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A Challenge to Our Intelligence.

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I hope I don't have to tell you that I realize this and that I was referring to the original cadre of evanglists who had been trained by Jesus and who wrote the bulk of the New Testament.....

Do you mean random followers or are you suggesting that Yeshua's closest disciples are responsible for penning the gospels? I had to mull your above comment over for a minute because I was under the impression scholars (did not) associate "all" of the NT gospels to those they were named after.


Herman N. Ridderbos writes (Matthew, p. 7):
This means, however, that we can no longer accept the traditional view of Matthew's authorship. At least two things forbid us to do so. First, the tradition maintains that Matthew authored an Aramaic writing, while the standpoint I have adopted does not allow us to regard our Greek text as a translation of an Aramaic original. Second, it is extremely doubtful that an eyewitness like the apostle Matthew would have made such extensive use of material as a comparison of the two Gospels indicates. Mark, after all, did not even belong to the circle of the apostles. Indeed Matthew's Gospel surpasses those of the other synoptic writers neither in vividness of presentation nor in detail, as we would expect in an eyewitness report, yet neither Mark nor Luke had been among those who had followed Jesus from the beginning of His public ministry.
Francis Write Beare notes (The Gospel according to Matthew, p. 7):
But the dependence of the book upon documentary sources is so great as to forbid us to look upon it as the work of any immediate disciple of Jesus. Apart from that, there are clear indications that it is a product of the second or third Christian generation. The traditional name of Matthew is retained in modern discussion only for convenience.
As I said before, for some of these writings we have no idea who wrote them or what the religious affiliation was of the writer so I think it's amaturish to suggest they were jewish or even taught by Yeshua considering scholars say they weren't. I'm not saying (ALL) of the NT gospels but in the case of Mark and Matthew I don't think we are at the point of accepting they were Jews who were taught by Yeshua. Were they Jewish? Maybe. They, to a degree, were "familiar" with Jewish customs but again, they could have been Hellenistic Jews.


Well it's true that there is no consensus on exactly who the authors were in the case of the gospels. But there's no doubt they were Jewish.

Randel Helms writes concerning Mark 11:1 (Who Wrote the Gospels?, p. 6): "Anyone approaching Jerusalem from Jericho would come first to Bethany and then Bethphage, not the reverse.

Dennis Nineham argues, that 'Mark did not know the relative positions of these two villages on the Jericho road' (1963, 294-295). Indeed, Mark knew so little about the area that he described Jesus going from Tyrian territory 'by way of Sidon to the Sea of Galilee through the territory of the Ten Towns' (Mark 7:31); this is similar to saying that one goes from London to Paris by way of Edinburgh and Rome. The simplist solution, says Nineham, is that 'the evangelist was not directly acquainted with Palestine' (40)."

Robert Eisenman writes (James the Brother of Jesus, p. 56): "From the same internal textual considerations already noted, it is possible to show that Mark, too, was written after the fall of the Temple in 70 CE. The whole nature of its anti-Jewish polemic and opposition to the family and brothers of Jesus on the one hand and its pro-Peter orientation on the other distinguish it as having appeared after the destruction of the Jerusalem centre - in particular, after the attempt by the Roman Community to represent itself as the legitimate heir to Jesus and the Messianic movement he represented, however absurd, historically speaking, that might have seemed to any objective observer at the time."

Eisenman comments (op. cit., p. 56): "There are, in fact, several veiled references to events of this kind in the Gospel of Mark, for instance, in the introuduction to the Little Apocalypse, where Jesus is made to predict the utter destruction of the Temple (13:1-2) and in the Apocalypse itself, when the Pauline Mission is anticipated (13:9-10) - but, even more importantly, in the depiction of the rending of the Temple veil at his death (Mark 15:38 and pars.). This veil was more than likely damaged in the final Roman assault on the Temple or in the various altercations and the turmoil preceding this. Josephus specifically refers to it, along with its replacement materials, as having been delivered over to the Romans after the assault on the Temple. It was doubtless on display in Rome, damaged or otherwise, along with the rest of the booty Josephus describes as having been paraded in Titus' Triumph."

Even though Mark is considered the earliest of the four gospels there is no indication he was a follower of Yeshua. It appears he was more likely a follower and interpreter of Peter.

