7-year-old transgender child closes down Girl Scout troops

[Drolefille]

Watching the discussion from the sidelines for awhile---I thought it a good one and didn't want to interrupt ---here's my opinion.

If a governing GSA council is in agreement with the GSA Colorado Council's position, "If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout," then this should be made clear to all parents of current and potential Girl Scouts. Parents can deal with the possibility as they choose, and no transgender child need be identified as such.

Here's my thing. If the parents that would be bothered by a trans girl's membership want to ask, they can. But why can't the assumption be that an organization is going to be inclusive, rather than having to announce that they are inclusive. Should the GSA have to announce that they accept members of all races so parents who have an 'issue' with that can leave? Or can we just assume that they're racially inclusive and parents who want a Daisy camp for Stormfront can go find one?

(And from what I can look up, yes the CO council is in accord with the national council. Initially the child was excluded, perhaps in part because the mom is still struggling with the pronoun change. When the troop leader asked her superiors they contacted the family to straighten things out. It's not clear if Bobby's actually a member at the moment or not due to the initial confusion although Bobby's big sister is.)

 

[Drolefille]

Is Kathryn's point really so difficult to understand?

Do not assume that disagreement is due to lack of understanding.

 

[Apex]

Do not assume that disagreement is due to lack of understanding.

I have been reading the entire discourse as it has been occurring. From my persepective, it is definitely due to a lack of understanding.

 

[Drolefille]

Actually I didn't say I know NOTHING about it. I know as much, or probably more, than the average layperson.

Which is saying very little and despite your ignorance you'd rather assert how right you are than learn from people with knowledge. Even if you ignore me because you dislike me, Shadow Wolf is who you should be listening to.
Things you are saying like sex and gender are hard to separate are not necessarily true. They are to you but that is due to your experience and lack of knowledge on the topic.

I have not made a decision about the mother's motivation. I am QUESTIONING her motivation. In other words, I am a skeptical, questioning, curious, and objective person - traits that have served me well in my career and life in general.

Funny how people are skeptical and questioning primarily of that with which they disagree.

Seven years old is not old enough to decide whether or not you will gender-identify as a girl or a boy for the rest of your life.

Either every seven year old is questioning their gender identity or your logic is flawed here. Gender identity disorder in children is its own 'diagnosis' and every scientific, psychological and medical organization recommends supporting the child, not trying to get the child to change their minds. The only people that try to 'treat' it in children or adults are the equivalent of gay reparative therapy. Because gender identity is how we present ourselves to the world, Bobby's a girl.

Huge hypothetical: Even if, Bobby identifies as male again as an adult, so what? Why would it matter?

Cultures across the world, large and small, have examples of trans, third or other gender identities besides 'man' and 'woman.' And this occurred in children too there. It's not a new or a Western thing.

As for the charge of trolling or "willfully refusing to educate myself," - those aren't the only options, even if they may be in your world. There's another option - I don't agree with your assessment of the situation.

We know, you disagree with the 'choices' or 'lifestyle' but you think you're being really open minded by being able to talk about it politely. You disagree with what therapists and scientists and everyone who's an expert in the field says about the situation. And while you're entitled to your opinion, that doesn't keep it from being transphobic and harmful by the nature of it being transphobic.

Well, they don't have to worry about any of that from me. I believe in treating others as I want to be treated, regardless of their lifestyle choices. I am not and will not be rude or abusive - let alone MURDEROUS - to anyone.

As long as you never say them in front of the people you're actually talking about you're probably fine. I hope you never talk about this topic in front of actual trans youth.

I do, however, reserve the right to discuss this topic, and others, honestly and sincerely, on this forum. If that "hurts other people," my gosh, I'm certainly sorry. I haven't disrespected anyone regarding this topic. However, I do realize that some people have a very low tolerance of anyone who disagrees with them.

Oh goodie, you have the right. Just like homophobia, racism and sexism, you have the right to be transphobic. Being polite about it doesn't make it better, although I have a hard time calling you polite or sincere when you're throwing around the *gasp* "my gosh" faux apologies.

