a question for Muslims , The Christians and Jews are Kofar (disbelievers) or not?

[Badran]

I voted i don't know for more than one reason. First being that the word kafir has more than one sense, and so, i can't judge generally like that. Second because in its most common usage, it contains intentions, and thus is something i can not judge especially in such a collective fashion.

The Quranic usage of the word, and its description of certain people with it works in more than one way (as in the word is used in more than one meaning) and there is not one single instance i'm aware of where it applies the word to all the people of the book, past and present. At the very least, in the sense i think its most used with (someone who willfully or knowingly refuses one of god's commands).

 

[Godobeyer]

I voted i don't know for more than one reason. First being that the word kafir has more than one sense, and so, i can't judge generally like that. Second because in its most common usage, it contains intentions, and thus is something i can not judge especially in such a collective fashion.

The Quranic usage of the word, and its description of certain people with it works in more than one way (as in the word is used in more than one meaning) and there is not one single instance i'm aware of where it applies the word to all the people of the book, past and present. At the very least, in the sense i think its most used with (someone who willfully or knowingly refuses one of god's commands).

don't enough for them that they disbelieve and deny Muhammad (pbuh) and Quran ?
to reach the labbel "Kafir" !!!!

did not read the verses of Quran in my first post !!! (they indeed disbelieve .....etc ) LAKAD KAFAR ?
لقد كفر

 

[Badran]

don't enough for them that they disbelieve and deny Muhammad (pbuh) and Quran ?
to reach the labbel "Kafir" !!!!

Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since you didn't clarify which sense of kofar are you using!!!!!!!!!!!

did not read the verses of Quran in my first post !!!

I did!!!!!!!!!!!

(they indeed disbelieve .....etc ) LAKAD KAFAR ?
لقد كفر

Since i've already explained this extensively in the other thread, and since i already know that for some reason, you keep missing the meaning of what i post, or misunderstand it, please don't be offended by my lack of inclination to waste my labor again by trying to explain the matter.

If you want any clarity on my position, feel free to read any of my posts there and the articles i posted.

 

[Godobeyer]

Nope!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Since you didn't clarify which sense of kofar are you using!!!!!!!!!!!

sense that Allah said in arabic , how He called their faith in verses :"indeed they have disbelieve "Kafar "

I did!!!!!!!!!!!

good

Since i've already explained this extensively in the other thread, and since i already know that for some reason, you keep missing the meaning of what i post, or misunderstand it, please don't be offended by my lack of inclination to waste my labor again by trying to explain the matter.

If you want any clarity on my position, feel free to read any of my posts there and the articles i posted.

i want to you to clarify to us more your position , and tell us whom the kind of people that we used them the word "Kafar" ?

 

[Badran]

sense that Allah , how He called them in verses :"indeed they are disbelieve "Kafar "

i want to you to clarify to us more your position , and tell us whom the kind of people that we used them the word "Kafar" ?

I just posted in the other thread now clarifying more.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

To believe in the previous scriptures is part of Islamic belief, one who does not believe that Moses, David, Jesus and Muhammed received a revelation from God is disbelief. So too if one does not believe that other Prophets, not all, received some scrolls differing in number from Prophet to Prophet.

The third and fourth pillar of Islamic belief is the Belief in the Books of Allah and the Belief in the Messengers of Allah.

If a Christian accepts everything up to Jesus peace be upon him and rejects everything else after (Muhammed and the Qur'an) then by Islamic law they are disbelievers.

How can on be a believer if they accept some of Gods laws as true and reject some others? Indeed the Jews and Christians worship the same God as the Muslims, but how can they be believers if they reject the command of God to accept his final Messenger and his final Law to humanity?

*Nods*

Perhaps I have poorly explained myself, what I was trying to say is that while it may be possible for someone to believe in many of the same things, however if you ask about more specific things - such as their acceptance of Muhammed as a Prophet or the truths revealed within the Qur'an then they may disbelieve in THOSE, as opposed to disbelieving in Allah entirely; as such they are disbelievers in the Prophet or in the Qur'an as opposed to disbelievers of Allah, they may indeed be poorly informed about Allah because they disbelieve in the Prophet or in the Qur'an, but their ignorance of Allah (because of their disbelief in the Prophet) is not the same as disbelief in Allah.

 

[Gharib]

*Nods*

Perhaps I have poorly explained myself, what I was trying to say is that while it may be possible for someone to believe in many of the same things, however if you ask about more specific things - such as their acceptance of Muhammed as a Prophet or the truths revealed within the Qur'an then they may disbelieve in THOSE, as opposed to disbelieving in Allah entirely; as such they are disbelievers in the Prophet or in the Qur'an as opposed to disbelievers of Allah, they may indeed be poorly informed about Allah because they disbelieve in the Prophet or in the Qur'an, but their ignorance of Allah (because of their disbelief in the Prophet) is not the same as disbelief in Allah.

My apologies, I didn't understand your previous post in this same way. What you say is true.

 

[sumaidi]

its enough to call whom disbeliever of 1 verse in qur,an as kafar.

