A question about death

[Aupmanyav]

I'm a little unclear as to what your question is? I see you identify as Hindu, but your last question suggests a more atheist philosophical approach.

You are right, I am an atheist 'advaitist' (believer in non-duality), so there is no God for me, no heaven, no hell, no final judgement, no birth, no death, no re-birth. Who would judge me if I am what exists? How can I die if I am what exists and which is eternal?

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

Sure but... Why would you reason that if there is nothing after this life and we are all dust afterwards that if you believed that you could kill and rob banks?

I ask because I believe this is it and there is nothing after and I dont think it is right to kill and rob banks etc... What brought you to that belief?

Lol, many of the religious people that I know think that atheists are just a step away from criminal. They seem to think that no religion to dictate right and wrong equates with no morality. They think that someone who does not believe they will be punished in death for crimes against other humans is someone who essentially has no repercussions and therefore no reason not to take what they want, treat people like crap, and even commit horrendous crimes without fear of ultimate retribution. I even got into a debate with a respected newspaper columnist in a major city because his article claimed that a rise in juvenile crime was due to them not attending church and being taught evolution. He seemed to think that the idea that we are meaningless specks in an entire universe is what drives teenagers to delinquent activity. And he got REALLY mad when I laughed at that!

I'm not saying that I believe this, I was more trying to clarify that I do not.

 

[challupa]

Interesting posts... The being dead doesn't seem to be what scares me, it's the dying part. I don't like pain, plain and simple.

However, having said that, I have been with quite a few people when they are dying. Working in nursing homes has made this a common occurance for me. I have had some very interesting experiences with people who are close to death, hours to be precise. There is something that continues to intrigue me and that is how clear some people get right at the end. Some have been pretty much unconcious or had dementia or alzheimers and at the end they are amazingly coherent and clear. Not all, but definitely some.

Another thing that I have had quite a bit is the dying person reporting seeing something that I couldn't see. Many times it seems to bring such peace that I wish I could see what they are seeing for sure! Even those who could not talk would open their eyes, get this absolute amazing look on their faces and point to something half way up the wall or the ceiling and smile. I always feel like an intruder at that point and a little in awe myself at being able to witness this.

I was once a cut and dried atheist, but I would have to say I am now more agnostic. I just cannot reconcile what I have seen and not question I guess. Anyway, just thought I'd share that. I don't know what to make of it, but it really feels real when it happens...

 

[Sententia]

Interesting posts... The being dead doesn't seem to be what scares me, it's the dying part. I don't like pain, plain and simple.

However, having said that, I have been with quite a few people when they are dying. Working in nursing homes has made this a common occurance for me. I have had some very interesting experiences with people who are close to death, hours to be precise. There is something that continues to intrigue me and that is how clear some people get right at the end. Some have been pretty much unconcious or had dementia or alzheimers and at the end they are amazingly coherent and clear. Not all, but definitely some.

Another thing that I have had quite a bit is the dying person reporting seeing something that I couldn't see. Many times it seems to bring such peace that I wish I could see what they are seeing for sure! Even those who could not talk would open their eyes, get this absolute amazing look on their faces and point to something half way up the wall or the ceiling and smile. I always feel like an intruder at that point and a little in awe myself at being able to witness this.

I was once a cut and dried atheist, but I would have to say I am now more agnostic. I just cannot reconcile what I have seen and not question I guess. Anyway, just thought I'd share that. I don't know what to make of it, but it really feels real when it happens...

I would say its the brain: Jill Bolte Taylor's powerful stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

 

[challupa]

I would say its the brain: Jill Bolte Taylor's powerful stroke of insight | Video on TED.com

Yes I have seen that and also read her book. I thought it was fascinating. I did get a feeling from her talk Oprah though that she believed her right hemisphere gave her insight into how existence operated (for lack of a better way of putting it). I distinctly got the impression that this insight made her realize it wasn't all about the physical realm and that in fact this realm was pretty much an illusion created by the left hemisphere. What did you get from it?