Your words are disrespectful on their face, even if you're polite as poison to the people you're speaking to. I can be a polite and condescending racist, sexist, homophobe or transphobe as well, but that wouldn't make me right.

 

[Drolefille]

I have been reading the entire discourse as it has been occurring. From my persepective, it is definitely due to a lack of understanding.

Feel free to elaborate.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Quit trying to force your concept of my agenda down my throat.

I'm not trying to force anything. All I'm trying to do is figure out what position you're arguing, but you seem to be dancing around enough that it's hard for me to tell what that position actually is.

What I've said is that parents have the right to know what to expect as far as admission into the Girl Scout troop that they enroll their daughter in. If this could include transgender children, whose genitals don't "match up with" the other kids, the parents have a right to know that, so they can either prepare their child for that possibility of discovery, or choose not to enroll their child.

Hence my question about whether or not the Scout policy has been changed officially, amended, or expanded and whether or not that policy applies to all locations of Girl Scouts.

While it seems the GSA has made a statement clarifying its policy, since its inception, it's been an organization for girls. Accepting transgendered girls is completely in keeping with this policy.

If there's any question about policy in all this, it's why a collection of leaders in Louisiana would think that the Girl Scout Law - the core statement of policy for the entire organization - doesn't matter any more.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Is Kathryn's point really so difficult to understand?

Is it difficult to understand the position of someone who is not only in a similar situation as the girl in the OP story, but also knows many people both online and in real life that are in a similar situation, and of someone who has done extensive research on the subject and plans on specializing in issues related to sex, gender and sexuality as a therapist?
Her position isn't hard to understand at all. It's actually very similar to the "concerns" people have about gay men being child molesters. There is no basis for it, and is nothing more than a fantasy propagated by those who are living in fear. Fear of that which they don't understand, fear of change, fear their thoughts may no longer hold sway or power, and fear that what they think they know is a lie. Only with this particular issue it's that someone who identifies as and presents as female is a possible threat because she has a penis, even though she probably dislikes her penis enough to have thought about or has tried to remove it herself, although attempts are more common in young children whereas adults tend to think about it and wish moreso than try it. But nevertheless a handful of adult MtF are hospitalized occasionally for attempting to cut off their penis and testicles.
Her position of genitals and genes also have no basis, as the many examples posted here have clearly demonstrated. This view stems from our societies strict binary gender views of penis and testicles = male and breasts and vagina = female. There are just so many inbetweens this view cannot hold in any logical debate, and there are far more people that are born with some intersexed condition that what most people realize. Actually because being intersexed is not always the ambiguous genitals that are surgically altered just after birth, many people that are intersexed do not know they are and never find out.
Her position on the mom and the "sensationalism" has no grounds either. There are many possibilities of what happened for it to become noticed, many of them legit. Many people, especially friends and family that knew a person before he/she began to transition will occasionally slip up and use former gender nouns. Even transsexuals themselves will occasionally slip up just because it's habit. The mom accidentally refering to her daughter as a son may have been what caused it. It may have been the mom asked ahead of time to make sure it would be ok. But you simply cannot rewire someone's brain to alter their gender identity. My own mom tried very hard to rid myself of any interest in girl's things, I tried even harder as a teen. And in years methods similar to reparative therapy were used, and even more aggressive things like shock-therapy, all of them to about the same degree of success that is found in today's reparative therapy programs. It is a possibility the mom is playing games, but it's very doubtful and Bobby would probably be showing signs of abuse if that were the case.
And her "right to know" has been the undoing of many. Transsexuals often struggle very hard to assimilate into society unnoticed, and all it takes is one person who thinks they "have" to know to find out, let a few people know, and suddenly everyone knows. Careers have been ruined, families have crumbled from the prejudice (even if the family DID know), people loose their homes, and sometimes there lives because someone just had to know. But technically though, gender identity dysphoria and all of the treatment options and paths are considered to be medical information regarding a patient under the care of a medical health professional, which means no one has the right to know because HIPAA laws make it so that any and all medical information regarding a patient is strictly confidential and is to be released only to those whom the patient has authorized, with the only exception being a court ordered subpoena.