The writer of the book of Luke I covered. He wasn't a Jew. He's classified as a gentile and he was a follower of Paul. He didn't know Yeshua but outright says he received his information from thos who said they knew Yeshua. Although I do admit him being Jew or Gentile is still debatable amongst scholars and theologians. It's clear, even though he was a writer, he didn't seem to have known Yeshua.

The other books scholars are in agreement they were Jewish and may have been written by the ones who bare their name (i.e. James, Jude, 1st Peter,). It is believed 2nd Peter has a different author than the first. Some others still have question marks as to the writers of (i.e. 1st John, 2nd John, 3rd John). It is believed 2nd and 3rd John have the same author. But there is still debate that the Gospel of John and 1st John have the same author.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Paul was certainly a Jew. So was James. The author of Matthew was almost certainly a Jew. Count it up. That amounts to the "bulk of the NT."
 

logician

Well-Known Member
A challenge to our intelligence would be to believe any stories that claimed people could rise from the daad.

Leave it for the horror movie genre.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
So let me ask....
A man of Jewish faith is questioning the details of Christian faith, and has shaded the pending discussion as something less than intelligent?
I can completely understand his concern over the perversion of his religious beliefs.

Why can't you?
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Religious miracles should be repeatable.
but it was repeated:
Elijah raised a child from the dead (1Kings 17:17, 1Kings 21-22);
Samuel said to Saul, "Why hast thou disquietedme, to bring me" (1Sam. 28.7, 11, 15);
Elisha raised the dead son of a Shunammite ( 2 Kings 4:32, 2 Kings 34-35);
a dead man being lowered into a grave revived when he touched the bones of Elisha (2 Kings 13:21);
Moses and Elijah revived at the time of the Transfiguration ( Luke 9:28, 30);
the saints arose at the time of Jesus' death ( Matthew 27:52-53 );
Jairus' daughter rose from the dead (Matthew 9:18, Matthew 23-25 );
the widow at Nain's son rose from the dead (Luke 7:11-15 );
Lazarus rose from the dead ( John 11:43-44 )
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Paul was certainly a Jew. So was James. The author of Matthew was almost certainly a Jew. Count it up. That amounts to the "bulk of the NT."

The claim wasn't so much that they were Jewish. I can concede that. A claim had been made that they were taught by the biblical Yeshua. This is not entirely accurate. There is no indication Mark was but merely a follower and interpreter of Peter and Matthew and Luke copied from Mark. Paul, although Jewish, never knew or met Yeshua so any of his esoteric claims of being taught by Yeshua (spiritually) are his alone.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
There is no indication Mark was but merely a follower and interpreter of Peter and Matthew and Luke copied from Mark.

Matthew and Luke did not merely copy from Mark. Most likely they both had access to sources unique to them (usually referred to as M and L) as well as Q.


Paul, although Jewish, never knew or met Yeshua

We don't know that. Paul was a contemporary of Jesus, and moved in the same circles and places. He may very well have met Jesus. He certainly was not a follower until after Jesus died.

so any of his esoteric claims of being taught by Yeshua (spiritually) are his alone.
Wrong. Because he did meet and learn from Jesus' followers. And, at one point, he specifically distinguishes between Jesus' teaching and his own. Had he nothing to go on but his own views of what the risen christ held to, there would be no reason for this.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Matthew and Luke did not merely copy from Mark. Most likely they both had access to sources unique to them (usually referred to as M and L) as well as Q.

I don't dispute that at all. I simply consider they were privy to Mark's (the writer of Mark) book. The differences in the stories could have been from the supposed eyewitnesses. This is similar to what we find with Luke who says he received his information from those who said they were witnesses. I'm not saying there wasn't a common source (i.e. Q) Matthew and Luke drew from but as you have said before and what we find in Luke..some of what we see was taken by word of mouth.


We don't know that. Paul was a contemporary of Jesus, and moved in the same circles and places. He may very well have met Jesus. He certainly was not a follower until after Jesus died.

He most likely didn't. From what I can tell he doesn't seem to have had any physical interaction with Yeshua....well at least in all of his letters etc. he doesn't indicate he did.

Wrong. Because he did meet and learn from Jesus' followers.

