A Collection of Questions

[ThirtyThree]

I have here a collection of questions for only those who believe in the below five concepts should answer.

1) Believers in conscious eternal punishment.

2) Believers in "Hell", (Luk 16:24) (Mat 5:29) "Hell" in this passage refers to (γέεννα) (Gehenna) and not "Hell" as in Sheol or Hades (the grave or place of the dead).

3) Believers in Lucifer as an angel created by God.

4) An eternal Lake of Fire which is also conscious eternal punishment.

5) That God is Omniscient (all seeing/knowing) and Omnipotent (all powerful).

~~~

1) If God is omniscient, why did he create Lucifer?

IE: God surely knew Lucifer's pride would cause Lucifer's fall and knew all associated with that fall.

2) Did Lucifer have choice like man has choice?

3) If God is omnipotent, can God annihilate a soul?

a) If God can not annihilate a soul, how is God omnipotent?

b) If God can annihilate a soul, why does God not annihilate Lucifer?

4) Why would God punish Satan eternally rather than annihilate Satan?

5) Is "Gehenna" thrown into The Lake of Fire with Sheol/Hades (resting place of the dead) and death (physical death)?

a) If "Gehenna" is thrown into The Lake of Fire, what happens to those who are in "Gehenna"?

b) Supposing "a" is true, why would God throw the souls of man into The Lake of Fire, a second eternal torment (and a final separation from God), when man has already been suffering in "Gehenna"?

6) Scripture states that Satan is to be thrown into The Lake of Fire (Mat 25:32-41). It also references that "the goats", a reference to those "on the left hand", also shall be thrown there. Likewise, The Beast, The False Prophet, all those not written in the Book of Life (Rev 20:15) and all those who took the Mark of the Beast, (Rev 20:10). The Lake of Fire is also known as The Second Death (Rev 20:14).

a) Why does Satan and those mentioned deserve this eternal punishment?

b) Does an Atheist go to The Lake of Fire for being an Atheist or do they go to "Gehenna"?

7) What does scripture mean when it states that the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast (ALIVE) into The Lake of Fire?

a) If the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet are literal persons, does "ALIVE" mean CONSCIOUSLY or PHYSICALLY ALIVE?

b) If the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet are not literal persons, what does "ALIVE" mean?

8) If Satan is already defeated at the cross, why is there a second war in Heaven prophesied in (Rev 12:7-9)?

9) Is the unforgivable sin something which can be committed in current time or is it something which could only be committed during the time of Yeshua? (Mar 3:29)

a) Is the unforgivable sin blasphemy against The Holy Spirit? Is it something else?

b) Is (Rev 22:19) also an unforgivable sin?

10) What does Eternal Life, The Book of Life and (Jhn 14:6) mean in scripture? To be specific, what is "Life" in the context of: (Strongs G2222): (of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature.)? Keep in mind, this is from the perspective of UNCONDITIONAL immortality.

a) Is Eternal Life total unity with God?

b) Eternal Death, The Second Death and "death" in general within scripture refers to separation. Is The Second Death eternal separation from God, just as "death" is separation from the body?

11) In regard to (Exo 20:5) and in context of the "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.". What is meant by this?

 

[Deidre]

Unless the rules have changed, this probably should be moved to another section, as this section isn't for debating Christianity. You can be of a different faith belief, but it's not for debating Christians about their faith.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Unless the rules have changed, this probably should be moved to another section, as this section isn't for debating Christianity. You can be of a different faith belief, but it's not for debating Christians about their faith.

I wish no debate. Instead, I simply desire honest answers from those who are well versed in scripture.

 

[Deathbydefault]

"General Discussions" is the only other place I think this thread can go.
It seems fine here, it fits the prerequisites (other than the one nobody likes to follow anyways...).

 

[David1967]

Wow, I think each one of these questions could be a thread by itself.

 

[Jiddanand]

Wow, I think each one of these questions could be a thread by itself.

You are right. Each of the individual question should be Discussed separately.
It's hard to respond them all with a single answer. [emoji4]

 

[Quintessence]

*** THREAD MOVED TO SCRIPTURAL DEBATES ***​

 

[moorea944]

I have here a collection of questions for only those who believe in the below five concepts should answer.

1) Believers in conscious eternal punishment.

2) Believers in "Hell", (Luk 16:24) (Mat 5:29) "Hell" in this passage refers to (γέεννα) (Gehenna) and not "Hell" as in Sheol or Hades (the grave or place of the dead).

3) Believers in Lucifer as an angel created by God.

4) An eternal Lake of Fire which is also conscious eternal punishment.

5) That God is Omniscient (all seeing/knowing) and Omnipotent (all powerful).