Seven years old is not old enough to decide whether or not you will gender-identify as a girl or a boy for the rest of your life.

I knew even younger than that. Most of us do. In my situation my mom simply would not have it. She wouldn't even let me have an Easy Bake Oven when I was very young because it was for girls, and I was just thinking how cool it would be to be able to make my own baked stuff. Then it was the fear of God's wraith and going to hell that kept me back. Then it was my own denials. But many of us do actually know at a very young age.

Well, they don't have to worry about any of that from me. I believe in treating others as I want to be treated, regardless of their lifestyle choices. I am not and will not be rude or abusive - let alone MURDEROUS - to anyone.

I do, however, reserve the right to discuss this topic, and others, honestly and sincerely, on this forum. If that "hurts other people," my gosh, I'm certainly sorry. I haven't disrespected anyone regarding this topic. However, I do realize that some people have a very low tolerance of anyone who disagrees with them.

What we are trying to do is show you your views on sex, gender, and a sense of a right to know may not be directly damaging to a transsexual. You may not wish any harm upon anyone. But those around you and also find out may not have the same feelings as you, and will set out to do as much harm as they can. The thing about being afraid of a transwoman's penis is how those of a higher hierarchy get those below them to be afraid of, and refrain from learning anything real or honest about the situation. It is no different than being afraid that a gay man will molest your child. Also concerning children, all research indicates there is nothing to be worried about. Children must learn to hate and dislike, or they can learn to accept people as they are. It just will not be the end of the world if your daughter were to see a girl with a penis, it won't be damaging to her mental health, and it presents an opportunity to educate your child about the diversity of the human race, on both the biological and cultural aspects (as I would assume your children are already familiar with being a multi-ethnic family, so why not expand even further?).

 

[Drolefille]

Is it difficult to understand the position of someone who is not only in a similar situation as the girl in the OP story, but also knows many people both online and in real life that are in a similar situation, and of someone who has done extensive research on the subject and plans on specializing in issues related to sex, gender and sexuality as a therapist?
Her position isn't hard to understand at all. It's actually very similar to the "concerns" people have about gay men being child molesters. There is no basis for it, and is nothing more than a fantasy propagated by those who are living in fear. Fear of that which they don't understand, fear of change, fear their thoughts may no longer hold sway or power, and fear that what they think they know is a lie. Only with this particular issue it's that someone who identifies as and presents as female is a possible threat because she has a penis, even though she probably dislikes her penis enough to have thought about or has tried to remove it herself, although attempts are more common in young children whereas adults tend to think about it and wish moreso than try it. But nevertheless a handful of adult MtF are hospitalized occasionally for attempting to cut off their penis and testicles.
Her position of genitals and genes also have no basis, as the many examples posted here have clearly demonstrated. This view stems from our societies strict binary gender views of penis and testicles = male and breasts and vagina = female. There are just so many inbetweens this view cannot hold in any logical debate, and there are far more people that are born with some intersexed condition that what most people realize. Actually because being intersexed is not always the ambiguous genitals that are surgically altered just after birth, many people that are intersexed do not know they are and never find out.
Her position on the mom and the "sensationalism" has no grounds either. There are many possibilities of what happened for it to become noticed, many of them legit. Many people, especially friends and family that knew a person before he/she began to transition will occasionally slip up and use former gender nouns. Even transsexuals themselves will occasionally slip up just because it's habit. The mom accidentally refering to her daughter as a son may have been what caused it. It may have been the mom asked ahead of time to make sure it would be ok. But you simply cannot rewire someone's brain to alter their gender identity. My own mom tried very hard to rid myself of any interest in girl's things, I tried even harder as a teen. And in years methods similar to reparative therapy were used, and even more aggressive things like shock-therapy, all of them to about the same degree of success that is found in today's reparative therapy programs. It is a possibility the mom is playing games, but it's very doubtful and Bobby would probably be showing signs of abuse if that were the case.
And her "right to know" has been the undoing of many. Transsexuals often struggle very hard to assimilate into society unnoticed, and all it takes is one person who thinks they "have" to know to find out, let a few people know, and suddenly everyone knows. Careers have been ruined, families have crumbled from the prejudice (even if the family DID know), people loose their homes, and sometimes there lives because someone just had to know. But technically though, gender identity dysphoria and all of the treatment options and paths are considered to be medical information regarding a patient under the care of a medical health professional, which means no one has the right to know because HIPAA laws make it so that any and all medical information regarding a patient is strictly confidential and is to be released only to those whom the patient has authorized, with the only exception being a court ordered subpoena.