 

[F0uad]

Of my understanding Christians and Jews are not '''Kaffirs'' (Unbelievers) but they do some acts that is unbelief, hence all people who are not muslim are unbelievers in a way by not believing in the Quran being a revelation or Mohammed(saws) being a messenger of god. Its not that they are ''UNBELIEVERS'' in god but they do not belief what was revealed or practice things that are contradicting with Islamic teachings.

 

[F0uad]

sense that Allah said in arabic , how He called their faith in verses :"indeed they have disbelieve "Kafar "



good



i want to you to clarify to us more your position , and tell us whom the kind of people that we used them the word "Kafar" ?

Like i mentioned above they have disbelief meaning a act of disbelieving that doesn't make them kafir.

I think the verse says Kaffaroo and not Kaffir since Kaffaroo is mentioned in the way of acting/believing and Kaffir as label for a person.

The Word Kafir is used for atheist/unbelievers in god.

 

[sumaidi]

the word "kaffir/kafar" may be too extreme and sound hurt. we can change this with disbeliever / unbeliever. for me, believe a part and disbelieve other parts, they called unbeliever. only Allah knows best.

but however christians and jews are muslim's "brother" (abrahamic religion)

 

[gnostic]

I know this thread is for Muslims only, but I'd like to pose just a couple questions about the your topic, Godobeyer...so you may answer them if you wish or not, but I do promise you that I'll respectfully not argue with you over whatever your answers. I just want clarification.

Your question states if the Jews and Christians are talking about are disbelievers or not.

Are saying that they disbelieve in god or disbelieve in Islam?

For they (god & religion) are not the one and the same.

Second: in your poll you wrote:

the People of the Book, are Kofar (disbelievers) or not?

Aren't the "Book of the People", like all the prophets in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures? Are you calling Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc are all disbelievers?

 

[F0uad]

I know this thread is for Muslims only, but I'd like to pose just a couple questions about the your topic, Godobeyer...so you may answer them if you wish or not, but I do promise you that I'll respectfully not argue with you over whatever your answers. I just want clarification.

Your question states if the Jews and Christians are talking about are disbelievers or not.

Are saying that they disbelieve in god or disbelieve in Islam?

For they (god & religion) are not the one and the same.

Second: in your poll you wrote:


Aren't the "Book of the People", like all the prophets in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures? Are you calling Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc are all disbelievers?

No the prophets are not disbelievers ''the people of the book'' are also never referred to the prophets but to Christians And Jews in the time of Mohammed(saws). I think he confused Kaffaroo with Kafir since the verse clearly says they acted/did a act of disbelief this doesn't mean they are fully Kaffir (denying god), for example some Christians are also mentioned as Mushriekens (associating god with others).

 

[gnostic]

I think he confused Kaffaroo with Kafir

Do you mean Godobeyer is confused?

 

[Gharib]

I know this thread is for Muslims only, but I'd like to pose just a couple questions about the your topic, Godobeyer...so you may answer them if you wish or not, but I do promise you that I'll respectfully not argue with you over whatever your answers. I just want clarification.

Your question states if the Jews and Christians are talking about are disbelievers or not.

Are saying that they disbelieve in god or disbelieve in Islam?

For they (god & religion) are not the one and the same.

Second: in your poll you wrote:


Aren't the "Book of the People", like all the prophets in the Judaeo-Christian scriptures? Are you calling Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, etc are all disbelievers?

They disbelieve in both. It is stated in the Qur'an that all 3 worship the same God. However, the Jews and Christians disobeyed the command of God to accept Muhammed peace be upon him as the last messenger. So they are disbelievers in God and Islam. They do not believe the final revelation sent to humanity by God through Muhammed peace be upon him.

The 'People of the Book" are the followers of Moses and Jesus peace be upon them. They are the people to whom revelation was sent (ie. a book). The Prophets are not referred to as 'People of the Book'.

 

[Pegg]

if Allah considerate them disbelievers in the Quran as you said , why YOU and other muslims considerate them believers ?

we may not believe the Quran is a book from God, but we do believe the Hebrew and Greek scriptures are. And we do worship the one true God of Abraham. So we most certainly are believers.

to us the Quran is an apocryphal scripture....its historical and interesting but not inspired by God. Perhaps that is what Mohammad meant when he said we are disbelievers???

 

[Pegg]

They disbelieve in both. It is stated in the Qur'an that all 3 worship the same God. However, the Jews and Christians disobeyed the command of God to accept Muhammed peace be upon him as the last messenger. So they are disbelievers in God and Islam.

Can you point out where in the holy books of the hebrews or christians it is explained that God will send Mohammad for us to follow??

 

[gnostic]

Pegg. This is a Same Faith Debates. Since you're not Muslims (as well as I), you should not be putting your view in this thread, so no debating and no argument. I'd suggest that you start your own thread if you want elsewhere.

 

[gnostic]

The 'People of the Book" are the followers of Moses and Jesus peace be upon them. They are the people to whom revelation was sent (ie. a book). The Prophets are not referred to as 'People of the Book'.

Thank you, eselam. I thought that "People of the Book" referred to the actual people within the scriptures.

 

[Gharib]

Thank you, eselam. I thought that "People of the Book" referred to the actual people within the scriptures.

No, it refers to the people to whom the scripture was sent to (this doesn't include the Prophet to whom it was sent)