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A glance at Saudi government-approved fatwas

Sahar

Well-Known Member
What laws in a secular country would force a Muslim to do anything against his/her views?

Remember that I deeply opposed France's ban on burqas, too, and I don't consider that a good example of how a secular and free country should work.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/95152-secularism-vs-islam.html
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/islam-dir/91739-political-islam.html#post1849228
You can check these threads if you are interested to know what the objection to secularism is.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
No, I was talking about psychoactive substances that lead to judgment impairment and consequently becoming an important factor in violent crimes. Not to mention, there are many drugs that are illegal in secular democracies, so I don't know what you try to argue about.
As for smoking, no one can stop you from smoking but also we shouldn't share in harming others, if you want to harm yourself by yourself, go ahead...but allowing for industries that offer nothing but harm to others is another thing.
Obesity doesn't lead to impaired judgment and is not an important factor in violent crimes.

In what way is religion not a psychoactive thing (even if it isn't a substance) that can lead to judgment impairment and consequently become a factor in violent crimes if taken in excess?

Seriously, I don't see the difference.

Moderation is key. Religion in moderation harms nobody, but take it too far and you plant fertilizer bombs outside buildings in Oklahoma with children or fly airplanes into buildings. Likewise, alcohol in moderation harms nobody, but take it too far and you're driving a car down the wrong way on the interstate highway.

You can't ban something just because some idiots take it too far. My point is that if you're going to ban something just because some idiots abuse it, then there's no excuse not to ban religion. That is, if we're going to be consistent. I'm not a fan of banning either alcohol or religion. If you lived in my country and someone came along that wanted to ban Islam, I'd be right there with you fighting it as the atrocity that it is (trying to ban it, I mean).

As for drugs being illegal in secular societies, there are many instances in which I disagree with their illegality. I don't even use drugs like marijuana but I think it's ridiculous that they're banned. I know many people that enjoy the occasional joint and I don't see any problem with that because they're not idiots -- they don't go driving or out in public, they just hang out with friends mostly playing cards or watching videos when imbibing for casual pleasure. What's the problem there?

You say no one can stop me from smoking but in the next sentence you say it shouldn't be allowed for a company to make cigarettes (if I interpreted you correctly). That's sort of like saying "You have a right to bear arms but nobody can exist that can build you a gun!"

I agree that cigarette companies don't have a very good track record: pitching products to children, making them seem "cool," etc. But I don't smoke because I think it's "cool" and I'm not a child. I smoke because I derive pleasure from it and from enjoying a cigarette with my friends. It's printed clearly on cigarette packages that there's a definite link between cigarette smoking and cancer, but there's also a definite link between hang gliding and broken bones. So what? As an adult I make a cost-benefit judgement. I'm a big girl, I can make that choice. What government has the right to tell me that I can't make that choice for myself?

I agree with disallowing smoke around non-smokers. Non-smokers shouldn't be subjected to something they didn't choose for themselves. But making the production or purchase of cigarettes, or the smoking of cigarettes in designated areas safely away from non-smokers illegal is nonsensical. It's saying "We the government will decide FOR you what's best for you," and that's a scary prospect to me that a government could think it can do that. Can you see where I'm coming from there?
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
Again, you yourself live in a country where many drugs are illegal, it seems some people there think they have the right to stop you from trading in and consuming many drugs... so apparently in secular democracies you don't do anything you want...
If you think illegality of these drugs is tyrannical, you are free...I think the society is much better without them. But why should your view be supreme to mine?
 

Sahar

Well-Known Member
I agree with disallowing smoke around non-smokers. Non-smokers shouldn't be subjected to something they didn't choose for themselves. But making the production or purchase of cigarettes, or the smoking of cigarettes in designated areas safely away from non-smokers illegal is nonsensical. It's saying "We the government will decide FOR you what's best for you," and that's a scary prospect to me that a government could think it can do that. Can you see where I'm coming from there?
Yes, I see but I disagree (the issue of smoking stems from my understanding, I could be wrong).
Again, I think the government shouldn't allow for industries; their sole job is to harm others.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe

From the links:

1- First, secularism makes lawful what Allah has made unlawful.
The Rule of Allah (Shari`ah) is compulsory and has basic laws and regulations that cannot be changed. Some of these laws are concerned with the acts of worship, the relations between men and women, etc.
What is the position with regard to these laws?
Secularism makes adultery lawful if the male and the female are consenting adults. As for Riba (interest on money), it is the basis of all financial transactions in secular economies. On the contrary, Allah says (s.2 A. 278): "O you who believe, fear Allah and leave what comes from Riba if you are believers. If you do not do so, then wait for a war from Allah and His Messenger." As for alcohol, all secular systems allow the consumption of alcohol and make selling it a lawful business.