I knew even younger than that. Most of us do. In my situation my mom simply would not have it. She wouldn't even let me have an Easy Bake Oven when I was very young because it was for girls, and I was just thinking how cool it would be to be able to make my own baked stuff. Then it was the fear of God's wraith and going to hell that kept me back. Then it was my own denials. But many of us do actually know at a very young age.

What we are trying to do is show you your views on sex, gender, and a sense of a right to know may not be directly damaging to a transsexual. You may not wish any harm upon anyone. But those around you and also find out may not have the same feelings as you, and will set out to do as much harm as they can. The thing about being afraid of a transwoman's penis is how those of a higher hierarchy get those below them to be afraid of, and refrain from learning anything real or honest about the situation. It is no different than being afraid that a gay man will molest your child. Also concerning children, all research indicates there is nothing to be worried about. Children must learn to hate and dislike, or they can learn to accept people as they are. It just will not be the end of the world if your daughter were to see a girl with a penis, it won't be damaging to her mental health, and it presents an opportunity to educate your child about the diversity of the human race, on both the biological and cultural aspects (as I would assume your children are already familiar with being a multi-ethnic family, so why not expand even further?).

I cannot frubal you more. But this is so excellent I'm going to remember and frubal you later.

 

[Skwim]

Here's my thing. If the parents that would be bothered by a trans girl's membership want to ask, they can. But why can't the assumption be that an organization is going to be inclusive, rather than having to announce that they are inclusive. Should the GSA have to announce that they accept members of all races so parents who have an 'issue' with that can leave? Or can we just assume that they're racially inclusive and parents who want a Daisy camp for Stormfront can go find one?

Because of the huge amount of publicity racial discrimination got some years ago it was soon evident where various groups stood on the issue, so there was no reason for the scouts to make it formally known. However, In the case of the transgendered it's quite a different matter. I don't believe many people even know such children exist, much less that they may be trying to get into an organization that normally only allows those of the opposite sex. And, there are still a lot of people who don't think or aren't sure transgender children should socialize with normal children, including 29% of Republicans and 31% of born-again Christians.

"71% of Republicans and 69% of born-again Christians agree that transgendered kids should be allowed to attend public schools"
source
​

And because it's quite evident that some people object to such an allowance---the troop leaders mentioned in the OP being prime examples---I think it prudent that the GSA make its position known. I believe it serves the interests of the transgender child, the other children, the troop, and the parents.

 

[Drolefille]

Because of the huge amount of publicity racial discrimination got some years ago it was soon evident where various groups stood on the issue, so there was no reason for the scouts to make it formally known. However, In the case of the transgendered it's quite a different matter. I don't believe many people even know such children exist, much less that they may be trying to get into an organization that normally only allows those of the opposite sex. And, there are still a lot of people who don't think or aren't sure transgender children should socialize with normal children, including 29% of Republicans and 31% of born-again Christians.

"71% of Republicans and 69% of born-again Christians agree that transgendered kids should be allowed to attend public schools"
source
​

And because it's quite evident that some people object to such an allowance---the troop leaders mentioned in the OP being prime examples---I think it prudent that the GSA make its position known. I believe serves the interests of the transgender child, the other children, the troop, and the parents.

