14 year-old girl wears rosary beads to school. Guess what happens

[gnomon]

If the school had the rule then it is their rule to enforce.

If they warned her and she refused to remove the rosary beads she can only blame herself for being suspended.

That being said did the enforcement of the rule have to be a suspension? And on top of that I find this particular rule rather lame. As far as respecting religious beliefs I think the case in some districts is that discretion of what qualifies is left solely up to the school board. In other words, just because someone claims a religious exemption to a rule doesn't necessarily mean the rules or even the law is on their side.

But, then again, I think the specific rule is unnecessary and was probably instituted as an overreaction to some other incident in the past.

 

[Bismillah]

"On the other hand, the Court has repeatedly emphasized the need for affirming the comprehensive authority of the States and of school officials, consistent with fundamental constitutional safeguards, to prescribe and control conduct in the schools."

- Tinker vs. Des Moines

For the time being, I'm taking the school's word for it when they say it is, but does it matter from your perspective? I got the impression that because her motivation wasn't gang-related, she should have the right to wear it, period.

And they can only interfere when such things cause a disruption...Why take the school's word for it? It is obvious that something is a gang symbol when violence becomes its predominant affiliation.

This is true with bandannas, not so much with rosaries.

Furthermore some have posted some pictures of tattoos to support the school's decision, which are irrelevant...

Half of them sport the cross, is it too now a gang symbol?

I would probably be inclined to agree. However, if I was to support a prohibition on this symbol as well, then I don't see how my position would be in conflict.

Never mind, I had assumed that many schools allowed the bulldog as it turns out they don't.

"No one" in this thread, or "no one", period? If the former, I don't see how it's relevant; if the latter, I'd say this is a positive claim that you have the burden of proof in defending.

I'd say people making the claim that it is associated with gangs would have to prove it.

Regardless, the rosary is most closely associated with the Roman Catholic Church with pictures such as the Pope grasping his rosary and nuns sporting them as well.

In popular culture many many celebrities have worn them as jewelry and it has become a source of fashion.

These are the two held views of rosaries and I don't think there are any other major connotations and certainly not any that associate it with gangs.

It holds a position as a cultural norm as something to hold while praying. Not as jewelry.

But it does

Actually, from what I understand, many Catholics dislike the idea of people wearing the rosary as jewelry.

Catholics dislike many things that the rest of the world doesn't deign to care about.

 

[iholdit]

Virtually every color is associated with a gang. Black,white,red,blue,yellow/gold,purple etc. Are the schools going to stop kids from wearing any color clothes to school? At this point they will have to go to school naked. If the kids get smart they will start a text book gang, where the gang menbers carry around school text books. Then the school will have to ban all textbooks. They might as well shut the school down at that point.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why take the school's word for it? It is obvious that something is a gang symbol when violence becomes its predominant affiliation.

Because gang symbols are a local issue. I googled "Fresno Bulldog" after you mentioned it and saw the gang-related articles and images. Until then, I'd never heard of the Fresno Bulldogs... either the gang or the college team.

This is true with bandannas, not so much with rosaries.

It's probably moreso with bandanas, but that doesn't mean there's no issue with rosaries.

A quick Google search yielded this from the San Antonio PD guide to gangs in schools:

The use of colored rosary beads and other religious articles have also

been noted. These are subtle indicators of gang membership and are
often hard to notice if you are not looking for them. With the
introduction of strict dress codes and the use of uniforms in the school​

systems these type of indicators seem to be favored by the gangsters.

Furthermore some have posted some pictures of tattoos to support the school's decision, which are irrelevant...

If they're irrelevant, why do you keep bringing them up? They aren't support for a ban on physical rosaries, but they also don't suggest that such a ban is unwarranted.

Half of them sport the cross is it too now a gang symbol?

If it's being used by gang members to advertise their membership in the gang, then some crosses may very well be gang symbols. However, wearing crosses is so commonplace that I don't think that it would be reasonable to say that each and every instance should necessarily be banned... if the problem is even of a magnitude where banning some form of the cross is appropriate.

I'd say people making the claim that it is associated with gangs would have to prove it.

I think "prove" may be too strong a word, but I think they have to demonstrate that the ban is reasonable. However, it seems to me that the school has probably done this... at least to the satisfaction of the school board.

