150 rockets fired at Israel after IDF assassinates Gaza terror leader

[Cooky]

So, because they are progressive in one particular area, that means they can't commit war crimes or commit atrocities against neighbouring nations?

Is that what you want to argue?

You seem to like fallacies. That's a faulty comparison.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You seem to like fallacies. That's a faulty comparison.

But it's an accurate representation of your argument.

 

[Cooky]

But it's an accurate representation of your argument.

Okay, great. Let's check to see if you're creating a strawman... So.. Where did I say that exactly?

 

[Cooky]

I'm sure everyone can see how intellectual dishonesty has come into play here. And with @Lyndon's "bottle rockets"..?

...Now I can understand mistakes. But blatant lies are the cheapest of all fallacies. I won't continue to participate at that low level.

 

[Cooky]

I have a friend in Israel, and believe me the government is bad!!

This is also a very intellectually low level response.

...If this is what I'm up against, then I don't need to waste my time here. I could just go debate a first grader.

 

[columbus]

If you don't like it, or think that the systematic attempt to remove a race/nationality/religion of people from earth isn't genocide, take it up with the UN.

If you prefer, I can use the term "human rights abuses for the purposes of the removal, denigration and dehumanization of a particular group"?

I find this ridiculous.
History is full of episodes of real genocide. From South Sudan to Native Americans to some Chinese policies to Rwanda to the Holocaust....
The list is pretty long.

Referring to Israeli efforts to protect themselves from hostile neighbors as genocide is ridiculous. There's plenty of blame to spread around here. But I know it's the Muslim neighbors of Israel who have declared the intention of genocide.
Tom

 

[Flankerl]

Practically any organization (or even individual) who says anything negative about Israel is accused of anti-Israel bias.

Case in point: your accusations in this thread.

No. It commits genocide against Palestinians.

Re-read the definition of genocide I provided.

"denial of service and travel restrictions fits the legal definition of genocide according to the UN."

Jews aren't allowed to travel into Area A.
That's a travel restriction.

I am so sorry.

I'm sorry you find it insulting to be asked for sources for your claims.

Perhaps you imagine your position is unassailable and that nobody would ever want to know more about something you've alluded to. But, no, you're right. You're above all that. I mean, it's not like you're desperately seeking offense to justify the baseless accusations you've made against posters on these forums.

I have no interest in discrediting anything. I just want more information.

Your insinuations are unnecessary and childish.

You write about the conflict and don't even know about the plight of the Sephardim and Mizrahim.
Which tells me that you know about the Palestinian side of the story and little else.

Nope. I used the UN's definition of genocide.

If you don't like it, or think that the systematic attempt to remove a race/nationality/religion of people from earth isn't genocide, take it up with the UN.

If you prefer, I can use the term "human rights abuses for the purposes of the removal, denigration and dehumanization of a particular group"?

1997 there were 2.783.084 Palestinians in the Palestinian territories.
2017 there were 4.952.168.

Perhaps the evil Zionists need to take a genocide workshop because it's clearly not working.

"People like me"?

You don't even know me. Get down off your horse.

You defend baseless accusations and ignore obvious hypocrisy.
Pretty much what all the NGOs are known for in Israel. So yeah I know enough.

When have I ever said that they never needed evidence? Where is the hypocrisy? Where have I defended AI beyond giving them the benefit of the doubt that it may not have been a deliberate lie rather than a case of misinformation?

Why do not even acknowledge that possibility?

They could have, but if the source they had told them it was Israel, why would they do that?

For reasons that you don't know yet. Stop whining.

Ah so someone told them and they immediately believed this person or group.
Now that there is contrary actual evidence they don't immediately believe the evidence but argue for an investigation.

Yeah I wonder where the hypocrisy is.

Because, as we all known, Israel has no allies anywhere who will defend it against any and all criticism and their entire government will collapse from a single tweet...

....

... Or maybe you're just being ridiculous.

"What is propaganda and lies and how are they used in conflicts"-the post.

 

[columbus]

1997 there were 2.783.084 Palestinians in the Palestinian territories.
2017 there were 4.952.168.

I do see plenty of blame to spread around in this ugly violent conflict.

But these numbers, easily available to anyone who cares, totally blows the genocide accusations out of the water.
Tom

 

[Shad]

I do see plenty of blame to spread around in this ugly violent conflict.

But these numbers, easily available to anyone who cares, totally blows the genocide accusations out of the water.
Tom

More so you can see clear application bias. After WW2 millions of Germans were displaced, thousands were killed all for just being German in east Europe. They were not Nazis, they were not SS, they were in those areas for generations. The UN isn't call that genocide. The UN isn't demanding Poland return the chunk of east Germany Russia carved out.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Okay, great. Let's check to see if you're creating a strawman... So.. Where did I say that exactly?