And I think they've done so here by doing this. But it's awfully frustrating for a minority to have to check a list to see if they're included or not. It feels like caving to the sort of parents who are perfectly fine with the idea of gay people and that nice man down the street who lives alone is ok, but their CHILD being GAY or having a GAY FRIEND, the horror! (Or bringing home a black girl or boyfriend, or worse a gay black girl or boyfriend.)

I feel like the less attention drawn to it, the better. Trans parents can do exactly what this child's mom did if they're uncertain. But I think that even if they put that on their website, some people wouldn't be happy if it weren't read aloud at every single meeting just in case someone didn't know. Idk, it's a balancing act, I think.

 

[Skwim]

And I think they've done so here by doing this. But it's awfully frustrating for a minority to have to check a list to see if they're included or not. It feels like caving to the sort of parents who are perfectly fine with the idea of gay people and that nice man down the street who lives alone is ok, but their CHILD being GAY or having a GAY FRIEND, the horror! (Or bringing home a black girl or boyfriend, or worse a gay black girl or boyfriend.)

Yeah.

I feel like the less attention drawn to it, the better. Trans parents can do exactly what this child's mom did if they're uncertain. But I think that even if they put that on their website, some people wouldn't be happy if it weren't read aloud at every single meeting just in case someone didn't know. Idk, it's a balancing act, I think.

I recognize that what I suggest may have its drawbacks: however, I don't believe they outweigh the pluses. If it becomes general knowledge, at least among those who might seek out the Scouts, that it does accept transgender kids then it should never become an issue. It will be a given, just as racial equality in Scouting is today.

 

[Drolefille]

Yeah.

I recognize that what I suggest may have its drawbacks: however, I don't believe they outweigh the pluses. If it becomes general knowledge, at least among those who might seek out the Scouts, that it does accept transgender kids then it should never become an issue. It will be a given, just as racial equality in Scouting is today.

Oh yeah I do understand. It's just frustrating sometimes is all.

GSA is a pretty awesome org though, regardless

 

[Kathryn]

Yes, views like yours. You've already stated that chromosomes and genitals are the determining factor, (never mind many of us have thoroughly debunked that), that just because someone has a penis they are more likely to sexually assault women (even though a transwomen identifies as a women and typically have a strong disliking of their penis in the sameway transmen have a disliking of their breasts. And hormone therapy makes it very difficult to achieve and sustain an erection anyways, so there really isn't any issue), and that your "right to know" takes precedence over another's right to privacy over such a delicate issue, and that transsexuals should not be allowed to use the restroom of the sex they are presenting as, even though you will never actually see what sort of genitals they have. And YOUR view, which would offend just about any MtF out there:

I'm sorry to use this word but bull ****.

I said that genitals and DNA determine the SEX of a person - not the gender.

I said that sexual assaults are more often perpetrated by those with penises than by those without. How is that not true? I didn't say that transwomen sexually assault people more than non transwomen.

I said that as a parent, I have the right to know BEFORE THE SITUATION PRESENTS ITSELF TO MY CHILD if an organization that is gender specific (such as GIRL Scouts) knowingly allows transgender membership. The reason why is because the vast majority of parents, and people in general, assume that if someone has a penis, they are male, not female. If the policy to accept transgender membership is clearly outlined in the membership manual, then the parents will know to prepare their child for the possibility of some surprises.

This would actually be BENEFICIAL to a transgender person. It could defuse some potentially harmful scenarios which could be detrimental to all involved.

I NEVER said that anyone's privacy should be violated. I NEVER said that any child should be singled out specifically.

I never said a transsexual child should not be allowed to use a restroom that is gender specific either, for that matter.