Regardless, the rosary is most closely associated with the Roman Catholic Church with pictures such as the Pope grasping his rosary and nuns sporting them as well.

Yes, big rosaries are associated with religious orders. This doesn't suggest that they're a "cultural norm" for lay Catholics than it suggests that lay Catholics normally get tonsured.

In popular culture many many celebrities have worn them as jewelry and it has become a source of fashion.

And if that's the case, deal with them as fashion. If we're considering them as a fashion accessory rather than a religious item, then it's just as appropriate to ban them as it is to ban Wheelie sneakers, which many schools have done.

These are the two held views of rosaries and I don't think there are any other major connotations and certainly not any that associate it with gangs.

I tried a quick experiment: I Googled "rosary symbol" to see what pops up. Here are how the results for the first page describe the rosary:

- prayer item
- prayer item
- fashion
- gang symbol
- prayer item
- gang symbol
- gang symbol
- gang symbol
- "evil symbol on rosary" (don't know what to make of that one)
- fashion

But it does

If it was a cultural norm to wear the rosary as jewelry, then I think I'd hear a lot fewer "my friend wears the rosary as a necklace; is this sacriligeous?"-type calls when I listen to Catholic call-in radio shows.

Catholics dislike many things that the rest of the world doesn't deign to care about.

But if a religious item is disconnected from its religion, then why would this even be considered an issue of "religious expression"?

And if it isn't disconnected from its religion, then shouldn't the religious context of the item be taken into consideration in our assessment of the situation?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Virtually every color is associated with a gang. Black,white,red,blue,yellow/gold,purple etc. Are the schools going to stop kids from wearing any color clothes to school?

Every colour?

At my high school, wearing coloured laces on your Doc Martens would probably get you into trouble. But black laces were considered "neutral" and acceptable.

At this point they will have to go to school naked.

Or they'll be made to wear uniforms, which many schools have done. Regardless of the colours or whatnot that the local gang has decided are "theirs", the whole point of gang colours and symbols is to differentiate members of a gang from everyone else. Getting all the kids to wear one colour solves the issue of gang colours: even if you've picked a colour that "belongs" to one of the local gangs, the fact that everyone's wearing it stops it from being a "gang" colour.

If the kids get smart they will start a text book gang, where the gang menbers carry around school text books. Then the school will have to ban all textbooks. They might as well shut the school down at that point.

Either that or give all the kids in a grade the exact same textbooks so people's textbooks won't be differentiated by gang affiliation. Oh, wait - that's what happens already.

 

[McBell]

Based on the limited information in the article I feel the need to point out a few things:

• The rosary is not "banned" from the school. It is not to be worn openly
• The girl flat out states that she is wearing it as a reminder of her grandmother, NOT as an expression of her religion. There goes any "freedom of religious expression" argument.
• The school official who stated that she must take it off or be suspended was not following the school policy. The girl could have put it under her shirt.
• Seems that the girl, nor the parent read the student handbook...(and I would also argue that the mentioned school official didn't either)

 

[Bismillah]

Because gang symbols are a local issue. I googled "Fresno Bulldog" after you mentioned it and saw the gang-related articles and images. Until then, I'd never heard of the Fresno Bulldogs... either the gang or the college team.

No the Fresno is local...the use of religious symbolism evoked by gangs is nationwide.

I tried a quick experiment: I Googled "rosary symbol" to see what pops up. Here are how the results for the first page describe the rosary:

odd...I did and the majority were associated with Christian sites with the occasional link to this story. And if that's what you mean by "gang symbol" that is pretty disingenuous.

A quick Google search yielded this from the San Antonio PD guide to gangs in schools:

Look at the rosary they have on image and you tell me that is representative of generic rosaries...

They spend the majority of time talking about beads.

If it was a cultural norm to wear the rosary as jewelry, then I think I'd hear a lot fewer "my friend wears the rosary as a necklace; is this sacriligeous?"-type calls when I listen to Catholic call-in radio shows.

I'm not sure where you are going. Many prominent celebrities have worn rosaries as a fashion item and they are prevalent in malls. So...

But if a religious item is disconnected from its religion, then why would this even be considered an issue of "religious expression"?

It's not simply disconnected from its religion. If the majority of people associate a rosary with fashion you would have a point, I just stated that it is associated either with religion or fashion.