I didn't say you said it. I said it was an accurate representation OF your argument. I.E it's what you argument boiled down to: that we can ignore any atrocities committed by a Nation if they are progressive in one particular area.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I find this ridiculous.
History is full of episodes of real genocide. From South Sudan to Native Americans to some Chinese policies to Rwanda to the Holocaust....
The list is pretty long.

Referring to Israeli efforts to protect themselves from hostile neighbors as genocide is ridiculous.

That's not what I did, nor did I ever say that.

Re-read my previous posts and the list of atrocities and human rights abuses the Israeli government has carried out against the Palestinian population.

There's plenty of blame to spread around here. But I know it's the Muslim neighbors of Israel who have declared the intention of genocide.

Doesn't mean the Israeli government isn't carrying it out by definition. You can't simply excuse Israel's history of human rights abuses and war crimes.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

"denial of service and travel restrictions fits the legal definition of genocide according to the UN."

Jews aren't allowed to travel into Area A.
That's a travel restriction.

I am so sorry.

Oh look! A blatant lie!

Here's what I actually said, emphasis mine:

"Genocide is the attempted destruction, in whole or in part, of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group through, among other things, direct harm against members of that group, the removal of rights from that group, deliberately inflicting difficult living conditions upon that group or imposing restrictions intended to make living more difficult for that group.

"A government targeting a specific ethnic/religious/national group for removal of rights, eviction, denial of service and travel restrictions fits the legal definition of genocide according to the UN."
POST: 150 rockets fired at Israel after IDF assassinates Gaza terror leader

You just dishonestly misrepresented what I wrote. Apologize.

You write about the conflict and don't even know about the plight of the Sephardim and Mizrahim.
Which tells me that you know about the Palestinian side of the story and little else.

Or it could mean I'm only generally aware of the conflict and have spent time in this thread specifically responding to the claim that Israel never committed any similar attacks against Palestine. If the claim had been the other way around, I would have researched Palestinian atrocities and mentioned them.

Again, a person doesn't have to decry every atrocity ever committed to decry the atrocities committed by a specific group.

1997 there were 2.783.084 Palestinians in the Palestinian territories.
2017 there were 4.952.168.

Perhaps the evil Zionists need to take a genocide workshop because it's clearly not working.

So, was the holocaust not a genocide because there are more Jewish people now than at the end of WW2?

Is that the argument you want to make?

You understand that enacting genocide against a group doesn't mean that group doesn't survive in other territories?

You defend baseless accusations and ignore obvious hypocrisy.

Such as...?

Pretty much what all the NGOs are known for in Israel. So yeah I know enough.

You know nothing. Stop pretending. You've already lied about me once in this post.

Ah so someone told them and they immediately believed this person or group.

You have no idea who told them or where they got the information from. You have no reason to believe they wouldn't believe them.

If they just jumped to a conclusion, then they were irresponsible, biased and deserve scorn. But you don't know that yet. You have no idea what the early reports were and you have no idea what their sources were.

What you are doing now is actually a perfect example of what you are accusing them of doing: jumping to an unfounded conclusion about their intentions in order to fit your personal narrative. Stop it.

If you really want to be better than them, wait for more information to come out and take the necessary position once we know what has actually occurred. Because, apparently, that's what they didn't do.

Now that there is contrary actual evidence they don't immediately believe the evidence but argue for an investigation.

Yeah I wonder where the hypocrisy is.

Most likely an attempt to save face, but I would agree they should be quicker to retract the statement and make the truth clear.

"What is propaganda and lies and how are they used in conflicts"-the post.

Hey, you're the one who thinks a Tweet poses a serious diplomatic threat to Palestine and thus wish to twist the arm of the global humanitarian organization who put the Tweet out because you want to silence them.

 

[Shad]

Oh look! A blatant lie!

Here's what I actually said, emphasis mine:

"Genocide is the attempted destruction, in whole or in part, of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group through, among other things, direct harm against members of that group, the removal of rights from that group, deliberately inflicting difficult living conditions upon that group or imposing restrictions intended to make living more difficult for that group.

"A government targeting a specific ethnic/religious/national group for removal of rights, eviction, denial of service and travel restrictions fits the legal definition of genocide according to the UN."
POST: 150 rockets fired at Israel after IDF assassinates Gaza terror leader

.

There was no such thing as a Palestinian at this time.

 

[rosends]

From what I'm reading (I haven't confirmed this), there was a 41 minute cease fire. Once a cease fire is agreed to, the parties involved should stop firing. The reports I am getting indicate that one side fired again at 6:11AM (local time).

 

[ImmortalFlame]

From what I'm reading (I haven't confirmed this), there was a 41 minute cease fire. Once a cease fire is agreed to, the parties involved should stop firing. The reports I am getting indicate that one side fired again at 6:11AM (local time).