As for my opinion offending anyone - I don't walk around in public denouncing transsexual people. I don't treat transsexual people poorly. I don't ridicule them or deny them any rights. The only reason I'm discussing my opinion on the matter here is because, well, that's what we do on this forum. I don't have little girls anymore, either, so the issue would be moot in my personal life. But if I did have little girls who were interested in joining Scouts, I would want to know what the Scout policy is on transgender membership, so I could make an informed decision on whether or not I allowed my girls to join, and if so, how I prepared them for the possibility of coming across a transgender member, or whether or not I allowed them to fully participate in all activities, including those which may include intimate situations.

As a parent, those are my rights - AND MY RESPONSIBILITY.

You're the one who said genes and genitals are the end all of the decision,

Nope, I didn't say this, but it's interesting that you'd think I did.

What I said is that our determination of who is male and who is female has to have SOME sort of basis in reality. Male and female are actually pretty clearly defined physically. If you have male sexual organs and male DNA, you're male. Now as for your GENDER, you can feel and behave and dress and carry yourself any way you decide or feel compelled to do so. That doesn't change your physiology. But that's YOUR decision, and it's your right to make that decision. I never said otherwise, and in fact, I fully support your right to think, behave, dress, and carry yourself any way you want to.

that biological lineage is the same as sex,

Right, and I do believe that. As has been so succinctly pointed out repeatedly on this thread, sex and gender are not the same thing.

and that it is your right to know sensitive information that is quite frankly none of your damn business.

It IS my damn business if my daughter is involved. I'll repeat myself - I never said that I need to know SPECIFICALLY about individuals. I said I need to clearly know the Scout policy - it needs to be outlined in the membership policy. That way, as a RESPONSIBLE PARENT, I can make INFORMED DECISIONS when it comes to MY children.

That IS my damn business.

How will your child seeing a nude body, of the same sex or opposite, in anyways be detrimental to their development? Individual modesty is one thing, but to make a dragon out of a gecko is another.

It isn't that hard to explain to a child that sometimes people are born as one sex, but there brain developed as the opposite sex. Or what if a cisgirl happens to have an enlarged clitoris that your daughter mistakes for a penis? Again, such information is not any of your business if that was an abnormally large clitoris or a penis your daughter saw. It's a group of girls learning various skills and making friends. Why worry? Everyone is different, some people were just born with the wrong sex organs.

It's my responsibility as a parent to determine, as much as possible, when and how my child is introduced to such delicate situations. That's not making a dragon out of a gecko. Please quit being so hysterical.

And using transwomen and rapist in the same sentence like you do is how those who have money who hate us get other people to be afraid of and hate us.

Well, for starters, I didn't do this. Once again - drop the hysteria. I did not compare or equivocate transsexuals and rapists.

I don't hate you or encourage anyone to hate you.

By the way, you want the right to be honest. I do too. Honesty goes both ways.

There are many Conservative blogs, news sources, and other such things that use such phrases, such as the very one you used of "what is to stop sexual predators" to discriminate against transsexuals. Florida awhile ago made it legal for people to use the restroom of the sex they are presenting as, and guess what the counter adds had? Fears of sexual predators.

To be quite honest with you, I don't recall ever reading ANY article about the subject of "bathroom rights for transsexuals" any where and any time. You know why? Because I don't have much of a vested interest in the topic. I'm not a transsexual, I don't care if others are, and I don't care who uses what public restroom, as long as they are discreet.

Oh, and I don't have kids that I would send off to a public restroom unattended. If I did, the topic might be of more interest to me (for that matter, I'm losing interest in the topic anyway - I'm at the point now where I am repeating myself for about the third time).

The question about sexual predators came to my own head, FROM my own line of reasoning - it didn't come from any outside source. The reason why it came to my head is because I am a logical person, and it is a logical question.

Do you have an answer for it, rather than a hysterical response?

Why not do the sensible thing and let your child decide for herself?

It's not always prudent or age appropriate for a parent to let kids decide everything for themselves. Furthermore, I'd like the opportunity to make an informed decision as a parent.

