6 Weeks

[tytlyf]

Religion-inspired laws have no place in America's secular system.
More Christian dominionism, they hate the Constitution and founding.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

There's nothing ethical about your point of view on this issue. Not if your point of view is about when you'd allow others to get an abortion.

It is ethical. I don't believe it's right to have an abortion but I'd never been one to force women to do so and never make a law against it if its not in the best interest of the majority of people. I've never been run to jump ship with the majority. People can disagree with me but doesn't make me less right.

"When?" I understands the justification of the baby already will die. I understand why people feel the woman shouldn't hold a pregnancy to don't let the baby live (I get their point). I just don't comfortably agree with it. If I were in the mother's position, I'd have to let someone else make the decision for me. If I were raped, for example, I'd probably wouldn't be in my right state of mind to even make a decision to have the child. However, unlike someone I talked with on another site, if I did I wouldn't call him or her my "rape baby."

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It forces women into unwanted pregnancies.

Legally, I can see that. Morally, though, it really depends on the mother. If a person was raped, I'm sure she wouldn't be in her right state of mind to decide if she wanted to have the child. Some women are grieved when they realize later they should have had their child. While others are relieved one reason or another. Neither of these mothers were forced. Legally, though, yeah. I can see why people would think the law forces rape women to have children. I get their point but not sure how they would enforce it to where that doesn't become a problem in itself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This is the hypocrisy of so many on this issue -- the insistance on the "right to life" but once the little critter is born, the absolute disregard for what the friggin heck happens to it. Gotta love the religious right -- not!

I don't understand. Once the child is born, if the mother doesn't want to take custody to raise the child (not forced to raise it) she can give it away to someone who will take care of it.

What happens to it depends on a number of factors. If the child is given to adoption parents, I hope in most cases the biological parent is involved. If giving up to the hospital, I'm sure there are protocols involved with that not just throwing the child away. It depends on her support network, mental health, and education. To many women it's most likely not giving it up and not caring what happens to their child. It's being honest and saying I can't take care of the child (as a rape victim) and I will give it to someone who can.

Depending, maybe that mother keeps in touch with the adopted parents. It's not a one-way situation.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I don't understand. Once the child is born, if the mother doesn't want to take custody to raise the child (not forced to raise it) she can give it away to someone who will take care of it.

What happens to it depends on a number of factors. If the child is given to adoption parents, I hope in most cases the biological parent is involved. If giving up to the hospital, I'm sure there are protocols involved with that not just throwing the child away. It depends on her support network, mental health, and education. To many women it's most likely not giving it up and not caring what happens to their child. It's being honest and saying I can't take care of the child (as a rape victim) and I will give it to someone who can.

Depending, maybe that mother keeps in touch with the adopted parents. It's not a one-way situation.

Do you suppose that all abandoned children are adopted? I wasn't -- I stayed a permanent ward of the Children's Aid Society until I was a teenager, and was then dumped onto the streets of Toronto with NOTHING at the ripe old age of 17.

And as an adult, I have spoken at conferences with many kids just like me, trying to help them to navigate their way forward in a world where nobody really loved them -- except social workers who earned a living caring for them.

 

[Kooky]

Legally, I can see that. Morally, though, it really depends on the mother. If a person was raped, I'm sure she wouldn't be in her right state of mind to decide if she wanted to have the child. Some women are grieved when they realize later they should have had their child. While others are relieved one reason or another. Neither of these mothers were forced. Legally, though, yeah. I can see why people would think the law forces rape women to have children. I get their point but not sure how they would enforce it to where that doesn't become a problem in itself.

As a society, we acknowledge that aggrieved or traumatized people are in a sound enough state of mind to make far-reaching decisions in many other areas of their lives without the government telling them what to do or how to live. To single out pregnancy in this way is a rather strange line of argumentation, don't you think?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As a society, we acknowledge that aggrieved or traumatized people are in a sound enough state of mind to make far-reaching decisions in many other areas of their lives without the government telling them what to do or how to live. To single out pregnancy in this way is a rather strange line of argumentation, don't you think?

How would someone who has been raped bein a sound state of mind to make any decisions objectively and rationally in spite of her traumatic experiences? I do feel it's not that simple but a lot of emotions involved before making that type of decision.

Could you rephrase the question?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't understand. Once the child is born, if the mother doesn't want to take custody to raise the child (not forced to raise it) she can give it away to someone who will take care of it.