Source from the BBC:
Rockets shot at Israel after Gaza ceasefire starts

Appears the rockets came from Gaza:
"However, five rockets were launched from Gaza hours after the ceasefire came into effect, the IDF said. Two were intercepted by the Iron Dome air defence system."

 

[Flankerl]

You just dishonestly misrepresented what I wrote. Apologize.

A government: Israel
targeting a specific ethnic/religious/national group: Israelis
for removal of rights: Travelling is a right, at least pro-Palestinians always act as if Palestinians should leave and enter Israel at will
eviction: Can't get evicted from Area A if you aren't even allowed to enter it *tips forehead*
denial of service: Hadn't seen that before, which services are Palestinians denied? They even use Israeli hospitals and Government programs
travel restrictions: Oh look it's Area A again

Or it could mean I'm only generally aware of the conflict and have spent time in this thread specifically responding to the claim that Israel never committed any similar attacks against Palestine. If the claim had been the other way around, I would have researched Palestinian atrocities and mentioned them.

Again, a person doesn't have to decry every atrocity ever committed to decry the atrocities committed by a specific group.

Of course you would've done that. I am sure of it.

So, was the holocaust not a genocide because there are more Jewish people now than at the end of WW2?

Is that the argument you want to make?

You understand that enacting genocide against a group doesn't mean that group doesn't survive in other territories?

There aren't even more Jews today than there were 1938 let alone 1945.


And it doesn't matter how far we go back the numbers simply don't add up.

1970: 1,03m
1980: 1,36m
1990: 1,9m
2000: 3,05-3,11m
2010: 4-4,12m
2014: 4,5m
2017: 4,9m

The Palestinian Authority only started to collect these statistics in 1997. So the numbers I first gave you in the other post were from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.
Are they lying to make the Zionist Genocide look less efficient than it is?
The lowest growth rate between 1997 and 2017 was +2,76%, which is pretty much the same for Egypt or Jordan.

Such as...?

The entire tweet crap. I of course realise that you will never realise why their behaviour was hypocritical. So give it a rest.

You know nothing. Stop pretending. You've already lied about me once in this post.

So you think that your opinions would be valued in Israel? I mean are you sure about that?
And that Israelis don't trust NGOs is an old story. You should probably read up on it.

You have no idea who told them or where they got the information from. You have no reason to believe they wouldn't believe them.

If they just jumped to a conclusion, then they were irresponsible, biased and deserve scorn. But you don't know that yet. You have no idea what the early reports were and you have no idea what their sources were.

What you are doing now is actually a perfect example of what you are accusing them of doing: jumping to an unfounded conclusion about their intentions in order to fit your personal narrative. Stop it.

If you really want to be better than them, wait for more information to come out and take the necessary position once we know what has actually occurred. Because, apparently, that's what they didn't do.

Okay I get it.
Jumping to conclusions to smear Israel: Okay
Accusing a terror group by using video evidence: Not okay

I mean that surely makes a lot of sense.
But perhaps the vile J-Zionists infiltrated Islamic Jihad and launched the rocket to that building.
It all makes sense now. Thanks

Most likely an attempt to save face, but I would agree they should be quicker to retract the statement and make the truth clear.

They won't. It simply won't happen.
How do I know this? It's the modus operandi.

Hey, you're the one who thinks a Tweet poses a serious diplomatic threat to Palestine and thus wish to twist the arm of the global humanitarian organization who put the Tweet out because you want to silence them.

I don't really know what I should say to this. You apparently think that blatant lies have no place in propaganda.
Well that's good for you I guess.

And why Palestine? The country in question is called Israel.
You act as if AI is interested in actually finding out who did it.
Which is of course a very tough investigation. It will take at least a few months, if it happens at all, and then lead to a single line at the bottom of another article or tweet.

Mission accomplished.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

A government: Israel
targeting a specific ethnic/religious/national group: Israelis
for removal of rights: Travelling is a right, at least pro-Palestinians always act as if Palestinians should leave and enter Israel at will
eviction: Can't get evicted from Area A if you aren't even allowed to enter it *tips forehead*
denial of service: Hadn't seen that before, which services are Palestinians denied? They even use Israeli hospitals and Government programs
travel restrictions: Oh look it's Area A again

Now you're just being obtuse, and I refuse to play your game.

You claimed that I wrote genocide was just "restricting the movement of people and denying them service".]

That was a lie. I have proven it was a lie.

Apologize.

There aren't even more Jews today than there were 1938 let alone 1945.