If the troop had people shooting up every week there would be a real concern, but that your daughter might see her friend's penis through her underwear is a very trivial concern,

Or in the shower, or in a public restroom, or any other number of scenarios. I have four kids - I know how kids act. They can be pretty random - as well as curious, cruel, and inappropriate. And that includes transgender kids.

You also seem to be forgetting another common scenario. What if it's not my daughter who discovers Bobby's "secret?" What if it's some other kid, and the rumor mill and ganging up begins. I'd prefer that my daughter is not caught off guard, so that she can be emotionally and mentally prepared with an appropriate reaction.

And if I don't WANT for her to be exposed to this particular scenario, I can make an informed decision to withdraw her from Scouts. I'm not saying I would do that - but it's a parent's right to make that determination.

 

[Kathryn]

Is Kathryn's point really so difficult to understand?

Only for those who refuse to understand it.

 

[Kathryn]

Watching the discussion from the sidelines for awhile---I thought it a good one and didn't want to interrupt ---here's my opinion.

If a governing GSA council is in agreement with the GSA Colorado Council's position, "If a child identifies as a girl and the child's family presents her as a girl, Girl Scouts of Colorado welcomes her as a Girl Scout," then this should be made clear to all parents of current and potential Girl Scouts. Parents can then deal with the possibility as they choose, and no transgender child need be identified as such.

Amen and frubals.

 

[Kathryn]

Which is saying very little and despite your ignorance you'd rather assert how right you are than learn from people with knowledge.

What I am right about is what I am being assertive about - parental rights. You may not agree with me on that one, but frankly, when it comes to my kids and grandkids, that doesn't matter.

Even if you ignore me because you dislike me, Shadow Wolf is who you should be listening to.

First of all, I don't know you, so I don't like or dislike you. Secondly, I AM listening to Shadow Wolf, and to you, and to everyone else participating on this thread. However, it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that not many people are listening to what I am actually saying.

Things you are saying like sex and gender are hard to separate are not necessarily true. They are to you but that is due to your experience and lack of knowledge on the topic.

Not just to me, buddy. Hell, they're hard to determine and separate (if indeed they need to be separated) by the very people struggling with sexual and gender identity.

Funny how people are skeptical and questioning primarily of that with which they disagree.

Honey, I'm a bank manager, the mother of four, and I've been divorced twice. I'm skeptical of EVERYONE.

Huge hypothetical: Even if, Bobby identifies as male again as an adult, so what? Why would it matter?

It might matter very much if Bobby decides that when Bobby is, oh, 12 or 14 or so and involved in activities which are gender specific due in part to the intimate nature of some of the activities.

If it doesn't matter, hell, let's just do away with male and female dressing rooms altogether.

We know, you disagree with the 'choices' or 'lifestyle' but you think you're being really open minded by being able to talk about it politely.

This is too general a determination which simply can't be made, for me or anyone else, because there are too many individual idiosyncracies involved in any one scenario.

As for being open minded - I am libertarian. I have my own set of values, but I don't impose them on other consenting adults.

You would probably disagree with my particular value system. Let's hope you would be able to discuss our differences politely. But does your disagreement with my value system mean that you're not open minded?

You disagree with what therapists and scientists and everyone who's an expert in the field says about the situation.

How so? Please give an example - and please stick to the topic of transgender children. Don't get sidetracked on when or where or how kids should see each other's genitals. The parents should be able to teach their own value system about exposed genitals to their young children, for pete's sake.

As long as you never say them in front of the people you're actually talking about you're probably fine. I hope you never talk about this topic in front of actual trans youth.

I am a kind and considerate person. You don't have to worry about me being cruel. I will, however, be honest if anyone asks me a direct question. I would probably ask why they wanted to know my opinion on the matter first, however.

Your words are disrespectful on their face, even if you're polite as poison to the people you're speaking to. I can be a polite and condescending racist, sexist, homophobe or transphobe as well, but that wouldn't make me right.

I find this rant ironic. I've been accused on this thread of lumping rapists and transgender people into one group (which I didn't do, by the way) and now I'm being lumped in with racists and sexists and homophobes.