And if it isn't disconnected from its religion, then shouldn't the religious context of the item be taken into consideration in our assessment of the situation?

Obviously not, you've seen yourself how Catholics protest to to the use of rosaries.

Also you haven't answer my question.

Is a cross a gang symbol?

 

[McBell]

Is a cross a gang symbol?

Yes.
But then, I consider the KKK a gang.

OASN
the cross is used to symbolize all manner of stuff:

Cross - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
​

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

• The girl flat out states that she is wearing it as a reminder of her grandmother, NOT as an expression of her religion. There goes any "freedom of religious expression" argument.

I normally carry a Swiss Army Knife in my pocket. It's a reminder of my late father - he gave it to me when I started Scouts.

I also volunteer at an elementary school. They have a "no weapons" policy that bans knives.

When I'm at the school, I leave my knife in the car.

Also you haven't answer my question.

Is a cross a gang symbol?

I haven't heard of a gang that actually uses it as a symbol, but I suppose it could be used that way.

However, as I touched on in my reply to iholdit, a gang symbol only has value if it can be used to differentiate gang members from non-members. I don't think that the cross in general could ever do this, simply because it's so widely used. Not unless you're talking about somewhere like Northern Ireland or the like, where whether your cross has a human figure on it or not could be seen as an indication of whether you're Catholic or Protestant.

If, say, a particular colour or style of cross was used as a gang symbol, I could certainly see banning that. Not all crosses, though, because they're just so widely used.

However, rosaries are much less widespread, so I don't think the issues are the same as with crosses.

 

[iholdit]

Penguin, if the uniform is red for example and there is a rival between a gang with red colors and blue colors it is probably going to start problems between the gangs. For example here is a scenario. Red gangmember says to blue gangmember "you are wearing my colors". Blue gangmember says "f your colors". Red gangmember and blue gangmember get into a fight. I dont see how uniforms help here.
If the kids were smart they would start a gang that uses the same textbooks that the school uses. The rules are ridiculous and i dont see how they will stop gang violence by any of it. If gang members want to fight they will whether they are advertising their gang signs,colors etc. or not.

 

[Rakhel]

Gang Clothing

It should be noted that gang members often wear clothing that is currently popular amongst
juveniles in general. The wearing of the clothing that is described in this section does not
automatically make that person a gang member. However, a combination of the clothing worn,
along with a certain color scheme or the manner in which the clothing is worn can indicate
membership in a gang. As gang members find out what clothing is becoming too noticeable to
people, they may change what they wear. What is fashionable today, may not be tomorrow and
gang members like to be fashionable. The following are examples of gang clothing.
GANG AWARENESS
The individual pictured has several examples of common gang
clothing. Starting from the top, he is wearing a blue colored
handkerchief on his head. These are often referred to as “rags”
and come in many different colors. Gangs often adapt a color that
they will identify with. Many other gangs may use the same color
rag and often time alliances between different gangs can be
recognized by the use of the same color rag.
He is also wearing a blue rag around his neck and a blue t-shirt
following the same color scheme. His pants are hanging low
which is known as “sagging” and he is wearing blue boxer shorts.
He is also throwing handsigns which will be discussed later. The
pants he is wearing are Dickie work pants which are popular
amongst the gang culture. They come in different colors, with tan
usually being a neutral color being worn by many different gangs.
The use of colored beads is also popular with gang members. The
color of the bead is dependent on the color the gang has adopted for
their gang. The bead can be made into a necklace as illustrated or
worn in the shoelaces, made into a key chain, worn in braids in their
hair and used in other fashions. Colored rubberbands worn in hair
braids or around their wrist can also be indicators of gang membership.
The use of colored rosary beads and other religious articles have also
been noted. These are subtle indicators of gang membership and are
often hard to notice if you are not looking for them. With the
introduction of strict dress codes and the use of uniforms in the school
systems these type of indicators seem to be favored by the gangsters.
The use of colored shoe laces is also common. The type of tennis
shoes worn can also indicate gang membership. Some the popular
styles worn are British Knights tennis shoes because of the initials BK
which stand for Blood Killer. Columbia Knights tennis shoes are also
popular and stand for Crip Killers. The old style Nike tennis shoes are
in demand and are often referred to as G-Nikes. The old style
Converse canvas tennis shoes (Chuck Taylors) are also in demand.
The five pointed star used on the Converse is the same as a gang
symbol used by many gangs nationwide. Steel toe boots are also used,
mainly with skinhead gangs. A popular style boot used by the
skinheads and other gangs are the Dr. Marten brand.
©San Antonio Police Department
San Antonio Texas
5
GANG AWARENESS
Customized T-shirts and baseball caps are also popular amongst
gangsters. Most often the name or initials of the gang will be used
along with any symbols used by the gang in their graffiti. Often times
gang members will write gang graffiti on their clothing, shoes, baseball
caps, on their wallets or other articles of clothing. Many times a gang
will adopt a popular sports team’s style of apparel, especially if the
colors of that team is the same as their gang color or the team logo has
some significant meaning to the gang.