Highlighted parts that seem despotic to me.

But in a secular government Muslims are free to act out whatever roles they believe should be given to men and women, abstain from adultery, and to abstain from purchasing or imbibing alcohol.

In what way does this "force a Muslim to do anything against his/her views" which was the original question? I see no evidence of any Muslims being forced to do anything against their views in a secular country besides being able to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throat. Can you please make it more clear at which point Muslims are forced to do anything against their beliefs, unless indeed you're saying the thing they're forced to do is stop themselves from forcing their beliefs on everyone else?

2- Second, secularism is clear unbelief (Kufr).
Secularism is based on separating religion from all the affairs of this life and hence, it rules by law and regulations other than Allah's laws. Hence, secularism rejects Allah's rules with no exception and prefers regulations other than Allah's and His Messenger's. In fact, many secularists claim that Allah's laws might have been suitable for the time they were revealed but are now outdated.
As a result, most of the laws governing the daily affairs of life in the countries ruled by secular systems contradict Islam. Allah says (S.5 A.50): "Do they seek a judgment of Ignorance? But, who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah?"

But do you really argue that non-Muslims should live by Muslim law? Do you really think for even a second that Muslim's ideals are better than everyone else's? That goes beyond thinking that Islam is true and other beliefs are false; that steps into an entirely different territory.

Is it really fair for Muslims to tell everyone else what to do? Is it really? Do you consider it unfair if an atheist would tell a Muslim what to do, or a Jew were to tell a Muslim what to do, or a Hindu to tell a Muslim what to do, etc.?

In a secular government nobody can tell a Muslim what to do. Nor can a Muslim tell anyone else what to do. How is that unfair? Because it prohibits Muslims from forcing their beliefs on others?

2- The true character of a Muslim as required by Islam obliges him to be a man of politics. Every Muslim is required to fulfill the Islamic obligation of commanding good and forbidding evil. Also, it is the responsibility of every Muslim to offer advice to all his Muslim brothers and the leaders of the Muslim nation. We, Muslims are also commanded in surat Al-`Asr to enjoin good and stick to patience.

So non-Muslims have to abide by what Muslims think is evil?

Or else what? If a Muslim told me not to drink a bottle of whiskey with my friends I'd tell them to eff off, just like I'd tell anyone who thinks it's their business to get into my business to eff off.

If it came down to a government telling me that I can't do something that harms nobody with my friends, then I'd lay down my life to bring that government down. I'd literally die to fight that kind of senseless tyranny because freedom is worth more to me than life. Nobody has the right to take away freedoms because of their personal taboos, especially when those taboos aren't hurting anyone when I'm doing them. I understand the "alcohol = drunk drivers" argument but it's flawed. I'm not a drunk driver; just like "religion = suicide bombers" argument is flawed because not all religion believers are suicide bombers.

Allah says: “By the declining day. Lo! man is in a state of loss. Save those who believe and do good works, and exhort one another to truth and exhort one another to endurance” (Al-`Asr: 1-3) The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) urges every Muslim to fight mischief and combat injustice and never accept oppression.

How am I different from a Muslim, then, by combating the injustice or the oppression that a theocracy as described would lay upon me?

Upon being asked about the best form of Jihad, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The best form of Jihad is upholding the truth before a despotic ruler.” It is also reported that the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “The master of martyrs is Hamzah and comes after him a man who gets killed just because he stands to a despotic ruler commanding him to do good and give up evil.”

But the rule that's being suggested IS despotic. Banning things because of a few individuals when the majority of the people don't do those things IS despotic. Just like banning religion because a few bomb buildings (when a majority don't) would be despotic. It's nonsense -- utter, asinine, tyrannical nonsense.