Such hypocrisy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

First of all, I don't know you, so I don't like or dislike you. Secondly, I AM listening to Shadow Wolf, and to you, and to everyone else participating on this thread. However, it is becoming increasingly obvious to me that not many people are listening to what I am actually saying.

I'm listening to what you're saying, but I think there are motivations behind your position that you're not letting on.

I mean, if someone came on here saying "they let Buddhists into the Girl Scouts now? They should really make an announcement if they're going to do that sort of thing! Parents should have the right to decide for themselves whether they want to have their daughters exposed to those sorts of people!" would you really believe that all they're concerned with is "parental rights"?

 

[Draka]

Holy crap, I've been hesitant to wade back into this thread and what it's become, but...I take my chances.

I think everyone is putting words in Kathryn's mouth and concocting motivations for her.

Honestly, I think that since sex and gender are such sensitive subjects that just wanting a little heads up to what a child might be exposed to so that a parent can prepare their child or determine if their child is mature enough to understand, isn't asking much. It certainly doesn't need to be compared to discrimination or racism or the like by saying something like "exposed to those sorts of people". As if she's saying something bad. She didn't say that she would yank her kids away, she said she would just want to know the policies of who is accepted into an organization so that she could determine if and how her kids might have to be educated about possible situations or people they might come into contact with. A parent might not even think about the possibility that their daughter might come into contact with a transgender girl in Girl Scouts. It might not even cross their mind. If they knew ahead of time that it was a possibility then they would have the chance to explain what that meant to their daughter before their daughter is caught off-guard.

I haven't seen Kathryn say anything hateful or bigoted here. I've just seen her advocating for upfront information to parents about possible situations in general so that parents can sit down with their kids to prepare them or decide whether their children are mature enough to handle such situations at all.

I think a lot of word twisting and assumptions have been going on here and I don't think it necessary. To me, the thread seems to have deteriorated into a "let's gang up on Kathryn" thing for things people think she's saying instead of taking her comments at face value. Granted, I haven't read every word of the thread as it seemed to start being the same stuff over and over, but I didn't see her great misstep that would have caused such a backlash. If I missed something, do tell, but as is, I don't see what's wrong with what she's saying her position is.

 

[Apex]

Holy crap, I've been hesitant to wade back into this thread and what it's become, but...I take my chances.

I think everyone is putting words in Kathryn's mouth and concocting motivations for her.

Honestly, I think that since sex and gender are such sensitive subjects that just wanting a little heads up to what a child might be exposed to so that a parent can prepare their child or determine if their child is mature enough to understand, isn't asking much. It certainly doesn't need to be compared to discrimination or racism or the like by saying something like "exposed to those sorts of people". As if she's saying something bad. She didn't say that she would yank her kids away, she said she would just want to know the policies of who is accepted into an organization so that she could determine if and how her kids might have to be educated about possible situations or people they might come into contact with. A parent might not even think about the possibility that their daughter might come into contact with a transgender girl in Girl Scouts. It might not even cross their mind. If they knew ahead of time that it was a possibility then they would have the chance to explain what that meant to their daughter before their daughter is caught off-guard.

I haven't seen Kathryn say anything hateful or bigoted here. I've just seen her advocating for upfront information to parents about possible situations in general so that parents can sit down with their kids to prepare them or decide whether their children are mature enough to handle such situations at all.

I think a lot of word twisting and assumptions have been going on here and I don't think it necessary. To me, the thread seems to have deteriorated into a "let's gang up on Kathryn" thing for things people think she's saying instead of taking her comments at face value. Granted, I haven't read every word of the thread as it seemed to start being the same stuff over and over, but I didn't see her great misstep that would have caused such a backlash. If I missed something, do tell, but as is, I don't see what's wrong with what she's saying her position is.

This^
:clap

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Why do people feel so strongly that a little boy who likes to dress like a girl should be allowed to be in the Girl Scouts? Seriously?