~~~

1) If God is omniscient, why did he create Lucifer?

IE: God surely knew Lucifer's pride would cause Lucifer's fall and knew all associated with that fall.

2) Did Lucifer have choice like man has choice?

3) If God is omnipotent, can God annihilate a soul?

a) If God can not annihilate a soul, how is God omnipotent?

b) If God can annihilate a soul, why does God not annihilate Lucifer?

4) Why would God punish Satan eternally rather than annihilate Satan?

5) Is "Gehenna" thrown into The Lake of Fire with Sheol/Hades (resting place of the dead) and death (physical death)?

a) If "Gehenna" is thrown into The Lake of Fire, what happens to those who are in "Gehenna"?

b) Supposing "a" is true, why would God throw the souls of man into The Lake of Fire, a second eternal torment (and a final separation from God), when man has already been suffering in "Gehenna"?

6) Scripture states that Satan is to be thrown into The Lake of Fire (Mat 25:32-41). It also references that "the goats", a reference to those "on the left hand", also shall be thrown there. Likewise, The Beast, The False Prophet, all those not written in the Book of Life (Rev 20:15) and all those who took the Mark of the Beast, (Rev 20:10). The Lake of Fire is also known as The Second Death (Rev 20:14).

a) Why does Satan and those mentioned deserve this eternal punishment?

b) Does an Atheist go to The Lake of Fire for being an Atheist or do they go to "Gehenna"?

7) What does scripture mean when it states that the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast (ALIVE) into The Lake of Fire?

a) If the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet are literal persons, does "ALIVE" mean CONSCIOUSLY or PHYSICALLY ALIVE?

b) If the Beast (Antichrist) and the False Prophet are not literal persons, what does "ALIVE" mean?

8) If Satan is already defeated at the cross, why is there a second war in Heaven prophesied in (Rev 12:7-9)?

9) Is the unforgivable sin something which can be committed in current time or is it something which could only be committed during the time of Yeshua? (Mar 3:29)

a) Is the unforgivable sin blasphemy against The Holy Spirit? Is it something else?

b) Is (Rev 22:19) also an unforgivable sin?

10) What does Eternal Life, The Book of Life and (Jhn 14:6) mean in scripture? To be specific, what is "Life" in the context of: (Strongs G2222): (of the absolute fulness of life, both essential and ethical, which belongs to God, and through him both to the hypostatic "logos" and to Christ in whom the "logos" put on human nature.)? Keep in mind, this is from the perspective of UNCONDITIONAL immortality.

a) Is Eternal Life total unity with God?

b) Eternal Death, The Second Death and "death" in general within scripture refers to separation. Is The Second Death eternal separation from God, just as "death" is separation from the body?

11) In regard to (Exo 20:5) and in context of the "visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me.". What is meant by this?

3) Believers in Lucifer as an angel created by God.

I'll start with question #3
Isaiah 14v12+
Unfortunately, man has taken scripture out of context because he just doesnt study scripture and just believes in stories.
Lucifer is a latin word that was put into scripture. It is the latin word for the planet Venus. Plus it can be rendered, morning star or bright light. KJV and NKJV are the only bibles that have it.

Isaiah 14 is about a "man" called King Nebuchadnezzar. How he puts himselve up like the stars and how he is going to fall down back to earth "like" the stars in heaven. It's a future prophecy about him.
Verse 16 "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" He was a king that ruled the world in those days. The book of Daniel also talks about him. Isaiah is referring the king to the planet Venus.

Read the whole chapter. And you should read Daniel too. Great reading!!

 

[ThirtyThree]

I'll start with question #3
Isaiah 14v12+
Unfortunately, man has taken scripture out of context because he just doesnt study scripture and just believes in stories.
Lucifer is a latin word that was put into scripture. It is the latin word for the planet Venus. Plus it can be rendered, morning star or bright light. KJV and NKJV are the only bibles that have it.

Isaiah 14 is about a "man" called King Nebuchadnezzar. How he puts himselve up like the stars and how he is going to fall down back to earth "like" the stars in heaven. It's a future prophecy about him.
Verse 16 "Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;" He was a king that ruled the world in those days. The book of Daniel also talks about him. Isaiah is referring the king to the planet Venus.

Read the whole chapter. And you should read Daniel too. Great reading!!

Okay, there was absolutely no need to post that. Was the audience for these questions not made clear?

 

[Mr. Beebe]

I wish no debate. Instead, I simply desire honest answers from those who are well versed in scripture.

Those who are well versed in scripture will not arrive to the conclusion that the wicked will be kept alive and tortured in an eternal fire forever and ever.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Those who are well versed in scripture will not arrive to the conclusion that the wicked will be kept alive and tortured in an eternal fire forever and ever.