Estimated total number of Jews in 1945: 11 million.
Estimated total number of Jews today: 13.3 million.
SOURCE: World Jewish Population | Latest Statistics

My point is that just looking at population numbers tells you nothing about atrocities committed against that group and efforts to enact genocide on them. The actions of the Israeli government come under the UN definition of genocide.

I'm sorry you don't like that, but it is the truth. The Palestinian people have been targeted by the Israeli government for numerous human rights abuses in an effort to eliminate them as a group.

And it doesn't matter how far we go back the numbers simply don't add up.

1970: 1,03m
1980: 1,36m
1990: 1,9m
2000: 3,05-3,11m
2010: 4-4,12m
2014: 4,5m
2017: 4,9m

The Palestinian Authority only started to collect these statistics in 1997. So the numbers I first gave you in the other post were from the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics.
Are they lying to make the Zionist Genocide look less efficient than it is?
The lowest growth rate between 1997 and 2017 was +2,76%, which is pretty much the same for Egypt or Jordan.

Once again, genocide doesn't have to be successful for it to be genocide. Are you not getting this point yet?

The entire tweet crap. I of course realise that you will never realise why their behaviour was hypocritical. So give it a rest.

You have yet to explain why it's hypocritical. You've said it was dishonest and biased, which it could be. But in what way is it hypocritical, specifically?

So you think that your opinions would be valued in Israel? I mean are you sure about that?
And that Israelis don't trust NGOs is an old story. You should probably read up on it.

You're talking garbled nonsense.

Okay I get it.
Jumping to conclusions to smear Israel: Okay

Nope. I never said that. In fact, I explicitly said that wasn't okay:

"If they just jumped to a conclusion, then they were irresponsible, biased and deserve scorn."

Accusing a terror group by using video evidence: Not okay

Also a lie. I never said that, nor would I ever.

I mean that surely makes a lot of sense.
But perhaps the vile J-Zionists infiltrated Islamic Jihad and launched the rocket to that building.
It all makes sense now. Thanks

Can you stop arguing with the voices in your head long enough to read my actual posts?

They won't. It simply won't happen.

We'll see. I don't see the value in jumping to conclusions in order to smear people.

Apparently, you do.

I don't really know what I should say to this. You apparently think that blatant lies have no place in propaganda.
Well that's good for you I guess.

You seem to like jumping to conclusions that make you feel morally validated over other people.

Quick tip: argue the points being made. Your entire argument at this stage basically consists of strawmen.

And why Palestine? The country in question is called Israel.
You act as if AI is interested in actually finding out who did it.
Which is of course a very tough investigation. It will take at least a few months, if it happens at all, and then lead to a single line at the bottom of another article or tweet.

Mission accomplished.

You're just engaged in mindless conspiracy mongering. One Tweet that was subsequently walked back on (admittedly, too lightly and not quickly enough) does no indicate that an entire organization is a propaganda machine.

Case in point: the blatant lies you have told about me and my position. Were they honest mistakes or are you a propagandist, just as you allege AI as being? Perhaps you would jump to the conclusion that any incorrect statement is a deliberate lie if it's something you engage in a lot. We say we see the world as reflection of ourselves, I suppose.

 

[columbus]

Estimated total number of Jews in 1945: 11 million.
Estimated total number of Jews today: 13.3 million.
SOURCE: World Jewish Population | Latest Statistics

My point is that just looking at population numbers tells you nothing about atrocities committed against that group and efforts to enact genocide on them. The actions of the Israeli government come under the UN definition of genocide.

You seem to have missed this sentence in your link.
"In 1939, there were 17 million Jews in the world, and by 1945 only 11 million."
That was Flankerl's point. Over a third of the Jewish population died off during a genocide. As opposed to the Palestinian population, growing faster than the world population as a whole. That's not a genocide, any more than The Allies committed genocide against the Germans and Japanese towards the end of WWII.
Tom

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You seem to have missed this sentence in your link.
"In 1939, there were 17 million Jews in the world, and by 1945 only 11 million."
That was Flankerl's point. Over a third of the Jewish population died off during a genocide. As opposed to the Palestinian population, growing faster than the world population as a whole. That's not a genocide, any more than The Allies committed genocide against the Germans and Japanese towards the end of WWII.
Tom

But that's missing my point.

Global population numbers DO NOT indicate that a particular government or organization isn't enacting genocide. Do you not acknowledge that it is possible for a country to carry out an effort to remove a particular group or population, but for the total number of that population worldwide to still increase?

Do you not understand that?

Also, you earlier accused me of calling Israeli efforts to defend themselves "genocide". This is not something I ever did. Could you please acknowledge that?

 

[Notanumber]

I don't understand why the Palestinians think it's okay to shoot 150 rockets onto Israeli civilians for one dead terrorist leader... How ridiculous. Does anyone disagree..?

150 rockets fired at Israel after IDF assassinates Gaza terror leader

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