It is an utter mistake and idle thinking to believe that the domain of prohibition in Islam is confined to committing adultery, drinking wine or the like only; rather, it’s of wider dimension. It extends to all acts that involve humiliating peoples, rigging the votes, oppressing the individuals and casting them in the dungeons of prisons without committing any crime; all these are apparent forms of evil. Appointing incompetent people and dismissing, without justifiable cause, the qualified ones is surely a sinful act, and, thus, a form of evil.

What is "adultery?" I agree that having sex outside of a committed marriage is wrong because that's breaking a promise to someone, but there is nothing wrong with sex outside of marriage. There is nothing wrong with homosexual sex. There is nothing wrong with drinking wine. ALL of these things would be prohibited needlessly, despotically. Evilly.

I agree with preventing humiliating people, rigging votes, oppressing (IRONIC that a man arguing for oppressing people who drink alcohol responsibly would mention oppression) people, and casting people in dungeons without committing crimes. (In fact, under a system some people have described where I'd be imprisoned for drinking alcohol or for loving my girlfriend Alicia that would INDEED be a situation where I'm "imprisoned without committing a crime.")

It's really backwards to me that the person in this quote claims to be against self-righteous indignation, hypocrisy, despotism and evildoing but ostensibly supports a system that would cause exactly that -- oppressing people who don't abuse alcohol but enjoy it occasionally, probably outlawing legitimate homosexual love between individuals who love each other enough to die for one another, outlawing the casual enjoyment of a cigarette between friends on a cold winter night on the front porch... I can't find it anything other than strange and backwards. I mean, maybe we're coming from different worlds, but I try to put myself in others' shoes a lot to try to glean understanding from them, but in this instance I see nothing but evil and oppression in these men's ideas.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Again, you yourself live in a country where many drugs are illegal, it seems some people there think they have the right to stop you from trading in and consuming many drugs... so apparently in secular democracies you don't do anything you want...
If you think illegality of these drugs is tyrannical, you are free...I think the society is much better without them. But why should your view be supreme to mine?

Right, even in western societies there are injustices. I don't disagree.

I live in America: I like this country but it's not perfect. Surely you know that just a while back we bought and sold slaves en masse, surely you know that women here had to FIGHT for their right to vote and hold property -- and even right now homosexuals are having to fight for their rights to marry like their heterosexual peers can.

The thing with America is that it's never been perfect but it does move towards perfection.

Years ago white people couldn't marry black people for instance, but now everyone wonders "what was the big deal?" The world didn't end, it got better.

Years ago women couldn't vote, but now everyone wonders "what was the big deal?" The world didn't end, it got better.

Right now homosexuals can't marry, but in 10-20 years everyone will wonder "what was the big deal?" The world won't end, it will get better.

Likewise, things like marijuana are illegal right now -- but they shouldn't be. In the 1920's in America alcohol was made illegal (I don't know if you're familiar with American history, it was called The Prohibition). Guess what: it didn't work. It actually made things worse because people rebelled against it, it bred crime (famous American gangsters like Al Capone rose to power because of prohibition), and when Prohibition ended things actually got better.

Yes, some people abuse substances. That's true for anything. A point I continually bring up -- because it's a good one -- is that some people abuse religion; should we therefore ban religion? The answer is obviously NO. Yes, some people abuse alcohol. Yes, some people abuse marijuana. Yes, some people abuse cigarettes and smoke a pack a day.

Should we ban these things for everyone, then? NO! Some people drink responsibly, I'm one of them. I never drive if I've even had a glass of alcohol, even if it's weak alcohol. I smoke responsibly, I never smoke in places where non-smokers would be subjected to my smoke. I enjoy having a drink with my friends and smoking on the porch with my friends. What's wrong with that? Why should anyone tell us that we can't?

Likewise, I personally don't smoke marijuana but I know friends that do. They do it responsibly, they usually just play cards or watch movies/TV or play music together when they do. They don't drive, they don't do dangerous or stupid things. What's the problem with that? Where does anyone derive the authority to punish EVERYONE for something that a few idiots do?