 

[Aupmanyav]

I liked the video. I also think that near-death experiences, no pain, floating sensation, appearance of diffused pastel light, seeing one's own body and others as something not connected to them, someone holding their hands and leading through a tunnel to a white out; are very much physical, caused by shutting down of brain centers to save oxygen. The pain center is first to close down, and so is the motor center, those being useless in the situation.

I further extend that the same sort of thing occurs even in animals, and that a deer in the jaws of a lion thinks that it is frolicking in grassy savanna with its friends and sees its mother lead it through the tunnel.

So, CelticRawenwolf, do not be afraid. Death is a peaceful process, evolution somehow has made it like that.

 

[challupa]

I liked the video. I also think that near-death experiences, no pain, floating sensation, appearance of diffused pastel light, seeing one's own body and others as something not connected to them, someone holding their hands and leading through a tunnel to a white out; are very much physical, caused by shutting down of brain centers to save oxygen. The pain center is first to close down, and so is the motor center, those being useless in the situation.

I have heard that side of it of course. I have also heard pretty compelling refuttals to that. There have been studies done where doctors have tried to duplicate the NDE and they have been able to duplicate the visuals to some degree. However, the thing they have not been able to duplicate is the differences between the induced NDE and the reported NDE. When the person who experienced an induced NDE returns to the conscious state, there are no changes in their beliefs or behaviors. On the other hand, NDE reporters usually undergo a life change. It seems to alter their whole perception of life. An example is people who were quite religious before having an NDE and after deciding that religion wasn't important. They believed in a spirituality that was inclusive instead of restricting and boxed into any one religious belief system. There are many examples of perspectives changing completely after a reported NDE. So I don't know why there is such differences, but I do find it immensely intriguing.

There are also the reports from NDE where they are able to tell doctors and nurses things that they should have not known because they had coded. Yet they are able to tell them exactly what happened and what was said during the time of no vital signs. The most compelling one I have heard was told by a blind woman that coded and when she was rescuitated she told people that had been working on her the color of their clothes, what they were doing and where they were in the room. There seems to be something more to these experiences than merely a brain shutting down due to lack of oxygen. Definitely interesting in any case...

 

[CelticRavenwolf]

I liked the video. I also think that near-death experiences, no pain, floating sensation, appearance of diffused pastel light, seeing one's own body and others as something not connected to them, someone holding their hands and leading through a tunnel to a white out; are very much physical, caused by shutting down of brain centers to save oxygen. The pain center is first to close down, and so is the motor center, those being useless in the situation.

I further extend that the same sort of thing occurs even in animals, and that a deer in the jaws of a lion thinks that it is frolicking in grassy savanna with its friends and sees its mother lead it through the tunnel.

So, CelticRavenwolf, do not be afraid. Death is a peaceful process, evolution somehow has made it like that.

Fear death? Not on your life!

Lol, turns out that atheists aren't immune to idealistic beliefs after all. Looks like even without religion you still have the need to believe that there is something of comfort in death.

Having witnessed the death of many an animal I don't really think that they're imagining themselves in a better place as the blissfully fade away! The act of death itself can be a brutal thing, though I don't doubt the capacity for a peaceful passing.

The popsicles are in bloom...

 

[Aupmanyav]

We are all making our guesses. You have not been there, I have not been there. I guess from the reported near-death experiences, that is the closest we know of. If they were different I would have theorized differently.

 

[challupa]

We are all making our guesses. You have not been there, I have not been there. I guess from the reported near-death experiences, that is the closest we know of. If they were different I would have theorized differently.

Very true. Unless we experience one and I'm not jumping for the chance LOL, we will not know. All we have is reports of others' experiences. It would be interesting to hear of any if anyone on the forum has experienced one though.

 

[Luminous]

You cannot eat from the Tree of Life if you are eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

[challupa]

You cannot eat from the Tree of Life if you are eating from the Tree of Knowledge.

Okay I'll bite LOL, why not??

 

[Luminous]

Blessed are those who know that non know more than God : (agnostics)

 

[Stevo]

frankly when i die, the most ill fear is the actual pain part.
Otherwise, im happy, cos i would of lived my life the way i have, and when i die, itll be just like before i was born; without consciousness, so i wont care in the slightest.