A puzzle in Aristotle... (frubals for answer)

[angellous_evangellous]

Frubals to the person(s) who solves this riddle.

In the quote below, Aristotle says that in his perfect world, people should limit the number of children that they have by (1) killing children by exposure and (2) aborting children before they have senses.

Why does Aristotle allow for children to be exposed and yet require abortions before they can feel anything?

Aristotle, Politics book 7, section 1335b
As to exposing or rearing the children born, let there be a law that no deformed child shall be reared; but on the ground of number of children, if the regular customs hinder any of those born being exposed, there must be a limit fixed to the procreation of offspring, and if any people have a child as a result of intercourse in contravention of these regulations, abortion must be practised on it before it has developed sensation and life; for the line between lawful and unlawful abortion will be marked by the fact of having sensation and being alive. (6.24)

 

[angellous_evangellous]

... no tries, not even for a frubal...

 

[doppelganger]

This section of Aristoyle is actually cited by the SCOTUS in Roe v Wade for what would become the "fetal viability" compromise. This translation is a little tricky, but what I think he means is that where local customs allow it excess numbers of children or deformed children should be left to exposure, but where they don't, abortion should be used but only before sensations are possible. It's a compromise for cultures that won't allow exposure perhaps.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This section of Aristoyle is actually cited by the SCOTUS in Roe v Wade for what would become the "fetal viability" compromise. This translation is a little tricky, but what I think he means is that where local customs allow it excess numbers of children or deformed children should be left to exposure, but where they don't, abortion should be used but only before sensations are possible. It's a compromise for cultures that won't allow exposure perhaps.

Yes, this is quite true, but it does not address what puzzles me. The paradox which needs to be solved is that Aristotle on the one hand supports exposure (obviously after the child has sensation), but on the other requires that abortions be performed before the fetus gains sensation.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My solution is that Aristotle thinks that deformed children that can be exposed don't have sensation and therefore can be naked to the elements, whereas any children in the womb can be aborted (surgically or with poison) before they can feel anything (they couldn't tell the difference between deformed or normal fetuses...).

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This is a very depressing subject. I don't know if I can finish it.

 

[doppelganger]

This translation might help:

As to the exposure and rearing of children, let there be a law that
no deformed child shall live, but that on the ground of an excess in
the number of children, if the established customs of the state forbid
this (for in our state population has a limit), no child is to be
exposed, but when couples have children in excess, let abortion be
procured before sense and life have begun; what may or may not be
lawfully done in these cases depends on the question of life and
sensation.

This version reads that abortion should be used to control the number of children, while exposure may be used for deformed children. Maybe.

 

[doppelganger]

My solution is that Aristotle thinks that deformed children that can be exposed don't have sensation and therefore can be naked to the elements,

Or more simply, you can't know if they are deformed until after they are born, in which case, he's making an exception to his "sensation" rule for "deformed" children.

I don't think "philosopher-kings" would be all that much of an improvement.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This version reads that abortion should be used to control the number of children, while exposure may be used for deformed children. Maybe.

That's exactly my conclusion. Exposure for deformed children only. Or perhaps abortion before sensation is the qualifier for people who are averse to exposure in the first place... that is, they are worried about the child feeling anything, so they can abort before the child can feel pain.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Or more simply, you can't know if they are deformed until after they are born, in which case, he's making an exception to his "sensation" rule for "deformed" children.

I don't think "philosopher-kings" would be all that much of an improvement.

I feel the same way sometimes... But while the ancient philosophers have their flaws, it is better than the alternative (thoughtless barbarism).

 

[McBell]

I read a while back that many people are mistakenly thinking that Aristotle is using the word exposure to mean to exposing deformed children to the elements.
The article claims that that Aristotle was using the term exposure to mean exposing them to life lessons.

The translation presented by Dopp seems to further support the article.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I read a while back that many people are mistakenly thinking that Aristotle is using the word exposure to mean to exposing deformed children to the elements.
The article claims that that Aristotle was using the term exposure to mean exposing them to life lessons.

The translation presented by Dopp seems to further support the article.

That would be a very biased reading which paints Aristotle in an artificially positive light.

 

[Francine]

The article claims that that Aristotle was using the term exposure to mean exposing them to life lessons.

Not exposing children to life's lessons will kill them too.

 

[McBell]

That would be a very biased reading which paints Aristotle in an artificially positive light.

I do not disagree with you.
I am merely presenting an idea I read about.

 

[doppelganger]

I read a while back that many people are mistakenly thinking that Aristotle is using the word exposure to mean to exposing deformed children to the elements.
The article claims that that Aristotle was using the term exposure to mean exposing them to life lessons.

The translation presented by Dopp seems to further support the article.

That could be.

As to the exposure and rearing of children, let there be a law that
no deformed child shall live, but that on the ground of an excess in
the number of children, if the established customs of the state forbid
this (for in our state population has a limit), no child is to be
exposed, but when couples have children in excess, let abortion be
procured before sense and life have begun; what may or may not be
lawfully done in these cases depends on the question of life and
sensation.

"Exposure and rearing" of children does seem to suggest that "exposure" is something related to raising children rather than letting them die. But that makes me wonder what "deformed" children have to do with this, since the rest of it speaks to excess numbers of children generally.

 

[doppelganger]

Anybody have a link to Politics in Greek? Or Nate, if you know what word is being translated as "exposure" . . .

 

[doppelganger]

W.L. Newman "The Politics Of Aristotle" reaches the same conclusion as you, Nate:

The Politics of Aristotle - Google Book Search

 

[McBell]

Not exposing children to life's lessons will kill them too.

I disagree.
There are all manner of children who are kept sealed in their parents protective little bubbles.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Frubals to the person(s) who solves this riddle.

In the quote below, Aristotle says that in his perfect world, people should limit the number of children that they have by (1) killing children by exposure and (2) aborting children before they have senses.

Why does Aristotle allow for children to be exposed and yet require abortions before they can feel anything?

Aristotle, Politics book 7, section 1335b
As to exposing or rearing the children born, let there be a law that no deformed child shall be reared; but on the ground of number of children, if the regular customs hinder any of those born being exposed, there must be a limit fixed to the procreation of offspring, and if any people have a child as a result of intercourse in contravention of these regulations, abortion must be practised on it before it has developed sensation and life; for the line between lawful and unlawful abortion will be marked by the fact of having sensation and being alive. (6.24)

For what it's worth, another scholar thinks that Aristotle considers "sensation" to begin at 90th day for males and the 40th day for females (after conception?).

L. P. Wilkinson, "Classical Approaches to Family Planning" Population and Development Review vol 4 no 3 (Sept 1978), page 452.

 

[Don Penguinoini]

In Sparta they used to kill little or funny babies.