Also, most importantly, how can you punish all who enjoy alcohol for the actions of a few idiots who do it in excess but then not punish all who enjoy religion for the actions of a few idiots that take it in excess? That's hypocritical!
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Yes, I see but I disagree (the issue of smoking stems from my understanding, I could be wrong).
Again, I think the government shouldn't allow for industries; their sole job is to harm others.

So, should we ban companies that build skis, hang-gliders, roller skates and so on?

Not all smokers contract cancer; it's a gamble. It's LINKED to cancer but doesn't cause cancer 100% of the time.

Likewise, snowboarding or hang gliding is linked to broken bones (even death!) but doesn't cause it 100% of the time.

Smoking causes pleasure, hang-gliding causes pleasure. Both come with risks -- risks which adults are equipped to assess for themselves. Why does anyone have authority to make that decision FOR anyone else?

This isn't even a hypothetical analogy, this is actually a direct comparison. Would your perfect government also ban ski making companies and hang-glider making companies? If not, you're being inconsistent.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
so apparently in secular democracies you don't do anything you want...

Also, secular government isn't about "doing ANYTHING you want." It's about being free to make your own decisions as long as you aren't treading on the rights of anyone else.

There is a huge, huge, huge, huge, huge difference between me privately deciding to drink a few glasses of whiskey with my friends and play some video games... and someone deciding to use the force of law to force other people to do something, or to abstain from doing something.

In a secular country you can observe 100% of your religion and be 100% true to Allah. You just can't force someone who doesn't want to do that to do it. So unless you believe that it's somehow inhibiting your rights to be unable to force other people into your beliefs, what's the problem?
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Oh what a long post, it needs clear head and time to reply to. :D

lol I understand, there's no rush or urgency. I didn't mean to make it so elaborate but I think these are important points we're talking about.

Don't feel like you have to respond in any time frame at all, next month is fine as far as I care, we're just friends chatting :p
 

Wotan

Active Member
"But do you really argue that non-Muslims should live by Muslim law? Do you really think for even a second that Muslim's ideals are better than everyone else's? That goes beyond thinking that Islam is true and other beliefs are false; that steps into an entirely different territory.

Is it really fair for Muslims to tell everyone else what to do? Is it really? Do you consider it unfair if an atheist would tell a Muslim what to do, or a Jew were to tell a Muslim what to do, or a Hindu to tell a Muslim what to do, etc.?"

Ah, the light dawns.:)

Yes indeed, that IS EXACTLY what they believe. :shout Just like their Christians cousins. And the justification is that what they believe is THE Truth, The ONLY Truth and the complete TRUTH w/o error or possibility of error.:cover:

Think about that for a minute. If you really believe that what you KNOW is the final absolute and perfect TRUTH, that what you believe is w/o error or even possibility of error then ANY act done is compliance with that belief is good, just, noble, holy, correct, etc., etc., etc.

Remember Torquemada's famous defense? That even IF some of his victims WERE innocent the only thing he did was put them before god to be judged. If they were innocent they got to heaven a little early.

And yes Badram, if not curtailed by law these absolute supernatural religions ALWAYS end in Torquemada's bloody tyranny.:sad4:
 
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Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes indeed, that IS EXACTLY what they believe.

Just because an article posted in a thread says something, means that this what we all believe? Thats not true. May be to some this is the case, but not for all of us. Also, its not been clarified yet what is meant as not4me hasn't responded yet to the questions, and she said earlier that this doesn't apply to non-muslims.

Just like their Christians cousins. And the justification is that what they believe is THE Truth, The ONLY Truth and the complete TRUTH w/o error or possibility of error.:cover:

I believe this is the truth and without error etc... However, my perception of it is not. Meaning that surely i can & might misunderstand some parts of it, and by realizing that, and realizing also that my beliefs should only have to do with me, i won't and don't want to enforce my beliefs upon anybody else, in anyway. Not to mention that i have no evidence for what i believe, so i don't see my position any more superior than anybody else's in order to take such stance.

Remember Torquemada's famous defense? That even IF some of his victims WERE innocent the only thing he did was put them before god to be judged. If they were innocent they got to heaven a little early.

I can only hope you don't really think that this is how i look at things.

And yes Badram, if not curtailed by law these absolute supernatural religions ALWAYS end in Torquemada's bloody tyranny.:sad4:

It only takes a certain number of people to do something, it doesn't have to mean that anybody who believes in this would do this or contribute in it.

