because a vision can be a hallucination or something real.
But you're absolutely right. I don't think I've been careful enough to de-emphasize the visual connotations of the word vision.
Does that make more sense? If it doesn't make sense yet, the next paragraph will help as well.
Here is a point that will help you understand what I mean. Have you ever asked a theist what god looks like, or what god's voice sounds like? This is another example of the limitations of language.
Most people who have only recently begun having "visions of god" will be able to tell you a bit about what god looks like or sounds like. But those who become more familiar with the experience will often tell you that they never see a visual of god at all. God is just a presence to them. So for them, a vision of god isn't so much a visual stimulus thing. They know what I'm talking about, more or less. But it's not visual. It is just a feeling.
Similarly, if you ask the more experienced what god's voice sounds like, they say well actually god didn't really say that many words. Many describe exchanges with god as more an exchange of raw emotions, images: pure thought.
To think of a "vision of god" as visual stimuli only is misleading. Many actually don't see anything, even in imaginary terms. They just exchange raw thoughts with a sentient presence. Hard to explain, but very different from imagining things.
So my question for you about the speaking in tongues isn't so much did you have any visual stimuli. My question would be, did you feel a presence. It seems to me that it's probably possible to speak in tongues without feeling the presence of a sentient something.
Does that make more sense? And please bear with me, language is ill-suited to convey these experiences.
Thanks for all the questions, this is good practice to describe the nearly-indescribable.
CV
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
Hey, thanks for taking the time to clear that up with me. That must have been a wild experience.
Two questions for you as a follow-up, just for my own curiosity.
1.) Did you have the impression that this presence was "what people call god"? As opposed to, I don't know, a dead grandmother. It seems to me we have the "vision" part down, I just want to make sure the "of god" part is there too.
2.) You're a non-theist now?
Best wishes,
CV
PS Maybe you didn't know what it was. That's ok too.
Last edited:
Chevalier Violet
Active Member
Also, in case you're curious, here is a discussion about the "of god" part of "vision of god":
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/1220015-post90.html
(maybe scroll down to the second quote)