It's the nine taxing months that take a massive toll on her mind and body, and in the case of a rape pregnancy it was forced on her against her will. If she doesn't want to carry that pregnancy it is heinous to force women like they're cattle rather than humans.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Do you suppose that all abandoned children are adopted? I wasn't -- I stayed a permanent ward of the Children's Aid Society until I was a teenager, and was then dumped onto the streets of Toronto with NOTHING at the ripe old age of 17.

And as an adult, I have spoken at conferences with many kids just like me, trying to help them to navigate their way forward in a world where nobody really loved them -- except social workers who earned a living caring for them.

Sounds personal for you. My friend was adopted overseas. She had horrible adopted parents after incidents with her biological. Her mother didn't take care of her and her biological father abused her. She told me if she had to decide to abort, she would because of her experiences. My mother aborted a child and didn't tell me why but had three children thereafter. I wonder who my sibling would have been if she had not aborted. My brother has been upset over that for near so far 20 years. It didn't affect me as much since I knew late in life and was going through medical issues.

Not all children are given to good adopted parents. Be mindful, though, not every place is the same. My friend was raised in Germany and she said everyone took care of each other as one unit. When she came to the states, that just wasn't the case. She has two kids now, but if she had an abortion I would still support her. My feelings and opinions on the issue (which she knows) doesn't override that.

If the law hopefully gives women the choice to abort, I'm all for the rights of the mother to choose. However, I can't agree with abortion so if there is ANY other way to have an healthy alternative, I'd assume most women would rather their child to have a healthy life and abortion being the last result. At least, I would hope.

 

[Kooky]

How would someone who has been raped bein a sound state of mind to make any decisions objectively and rationally in spite of her traumatic experiences? I do feel it's not that simple but a lot of emotions involved before making that type of decision.

Could you rephrase the question?

If you make any sort of contract, purchase etc. you have to be assumed to be of a reasonably sound state of mind in order for that transaction to be valid legally - and on a moral level, too, I would presume.

If we acknowledge your claim that victims of trauma are not of this reasonably sound state of mind, then that would invalidate any decision they make, not just their pregnancy; it would further require some sort of trustee relationship to cover the decisions they would have to make as part of their everyday lives, from everyday purchases to big lifechanging decisions both personal and business related.

To single out pregnancy but leave every other major life decision untouched by this argument gives it a strange and bizarre quality, as if any decision aside from carrying a child to term was of no concern to a woman's life and personhood, and of no moral or legal importance; it singles out women as morally and legally separate from men, and indeed society at large; at its worst, it has the potential to reduce a woman from a person with a full gamut of life decisions ahead of her to a baby delivery service.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's the nine taxing months that take a massive toll on her mind and body, and in the case of a rape pregnancy it was forced on her against her will. If she doesn't want to carry that pregnancy it is heinous to force women like they're cattle rather than humans.

If the law prevents women to get an abortion or someone is holding her down, I can see why its forced. Not agreeing with it doesn't mean she is forced. (EDIT)

But the best I can answer is if I were in that situation, I'd have to let someone else to make that decision for me. Many women who do have children by their rapist find they should have kept the child later on. They grieve the child they could have had. While others are relieved.

Do you think its solely because of pain and anguish some women don't want to keep their baby given the biological father's actions, or do you think maybe it has a lot to do with maybe the mother not being able to tell the child his or her father raped her?

I think there's a lot of mental health issues involved not just carrying the baby. But how would one know if rape victims are making abortion decisions based on emotions (which could mean she may change her mind later when her trauma starts to subside) or sound reasoning?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I think there's a lot of mental health issues involved not just carrying the baby. But how would one know if rape victims are making abortion decisions based on emotions (which could mean she may change her mind later when her trauma starts to subside) or sound reasoning?

The same can be asked of many medical procedures. Medically transitioning, for example, is a medical treatment with a long line of detractors (very often, typically, and frequently the same ones in favor of excessively and dangerously restrictive abortion bans) who swear it's not made on sound logic but misguided emotional desires. Hysterectomy is another one.
And, on the flip side, we can ask the same when treatment is declined.
But these questions are not for us. It is not our place. It is between a patient and her healthcare providers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If we acknowledge your claim that victims of trauma are not of this reasonably sound state of mind, then that would invalidate any decision they make, not just their pregnancy; it would further require some sort of trustee relationship to cover the decisions they would have to make as part of their everyday lives, from everyday purchases to big lifechanging decisions both personal and business related.