Is that what you think? I have met Bible scholars who have come to that exact conclusion.

However, since some believe in that, here...


Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

( the wicked will rise with bodies immortal, but not free from sin, nor glorious: yea, their resurrection will differ in the end of it; the one will rise to everlasting life and glory, the other to everlasting shame and damnation.)


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


So, since you Beebe believe in Annihilationism, you should be able to answer a simple question. Why would YHWH raise the wicked into incorruptible bodies? Was it just so they could stand at the Judgment? Was it just so they could be cast into annihilation?

 

[Mr. Beebe]

So, since you Beebe believe in Annihilationism, you should be able to answer a simple question. Why would YHWH raise the wicked into incorruptible bodies? Was it just so they could stand at the Judgment? Was it just so they could be cast into annihilation?

Again, you are not properly dividing the word of truth. First,, you need to understand that it was the plan of the Devil, that Adam & Eve would sin,, and then go and eat from the tree of life. If you read Genesis 3:22 you will see that God was aware of the plan, and placed Cherubim to guard the way to the tree of Life (Genesis 3:24). Plus, if you then go to 1 Timothy 6:16 you will see that only God has immortality, not the wicked.

The Bible tells us that the Righteous will be raised and given immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52). Nowhere does the Bible say the wicked are raised with incorruptable bodies. On the Contrary,,,Ezekiel 28:18 says Satan will be reduced to ashes, on the face of the earth. Then, if you want to, go and read the Book of Malachi 4:1-3. God says the wicked shall be "stubble". And the day that is coming shall "burn them up" Malachi 4:1.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), not life everlasting in some flames!

The Bible says that it is appointed for men to die once,,after that judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

The Bible calls the destruction of the wicked God's "strange act" (Isaiah 28:21). Strange for a loving God to destroy the Creation He loves so much. God's Bible tells us that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41. So,,the lake of fire was never intended for men. We can all escape thru the Merits of Jesus.

If you read Revelation 20: 9 you will see that the wicked are destroyed right here on the earth. Fire will rain down on the wicked,,so much fire, that the surface of the entire earth will be ablaze. The earth will be a "lake of fire". When the fires burns all there is to burn,,it will go out. Then God shall make a new Heaven and New Earth, for the former things shall pass away.

Hope I have answered your questions.

 

[moorea944]

Okay, there was absolutely no need to post that. Was the audience for these questions not made clear?

Actually, there was....

 

[Demonslayer]

If God can annihilate a soul, why does God not annihilate Lucifer?

He needs a gambling buddy. See: Job.

 

[ThirtyThree]

Again, you are not properly dividing the word of truth. First,, you need to understand that it was the plan of the Devil, that Adam & Eve would sin,, and then go and eat from the tree of life. If you read Genesis 3:22 you will see that God was aware of the plan, and placed Cherubim to guard the way to the tree of Life (Genesis 3:24). Plus, if you then go to 1 Timothy 6:16 you will see that only God has immortality, not the wicked.

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

You take this scripture out of context. While it is speaking of god (or Jesus if you believe that type of thing), it is doing so in the context of:

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is a similar context. It is as simple as, none are given eternal life, or life everlasting, other than through god (or Jesus if you prefer).

Now, there is a lot of confusion regarding just what life everlasting or eternal life is, or for that matter life in general, just as there is as much confusion regarding death or the second death.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Just what does Second Death mean?

δεύτερος θάνατος (Second Death)

Second: Strongs: g1208: the second, the other of two
Death: Strongs: g2288: 1. the death of the body 2. that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended.

 

[ThirtyThree]

The body has already died. It can not die a second time. Instead, this speaks of the soul. However, what separation is possible for the soul?

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill thesoul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul andbody in hell.

In Mat 10:28, the "Hell" is the reference of Gehenna. This was the Valley of Hinnom, a place where dead bodies and such things were burned.

Destroy: Perish, destroy, or lose, (Strong's 622)

Generally, "apollumi" basically means to "damn".

Now, what then of life or everlasting life? First, rather than go into the same process I did for death, I see no need because it is clear what life means throughout scripture if in the context of everlasting life IN Christ. It means just that, eternal unity, clothed in Christ.

So, without all the need for quoting Strongs numbers and ancient Greek as before, the obvious flip side of eternal life clothed in Christ is, eternal separation clothed in wickedness, or the state of being fallen.

The Bible tells us that the Righteous will be raised and given immortal bodies (1 Corinthians 15:52). Nowhere does the Bible say the wicked are raised with incorruptable bodies. On the Contrary,,,Ezekiel 28:18 says Satan will be reduced to ashes, on the face of the earth. Then, if you want to, go and read the Book of Malachi 4:1-3. God says the wicked shall be "stubble". And the day that is coming shall "burn them up" Malachi 4:1.