Also, tyranny and whatever has been done by all sorts of people. Believers in one god, in many gods, in no gods and whatever sorts of religions and beliefs.
 

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Also, secular government isn't about "doing ANYTHING you want." It's about being free to make your own decisions as long as you aren't treading on the rights of anyone else.
Hmm... I might quibble here. I'd say that it is liberal ideology that is about freedom to act within the constraints of others rights. Secularism being about the government being religiously neutral.

Of course, most, if not all, secular governments also subscribe to liberalism.
 

Meow Mix

Chatte Féministe
Hmm... I might quibble here. I'd say that it is liberal ideology that is about freedom to act within the constraints of others rights. Secularism being about the government being religiously neutral.

Of course, most, if not all, secular governments also subscribe to liberalism.

Granted, you're completely right. China is technically secular.

I think we're all aware of what we're talking about when we say "secular government" followed by statements about civil liberties though.
 

Wotan

Active Member
And yes Badram, if not curtailed by law these absolute supernatural religions ALWAYS end in Torquemada's bloody tyranny.:sad4:

It only takes a certain number of people to do something, it doesn't have to mean that anybody who believes in this would do this or contribute in it.

No, it doesn't Nor did I say did.

Also, tyranny and whatever has been done by all sorts of people. Believers in one god, in many gods, in no gods and whatever sorts of religions and beliefs.

Quite true. And your point is . . . .?

In our country are evangelists and zealots of many different political, economic and religious persuasions whose fanatical conviction is that all thought is divinely classified into two kinds-that which is their own and that which is false and dangerous. JUSTICE ROBERT H. JACKSON

Sad but true.
 

Wotan

Active Member
Okay.

Just saying that this certain type of belief is not necessarily tied to this type of actions, or way of thinking.
It a necessary but not sufficient condition. The simple and obvious truism: If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.
 

Bismillah

Submit
If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.
And? Are you forgetting the purges in the Soviet Union, in China, in Cambodia? How many more were killed out of worldly matters. Don't try to take the moral high ground, at least as many people have been killed due to worldly desires as they have by zealotry.
 

Starsoul

Truth
Also, most importantly, how can you punish all who enjoy alcohol for the actions of a few idiots who do it in excess but then not punish all who enjoy religion for the actions of a few idiots that take it in excess? That's hypocritical!
Where do you draw the line where an alcoholic wont break the skull of a muslim with his bottle when he's drunk? How do you apply a secular approach to this scenario? I have seen countless muslims been beaten to near death, injured barbarically by some unknown gang of drunk people who happen to just get drunk intentionally and found a vulnerable victim passing by who happened to be a different race ( and drunk not for the first time which means they always know how vulnerable they would be to their sinister side once they're drunk, how do you justify that?)

And for that very reason, Islam or any religion cannot co-exist ' in its true spirit' in a secular society. It would have some freedom but not all of it. People will always get drunk no matter what, as long as there is alcohol. To question suffering caused by the will of God, how can one ignore the suffering caused intentionally by man? Why haven't diseases vanished from this earth with pharmaceutical cures and actually increased in virulence and extreme injuriousness ? Drug companies don't even want some degree of cure to happen, if there's no disease , there's no money in medicine. If there's no alcohol , no tobbacco, no cancers , no other substance abuse, there's no innumerable amount of complicated irreversible diseases which feed the bank accounts of phramaceutical industries. This vicious cycle is what doctors talk about EVERYDAY, no matter from which place or ethnicity. I have met countless English men, Americans, Ausies and Irish doctors who wish they could focus on actual patients IF the regular constant flow of drunk driving accidents, alcohol abusers, substance abusers could be lessened to a considerable extent. but nay, Its fun out weighs the losses caused to humanity :p
 
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Wotan

Active Member
And? Are you forgetting the purges in the Soviet Union, in China, in Cambodia? How many more were killed out of worldly matters. Don't try to take the moral high ground, at least as many people have been killed due to worldly desires as they have by zealotry.
[/color]

Dress it up any way you like. Use the 'So's your old man' defense. Pretend you are the holy martyr.

Doesn't matter.

If you do not believe in a god you will not be willing to kill in its name.
 
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