www.sanantonio.gov/sapd/pdf/Awareness.pdf

 

[Madhuri]

The way I see it, given that

A) The rosary is associated with gang activity.

B) The school board evidently finds gang membership and signs of it disruptive in schools.

C) To eliminate such disruption it has seen fit to establish a dress code that forbids the display of gang signs in any form, including the rosary.

D) The school advised parents and students of this code.
​

therefore, in displaying the rosary the girl was in violation of the code. That she was given the opportunity of either removing it or be suspended and chose the latter, her suspension was her own undoing. Hopefully, it'll be a good lesson.

I agree, although I think that suspension is going too far. They could have just contacted the parents to inform them, instead of making a young ignorant girl make an emotional decision.

I do also think that banning kids from wearing rosary beads is ridiculous.

 

[ninerbuff]

But a lot of people are going to invoke their religious rights. Its odd though that a religious piece is associated with gangs.

One thing though, isnt the first thing you think of when you see a rosary, Oh, she is a christian. Not Oh, she is a gang member?

I mean, to assume that everyone who wears a rosary is involved with a gang is kind of...insane...

Well if they were an adult then it's much easier to assume they aren't gang members. But teens.............different story.

 

[ninerbuff]

This is stupid adult supervision, IMO.

Not if you have to deal with gangs at school.

 

[Skwim]

Whether students associate something with a gang is highly relevant, as it is the cause of disruption...

Agreed.

And yet you miss that the major symbols of a rosary are the pope clutching his rosary, nuns praying, and celebrities draping it around their necks

Irrelevant.

Really? Where because I didn't see that as listed. All I saw is that the rosary is a possible gang symbol.

The rosary has become a source of potential harm because it is recognized as a gang symbol, and as such may result in disruption in schools; disruption being harmful.

Only when acknowledged. When it is accepted that the rosary is a gang symbol and not a religious object or a cultural statement I'll agree with you.

And why can't it be both? You must realize that many things convey more than a single meaning. Don't you?

As for being acknowledged: from the article in the OP

"Some gang experts have associated the rosary with gang activity.

“The rosary can be a sign of gang involvement,” said Victor Gonzales, the Director of the Houston mayor’s Anti-Gang Task Force. “Schools are just worried about safety.”
​

Why else would the school board see fit to include it with other gang symbols? Think they're simply anti-Catholic?

But banning rosaries for possibly being gang symbols is idiotic.

Can't (and wont) argue with logic like that.

 

[Skwim]

I agree, although I think that suspension is going too far. They could have just contacted the parents to inform them, instead of making a young ignorant girl make an emotional decision.

Certainly a possibility.

I do also think that banning kids from wearing rosary beads is ridiculous.

As has been pointed out, it isn't wearing a rosary that's against school rules, but wearing one that's visible.

 

[Madhuri]

As has been pointed out, it isn't wearing a rosary that's against school rules, but wearing one that's visible.

And yet they requested that she remove it, not hide it.

 

[Rakhel]

This same thing happened in up-state New York. A young boy, who had been wearing a rosary that his brother wore on the day of his death, was told to remove the beads or face suspension. The school's reasonings were the same: Rosary beads = gangs relations.
He took the same route. "Suspend me." and they did.

 

[McBell]

He took the same route. "Suspend me." and they did.

What gets me is that she is suddenly upset because the school called her bluff.

 

[Rakhel]

What gets me is that she is suddenly upset because the school called her bluff.

silly girl.