True. It would depend on mental health of the woman. Though, any traumatic situation would have some affect in people's decisions. One emotional-based decision would be "why would I want to have my rapists' baby" type of thing. So, it's assuming that the biological father will a. remind her of the rape and rapist and b. she'd probably feel she has to live with the PTSD because she is around her child. It's an emotional justification. I think many people can understand her point of view. Objectively? Maybe when she's a bit better she'd have a more handle in those decisions about her body, her child, and her health.

To single out pregnancy but leave every other major life decision untouched by this argument gives it a strange and bizarre quality, as if any decision aside from carrying a child to term was of no concern to a woman's life and personhood, and of no moral or legal importance; it singles out women as morally and legally separate from men, and indeed society at large; at its worst, it has the potential to reduce a woman from a person with a full gamut of life decisions ahead of her to a baby delivery service.

I don't think so. Trauma in general affects people's major life decisions. My brother is homeless because of childhood trauma but if he didn't have it, I'd assume he'd have a better handle on COVID, his job, and such cause he's a very smart fellow. Just his mental health needs to be attended to. Traumatic situations can cause a lot and when you have a last minute decision such as abortion, it doesn't quite help the problem given the time restraint.

I can see that emphasizing women as only concerned with childbearing and having no other major life decisions as men do (if I read that right). But trauma does affect all life decisions. Abortion is pretty big given it has to do with the life of a child (finances as well as general health decisions like ending one's life to not deal with pain from a terminal illness). It does affect both parties.

Do you feel women are aborting as the first resort to their problem?

The way many make it seem is as if women just all of the sudden say "I've been raped. Abort! Get it done with." I'm sure women (at least most?) who have gone through that doesn't make that decision on their own morals but out of what they feel as a necessity (assuming they abort not because of the child's father).

 

[The Hammer]

It suddenly occurs to me that if we accept the claim that a fetus or embryo is a person, abortion could be justified under Texas's "stand your ground" law at any stage of pregnancy.

I'd love to hear this.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'd love to hear this.

Texas's "stand your ground" laws allow the use of deadly force in self-defense or in the defense of a third person in the case of sexual assault.

Texas's laws around sexual assault give several scenarios that constitute sexual assault that involve contact between a person and the "sexual organ" of the victim without the victim's consent. I would argue that the "sexual organ" of a person with a uterus includes the uterus.

 

[The Hammer]

Texas's "stand your ground" laws allow the use of deadly force in self-defense or in the defense of a third person in the case of sexual assault.

Texas's laws around sexual assault give several scenarios that constitute sexual assault that involve contact between a person and the "sexual organ" of the victim without the victim's consent. I would argue that the "sexual organ" of a person with a uterus includes the uterus.

Interesting logic

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Interesting logic

Well, it's Texas.

It's like the old joke: "I'll believe corporations are people when Texas executes one."

 

[Wandering Monk]

The Governor Of Texas Has Signed A Law That Bans Abortion As Early As 6 Weeks

"Most people don't even know if they are pregnant at six weeks... WTF." (My wife)

"The Texas law effectively prohibits any abortion after around six weeks of pregnancy, before many women are even aware that they are pregnant.

The bill, which takes effect in September, makes no exception for pregnancies that are the result of rape or incest but does include a rare provision that allows individual citizens to sue anyone they believe may have been involved in helping a pregnant individual violate the ban. The provision cannot be used against pregnant people, but reproductive rights advocates warn it can be used to target abortion providers and abortion-rights activists."

Seems like a solution waiting for a problem:

 

[tytlyf]

Seems like a solution waiting for a problem:

View attachment 50789

I bet if you ask them about undocumented immigration at our borders, they'll say it's the highest in history. Until you show them a chart. They don't see many charts.

 

[oldbadger]

This is the hypocrisy of so many on this issue -- the insistance on the "right to life" but once the little critter is born, the absolute disregard for what the friggin heck happens to it. Gotta love the religious right -- not!

Bingo!
Ask most hot pro lifers about full community provision for all minors from education up to adulthood, full Medicare, any subsistence necessary etc and they either disappear or reply with an aggressive negative.
As for expecting the victim of a rape to carry resulting offspring to birth, even bringing up such s child as a daybyday reminder of that traumatic event, this shows beyond doubt that such extremists are totally careless about women in general, and borne children in particular.
And it amazes me how many of these are claiming to be Christians!