:sarcastic...Yes. It is written he met with them and it appears he studied under them...but prior to that his claim was that the spiritual Yeshua spoke with him on the road to Damascus. This is a claim that can not be verified and one must take it on faith that such an event happened. That seems to be exactly what he claims in the beginning of Galatians as well. So we have no information by Paul of any physical interaction but it all appears spiritual and directly from Paul of said interactions with no corroboration from independent witnesses.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
We don't know that. Paul was a contemporary of Jesus, and moved in the same circles and places. He may very well have met Jesus.

Paul and Jesus were probably lovers, that's why Paul claims never to have known him or his followers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.1 Galatians , he was trying to keep a secret.
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
that's why Paul claims never to have known him or his followers

Your quote says nothing of the sort. The greek simply states that the "good news" Paul preached was not something man made up. It does not say he never new Jesus.


that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up. 12I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.1 Galatians , he was trying to keep a secret.

And yet, if he received all of Jesus' teachings via "revelations" that he simply made up or took as his own, why did he distinguish his teachings from those of Jesus?

1Co 7:10 And unto the married I command,yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:

1Co 7:12
But to the rest speak I, not the Lord

If you need an analysis of the greek to understand Paul's differentiation between his and Jesus' teachings here, I know you can't read the greek, and I would be more than happy to provide such an analysis.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
No thanks, I've read your unique brand of translations before. They're in a world of their own.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Can you understand our concern over the perversion of ours?
Not really.
I mean with over 30,000 denominations of Christianity, it seems to me that Christians really are not all that concerned with it, so why should I?
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
The claim wasn't so much that they were Jewish. I can concede that. A claim had been made that they were taught by the biblical Yeshua. This is not entirely accurate. There is no indication Mark was but merely a follower and interpreter of Peter and Matthew and Luke copied from Mark. Paul, although Jewish, never knew or met Yeshua so any of his esoteric claims of being taught by Yeshua (spiritually) are his alone.

My original claim was indeed too strong. My actual claim is that the bulk of the NT was written by Jews. My actual position is "all" but for purposes of argument, I'm happy to say "most." And I also claim that the Christians were no different from the various Pharisaical movements, the Essenes, and the Zealots in rethinking their Judaism in light of historical events. Doing so isn't "perverting" Judaism, it's thinking it through.
 

Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Not really.
I mean with over 30,000 denominations of Christianity, it seems to me that Christians really are not all that concerned with it, so why should I?

You have exactly zero idea what it means what it means to create a denomination. It doesn't imply different belief.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
You have exactly zero idea what it means what it means to create a denomination. It doesn't imply different belief.
Oh.
My bad.

i was completely unaware that when people completely agree with each other that they go and not only create another denomination, but then tell the old denomination how they are wrong.
oh wait....

next you are going to claim that having over 30,000 proves that Christianity is not a divided religion, right?
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
My original claim was indeed too strong. My actual claim is that the bulk of the NT was written by Jews. My actual position is "all" but for purposes of argument, I'm happy to say "most." And I also claim that the Christians were no different from the various Pharisaical movements, the Essenes, and the Zealots in rethinking their Judaism in light of historical events.

I can agree to that.

Doing so isn't "perverting" Judaism, it's thinking it through.

Jews may argue differently to that.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
You have exactly zero idea what it means what it means to create a denomination. It doesn't imply different belief.

Not true....various sects believe Yeshua was God, others don't. One, that I know of believes he was an angel in heaven, others don't. Some believe he was created by "God" others don't

The core belief is preached by all...that...Yeshua was born of a virgin, preached the gospel, healed the sick, died for the sins of humanity, was crucified and raised on the third day and ascended to heaven.....was/is the prophesied Messiah and Savior..etc...etc...

But even thought the core belief is the same the sub-beliefs (traditions) set them apart. We find these contrast when comparing the catholics, protestants, seventh day adventist, jehovah's witness, coptic, mormons...etc...
 
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Dunemeister

Well-Known Member
Jews may argue differently to that.

Then they'll have to say that the Essenes, Pharisees, the rabbis who came later, and the Zealots all have perverted Judaism, which implies that modern Judaisms are all perversions. I don't think they would like to go there.
 
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