A Christian becomes a nonbeliever

[Trailblazer]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

I agree, suffering was intended by God as is all things.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

The only answer I can give is apologetic. So I have nothing to say if you still have faith in God other than as far as I can tell, the only faith possible in God is blind faith.
I have tried to find a reasoned faith in God and I can't. Make of it, what you want.

 

[Truthseeker]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

I thought you didn't like eharmony, and I thought you would not partake of internet dating service.

You are the right person, in my opinion, to talk to this man about his issue. I hope you can get through to him.

 

[Trailblazer]

I thought you didn't like eharmony, and I thought you would not partake of internet dating service.

When I initially joined the internet dating services I was in a very different state of mind than I am now. I thought I needed a husband, remember? Now I just remain a member because I paid for them and I am interested to see what might come of it. I joined eharmony last, at the end of November, thinking it might be better than the other ones, but this is the first man in five months I have liked or messaged. The other matches were not remote possibilities. They call it scientific matching but it is anything but!

You are the right person, in my opinion, to talk to this man about his issue. I hope you can get through to him.

Speaking of that, I just finished writing what I am going to send him, when the time is right. I don't want to overwhelm him, you know how I do that.

God does not intervene to prevent suffering because if God did that there would be no suffering, and suffering is built into God’s design for this material world. Suffering is one way that humans grow and develop spiritually in this world, because by enduring the suffering they improve their character and become stronger. After they have endured, they can help other people who are suffering by sharing their experiences and knowledge.

You might ask how the suffering of a cancer patient who is ultimately going to die benefits that person. People who suffer through no fault of their own, whether from diseases, accidents and injuries, or at the hands of evil people, will have a great recompense from God in the spiritual world.

Suffering is what humans have to endure while living in a material world, and some people suffer more than others. My belief is that those who suffer most have the most potential to become more perfect.

Suffering can be hard to endure, but it is not forever. This earthly life is a temporal existence and is very short in duration compared to the next life, which is eternal. The kind of suffering we are compelled to endure on earth is associated with our physical bodies, physical pain and having to provide for our physical needs. That kind of suffering will no longer exist after we die and our soul (which is our person) enters the spiritual world, because we will have a spiritual body so there will be no physical pain or physical needs. However, those souls who committed evil deeds in this life will suffer psychic pain in the next life, because they will realize what they have done. Also, souls who failed to achieve spiritual growth in this life will be handicapped in the next life, and there might be regret over the spiritual growth they failed to achieve.

Another thing is that God gave humans free will to use to alleviate suffering. When it comes to diseases that is what medical science is all about. That might sound harsh, since science has not reached the point where diseases such as cancer have been eradicated, but I believe that will happen eventually as science advances.

We must also remember that this world is full of things that have the potential to bring great joy, and the joys can help to offset the suffering.

 

[RestlessSoul]

In the world ye shall have tribulation: But be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

 

[Nakosis]

A man I met on eharmony told me that he was raised in a Christian church and he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

Here is how I responded to his message:

I was not raised as a Christian or in any religion or believing in God and I became a Baha’i during my first year of college. I can fully understand how you feel about God because I belong to a religious forum and many people feel that way. I have struggled to believe that God is loving, given all the suffering I have endured, long before my husband passed on of cancer. I have also struggled to believe that God is loving because of all the suffering in the world, but I never lost my belief in God. Through my religion and my own logical analysis, I have a belief about why God does not intervene to prevent suffering.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

He said he was going to respond to my message but I have not heard back yet. What I will say if this conversation continues is that a person does not have to believe that God is loving in order to believe that God exists. I believe it is beyond human comprehension to understand ‘how’ God is loving because God’s love is not like human love since God is not a human. I think that some people ‘project’ what they believe a loving God would do but that is illogical, since they cannot ever know what a loving God would do. They can only have a personal opinion regarding what a loving God would do based upon what they consider loving, and if their opinion is based upon what a loving human would do under the same circumstances that is the fallacy of false equivalence, since God is not a human.

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

If you want to offer the religious apologetic that God created a world that is a storehouse of suffering for human benefit, save it for someone who cares, as that is not what this thread is about.

If there is a God it seems more realistic to accept that I am totally ignorant about such an entity.
Does God have feelings like love?
Does God care about man?
Is God all-knowing?
So how could I assume to know why God created the world or allows suffering.
The problem is not God so much as man's unwillingness to accept his own ignorance.

You want to believe in a loving God, then just do that. Let go of the need to answer questions you can't.
There are a lot of questions I can't answer. Maybe someday I'll have the information to do so. Now I don't.

Most atheists I talk with have made peace with their ignorance. Why can't theists?

 

[Trailblazer]

If there is a God it seems more realistic to accept that I am totally ignorant about such an entity.
Does God have feelings like love?
Does God care about man?
Is God all-knowing?

For the most part I too am ignorant of the entity called God.
The 'reason' I believe that God is All-Knowing, All-Powerful, and All-Loving is because that is what the messengers have revealed about God.
For the same reason I believe that God cares about man, and God demonstrates His caring by sending messengers, who are the only link we have to God.

All I believe that we can know about God is what is revealed through God's messengers, and that knowledge is very limited.

The Baháʼí teachings state that God is too great for humans to create an accurate conception of. In the Baháʼí understanding, the attributes attributed to God, such as All-Powerful and All-Loving are derived from limited human experiences of power and love. Baháʼu'lláh taught that the knowledge of God is limited to those attributes and qualities which are perceptible to us, and thus direct knowledge of God is not possible. Furthermore, Baháʼu'lláh states that knowledge of the attributes of God is revealed to humanity through his messengers.[12]​

​

While the Baháʼí writings teach of a personal god who is a being with a personality (including the capacity to reason and to feel love), they clearly state that this does not imply a human or physical form.[2] Shoghi Effendi writes:​

​

What is meant by personal God is a God Who is conscious of His creation, Who has a Mind, a Will, a Purpose, and not, as many scientists and materialists believe, an unconscious and determined force operating in the universe. Such conception of the Divine Being, as the Supreme and ever present Reality in the world, is not anthropomorphic, for it transcends all human limitations and forms, and does by no means attempt to define the essence of Divinity which is obviously beyond any human comprehension. To say that God is a personal Reality does not mean that He has a physical form, or does in any way resemble a human being. To entertain such belief would be sheer blasphemy.[15][16]​

​

From: God in the Baháʼí Faith​

So how could I assume to know why God created the world or allows suffering.

I do not assume to know why God created the world, I believe God created the world, and since there is joy and suffering in the world, I believe those were built into the design of the world, and since God does not intervene to prevent suffering, I deduce that God allows suffering.

The problem is not God so much as man's unwillingness to accept his own ignorance.

You want to believe in a loving God, then just do that. Let go of the need to answer questions you can't.
There are a lot of questions I can't answer. Maybe someday I'll have the information to do so. Now I don't.

I have let go of the questions that I cannot answer, and there are many. Like I said in my OP, when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The religious apologetic, that suffering is beneficial for us, is not fully sufficient for me.

Most atheists I talk with have made peace with their ignorance. Why can't theists?

I have made peace with what I do not know and can never know. The difference between me and an atheist is that just because I cannot know much about God does not preclude my belief that God exists.

 

[Truthseeker]

Speaking of that, I just finished writing what I am going to send him, when the time is right. I don't want to overwhelm him, you know how I do that.

God does not intervene to prevent suffering because if God did that there would be no suffering, and suffering is built into God’s design for this material world. Suffering is one way that humans grow and develop spiritually in this world, because by enduring the suffering they improve their character and become stronger. After they have endured, they can help other people who are suffering by sharing their experiences and knowledge.

You might ask how the suffering of a cancer patient who is ultimately going to die benefits that person. People who suffer through no fault of their own, whether from diseases, accidents and injuries, or at the hands of evil people, will have a great recompense from God in the spiritual world.

Suffering is what humans have to endure while living in a material world, and some people suffer more than others. My belief is that those who suffer most have the most potential to become more perfect.

Suffering can be hard to endure, but it is not forever. This earthly life is a temporal existence and is very short in duration compared to the next life, which is eternal. The kind of suffering we are compelled to endure on earth is associated with our physical bodies, physical pain and having to provide for our physical needs. That kind of suffering will no longer exist after we die and our soul (which is our person) enters the spiritual world, because we will have a spiritual body so there will be no physical pain or physical needs. However, those souls who committed evil deeds in this life will suffer psychic pain in the next life, because they will realize what they have done. Also, souls who failed to achieve spiritual growth in this life will be handicapped in the next life, and there might be regret over the spiritual growth they failed to achieve.

Another thing is that God gave humans free will to use to alleviate suffering. When it comes to diseases that is what medical science is all about. That might sound harsh, since science has not reached the point where diseases such as cancer have been eradicated, but I believe that will happen eventually as science advances.

We must also remember that this world is full of things that have the potential to bring great joy, and the joys can help to offset the suffering.

This all sounds familiar. I have said much the same to you.

 

[F1fan]

These stories illustrate the disservice to humanity by religions when they promise and promote ideas that are not observed or verified by life experiences. Religions exploit many vulnerable people, and they can be hurt to varying degrees and in different ways. We don't teach children to think critically, we teach them to adopt social norms and believe, and it causes problems eventually to individuals and to society. Many non-believers quit believing due to the harms that religion caused them, and it is tragic they come to reject belief in ways that leaves scars instead of being taught at a young age to think through the concepts religions tell them are true.

 

[King Phenomenon]

God is comforting. Nothing more. People read into it WAY TOO MUCH.

 

[Trailblazer]

God is comforting. Nothing more. People read into it WAY TOO MUCH.

You want to be comforted by an imaginary god?
Just kidding because we both know that God is real.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

These stories illustrate the disservice to humanity by religions when they promise and promote ideas that are not observed or verified by life experiences. Religions exploit many vulnerable people, and they can be hurt to varying degrees and in different ways. We don't teach children to think critically, we teach them to adopt social norms and believe, and it causes problems eventually to individuals and to society. Many non-believers quit believing due to the harms that religion caused them, and it is tragic they come to reject belief in ways that leaves scars instead of being taught at a young age to think through the concepts religions tell them are true.

QFT, and I give your post a winner frubal as well.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

These stories illustrate the disservice to humanity by religions when they promise and promote ideas that are not observed or verified by life experiences. Religions exploit many vulnerable people, and they can be hurt to varying degrees and in different ways. We don't teach children to think critically, we teach them to adopt social norms and believe, and it causes problems eventually to individuals and to society. Many non-believers quit believing due to the harms that religion caused them, and it is tragic they come to reject belief in ways that leaves scars instead of being taught at a young age to think through the concepts religions tell them are true.

If there's one thing I've learned through my personal exodus from Christianity and the thirty years I spent as a Christian, it's that I was much better off after I learned to stand on my own, take care of myself, and not be co-dependent on God. I can honestly say that I felt a tremendous sense of relief when I realized that I didn't need God in my life to feel peace, happiness, and contentment in my life. It was also a relief to find that I could take care of myself and my family and make good decisions for myself and my family without depending on God to dictate my life. I don't need God in my life to be moral and make wise decisions. It took some time for me to detox myself from the brainwashing I had endured while still a Christian. It also took some time for me to realize that I'm not a "sinful" human being in desperate need of salvation and forgiveness from a bloodthirsty, sadistic, jealous, furious, vindictive, and genocidal God who is about as kind and caring to humans as an angry king cobra. In fact, I don't need anything from God, and I will take it a step further and say that I don't want God in my life. And no, it's not a matter of me "wanting to sin," as I've been accused of in other threads, or a matter of pride either. As far as I'm concerned, my belief, faith, hope, and trust in God were in vain, and being a Christian was an absolutely miserable experience for me. I managed to turn my life around and begin to heal emotionally only after I renounced my belief in God. I finally realized that my belief and faith in God were an emotional crutch, but I chose to give them up and make my life better. I'm emotionally strong enough to stand on my own, and I don't need or want God in my life. I'm capable of making my own decisions and choosing my own path without depending on God to dictate those decisions for me.

In my opinion, my experience of emotionally healing and making my life better on my own without believing in God, having faith in God, or depending on God validates Penn Jillette's point that a person doesn't need God in their life to be a moral person. I honestly think that he hit the nail on the head when he said, "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want?" And my answer is: I rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them, they would go on killing and raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine." I truly believe that he is spot on.

 

[Jainarayan]

he fervently believed in God, but as he aged and grew in life experience, he did not see the Hand of God at work in our world, although he still believed in God. Then when his wife got sick with cancer and he turned in earnest to God, praying for her suffering to be relieved for 3 ½ years while he was her caregiver, he never felt the grace of God, and then as a result he lost his belief in God. He said he felt like no deity capable of making a difference in a person’s life would let his wife suffer so much.

This is the corner Christians paint themselves into by ascribing everything to God. They have turned God into a micromanaging megalomaniac who is demonized (no pun intended) and vilified for every child who gets cancer, and for every prayer that goes unanswered. Even if they are reluctant to believe in laws of karma, actually they downright dismiss it, which is OK, they don't consider that God may have set universal laws in motion. Perhaps he has decided, even being omniscient and omnipotent, not to break them for reasons only he knows. He owes no one an explanation. While God to them is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, maybe just maybe he isn't. No one except his followers said he is. They've set God on too high a pedestal, setting themselves up for disappointment and getting angry with, and losing faith in God when he doesn't come through. Yet people are eager to say "thy will be done". And even if he is omnipotent, why should he save that child and not that child? Or this woman and not that young man? Maybe things have to play out. Maybe there are certain lines in the sand.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is the corner Christians paint themselves into by ascribing everything to God. They have turned God into a micromanaging megalomaniac who is demonized (no pun intended) and vilified for every child who gets cancer, and for every prayer that goes unanswered. Even if they are reluctant to believe in laws of karma, actually they downright dismiss it, which is OK, they don't consider that God may have set universal laws in motion. Perhaps he has decided, even being omniscient and omnipotent, not to break them for reasons only he knows. He owes no one an explanation. While God to them is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, maybe just maybe he isn't. No one except his followers said he is. They've set God on too high a pedestal, setting themselves up for disappointment and getting angry with, and losing faith in God when he doesn't come through. Yet people are eager to say "thy will be done". And even if he is omnipotent, why should he save that child and not that child? Or this woman and not that young man? Maybe things have to play out. Maybe there are certain lines in the sand.

Not all Christians think this way. Sure there are many ex-Christians who lost their faith in God because God did not come through and answer their prayers, but most Christians understand that God cannot answer every prayer nor is God obligated to. Even though hypothetically God could answer every prayer because God is omnipotent, if God did that it would upset the entire order in the world because it would interfere with the natural course of diseases and it would interfere with human free will. I agree with you that things have to play out and there are certain lines in the sand we humans cannot cross. We either choose to accept that God's will be done and retain our faith in God or we can reject it because we want our will to be done.

I believe that God answers some prayers, at His own discretion, when it is for the benefit of the person, but other prayers are not answered because God's intervention would cause more harm than good. I plan to write a post about that on this thread, since I plan to explain this to that man on eharmony.

 

[Jainarayan]

Not all Christians think this way. Sure there are many ex-Christians who lost their faith in God because God did not come through and answer their prayers, but most Christians understand that God cannot answer every prayer nor is God obligated to. Even though hypothetically God could answer every prayer because God is omnipotent, if God did that it would upset the entire order in the world because it would interfere with the natural course of diseases and it would interfere with human free will. I agree with you that things have to play out and there are certain lines in the sand we humans cannot cross. We either choose to accept that God's will be done and retain our faith in God or we can reject it because we want our will to be done.

I believe that God answers some prayers, at His own discretion, when it is for the benefit of the person, but other prayers are not answered because God's intervention would cause more harm than good. I plan to write a post about that on this thread, since I plan to explain this to that man on eharmony.

That's exactly what I mean. I agree with you 100%.

 

[Brickjectivity]

As a matter of religious belief, I believe that God is loving, but when thinking analytically I cannot understand how a loving God would create a world with the potential for so much suffering. The problem is not that God does not rescue people from suffering, since I think that is ludicrous, the problem is that God created such a world in the first place! Why would God rescue us from the suffering that he intended for us to experience all along? It makes no sense.

One way of addressing this is somewhat like the 'Demiurge' concept of the gnostics but is not from the gnostics but is from Pauline letters. The physical universe is made by the evil Demiurge which in the NT is styled 'god of this world', and those who expect only good from that God are deceived. The God of love, however, is believed in instead of the God of this world, along with the belief that the God of this world will be less and less real while the God of love will be more and more real. There is therefore this fallen reality versus a better reality to come, and so you can believe in a good God as long as you reject the false one that has made this world. As the true reality becomes more real everything will have been created by the good God not the evil one (Demiurge).

Do I say you should believe the above? Not necessarily, however as you have pointed out the 'Good' God that you believe in is not consistent with whatever has made this fallen world. So perhaps this is something that might help you out in this pickle talking with your friend. He might like this idea of one reality fading in favor of another reality. There are some good things about it. For one thing it puts the onus upon you to be in this world but not of it, and so you are required to be a different and superior sort of creature. Also it places suffering into the category of the fallen world which is disappearing, including its past. Even though this point of view may be hard to embrace, it can function as a model when you are in doubt about the nature of reality. When reality seems inconsistent you can use it to explore and recon, because it posits that you are experiencing two realities not one.

 

[Trailblazer]

One way of addressing this is somewhat like the 'Demiurge' concept of the gnostics but is not from the gnostics but is from Pauline letters. The physical universe is made by the evil Demiurge which in the NT is styled 'god of this world', and those who expect only good from that God are deceived. The God of love, however, is believed in instead of the God of this world, along with the belief that the God of this world will be less and less real while the God of love will be more and more real. There is therefore this fallen reality versus a better reality to come, and so you can believe in a good God as long as you reject the false one that has made this world. As the true reality becomes more real everything will have been created by the good God not the evil one (Demiurge).

I see others have struggled with the same concepts. Thanks for the suggestions, but I am stuck with what I believe.
I believe there is only one God, the God who made this world, and that is the same God who is allegedly loving.
I believe there is a better reality to come, when we die and go to the next world, but we have to navigate our way through this world to get there.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Interesting post, Trailblazer! Thanks for sharing.

Even with this world being so messed up as it is, all of us have moments we enjoy, wouldn’t you agree? I’m sure you have pleasant memories of times you enjoyed with your husband (or somebody else like a close friend)…or maybe lovely places you’ve visited.

But isn’t it true that we only live 70 to 80 years? If we have good health, maybe longer. But if we have bad health, considerably less.

Really, though, isn’t +/- 80 years just a drop in the bucket compared with what’s ahead of us, i.e., eternity? That’s the prospect before us! John 17:3.

I want to express my condolences for the loss of your husband, but I believe that he too will have the opportunity to enjoy “the gift” of everlasting life in perfect health! John 5:28,29; Romans 6:23; Isaiah 33:24.