You are cherry picking now. All of these scriptures have context, which seems lost on you.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.


What do you think this says? Does it say: "that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just... and unjust.

No, it says BOTH the just and the unjust will be resurrected, and what is the context?

Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:


Paul was explaining that he believed in the things written (in the Bible) and in the prophecies and in the law, and that he had hope of the resurrection of the death, both just and unjust, which is something written.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.


Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


In Dan 12:1, it is important to note that the context of "thy people shall be delivered" is exactly that, a reference to those written in the book, and not a reference to the wicked.

In Dan 12:2, it clearly states "some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt." Does this sound like they are annihilated?


Jhn 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.


Jhn 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,


Jhn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



Same problem, right? All are resurrected, even the wicked. "The resurrection of damnation".


1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortalmust put on immortality.


1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


Keeping in context, this refers solely to the righteous, not the wicked. Obviously the wicked are not going to be in Heaven.

The Bible says the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), not life everlasting in some flames!

Separation from god, just as Adam and Eve were SEPARATED from Eden, and just as those cast into The Lake of Fire (The Second Death), are made SEPARATE from god.

The Bible says that it is appointed for men to die once,,after that judgment. (Hebrews 9:27)

That does not disprove the traditionalist view of damnation. The "man" only dies once, then is judged. The soul of the man, is another matter.

The Bible calls the destruction of the wicked God's "strange act" (Isaiah 28:21). Strange for a loving God to destroy the Creation He loves so much. God's Bible tells us that the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41. So,,the lake of fire was never intended for men. We can all escape thru the Merits of Jesus.

You are correct about the purpose of The Lake of Fire. However, that still does not dispel the traditionalist view of damnation.

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

The worm is a symbol for the agony or anguish which does not die within the souls of the damned.

If you read Revelation 20: 9 you will see that the wicked are destroyed right here on the earth. Fire will rain down on the wicked,,so much fire, that the surface of the entire earth will be ablaze. The earth will be a "lake of fire". When the fires burns all there is to burn,,it will go out. Then God shall make a new Heaven and New Earth, for the former things shall pass away.

Hope I have answered your questions.

Everything will, the entire universe is destroyed and a new one is born, one not following current laws of physics even, and lacking certain gemstones (light properties), else with those stones, it could not have an internal light. However, that is neither here nor there. You are taking scripture out of context again. When the Earth is burned in fire, the fire goes out when the Earth is consumed. You are incorrectly applying this scripture to support annihilationism. First, "wickedness" itself will no longer exist IN THE NEW CREATION! Neither will a lot of things (again new physics and other things). So yes, the Earth will end in fire, and the universe will be rolled up like a scroll, and the very stars will appear to fall from the sky. This is how the ancient Israelite, believing in a flat Earth, saw the end of all days.

Now, care to take more scriptures out of context to support your lie?

Also, do remember, the same Greek word used to talk about eternal paradise for the righteous is used to describe eternal damnation for the wicked. If it is temporary, then the fate of the righteous is also temporary, by that fact. Likewise, there are Greek words to refer to everlasting or infinite, which refer to the nature of god, and also refer to the nature of... The Lake of Fire and eternal torment.

 

[Mr. Beebe]

Now, care to take more scriptures out of context to support your lie?

I haven't told you any lies. I have told you the truth. You just don't like the truth. Nor do you like the simplicity of the Bible. lol

 

[ThirtyThree]

I haven't told you any lies. I have told you the truth. You just don't like the truth. Nor do you like the simplicity of the Bible. lol

As a Luciferian, why would I want to believe in a traditionalist version of damnation? Annihilation is appealing, surely?

 

[Mr. Beebe]

As a Luciferian, why would I want to believe in a traditionalist version of damnation? Annihilation is appealing, surely?

You are self-deluded. Many are. You are not interested in the truth, you are interested in what appeals to your sinful nature. Proverbs 16:25 says "There is a way that seems right to a man, but it's end is the way of death." The Bible says souls die (Ezekiel 18:4). All souls belong to Him, even you,, that is why you will have to give an account. Many think that if they refuse to believe in the God of the Bible they will also be free of the duty that God has given each of us which is to fear Him and keep His Commandments. We owe God worship. He created us and that alone is reason to worship Him that made the Heavens and the earth and the seas and all that in them is.

 

[NathanShepard8888]

Those who are well versed in scripture will not arrive to the conclusion that the wicked will be kept alive and tortured in an eternal fire forever and ever.

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It's better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands