14 year-old girl wears rosary beads to school. Guess what happens

[Twilight Hue]

No...it is. It is assumed that any and all such attire is associated with gang related activities.

I agree. Based on the responses so far given in the thread, gang related imagery (religious themed or other) is predominantly in the form of tattoos. What is argued over is the presence of actual beads, and not that of a tattoos of rosary beads which interestingly enough raises up another question as to how tattoos themselves, being permanently etched in the skin, are addressed in schools by way of discipline and towards how this possibly can relate to the wearing of an actual rosary itself.

I personally think the girl has a legitimate and arguable case here to where at least a compromise could be reached to where she should stay as long as the beads remain reasonably concealed.

But of course blanket rules and regulations most always defy common sense, and is attributed to overly lazy organizers who want to quickly sweep their problems away by taking the good out along with the bad. Some way of educating the young uns by setting such examples. Real sad IMO.

 

[Skwim]

The school made the decision to ban the rosary because of "gang affiliation". That means that the connotation of a rosary is gang activity and as such disruptive to classroom affairs. What an idiotic assumption.

"The rosary can be a sign of gang involvement"
"Some gang experts have associated the rosary with gang activity."

My quarrel with your remark was the use of "predominant." Moreover, neither you nor I know for certain whether the rosary would or would not be disruptive. All we can assume is that the school board has found gang symbols to be disruptive, and rather than wait for each symbol to prove its disruptive nature, and thus risking disrupting a class or whatever, they banned all gang symbols, which is the prudent approach in my opinion. It's like banning all hand guns in schools because of their danger, not just those that have proven themselves to be a danger in past incidents. That the rosary has become a gang symbol and therefor qualifies as a banned symbol is unfortunate, but that's one of life's little inequities.

 

[Bismillah]

I agree. Based on the responses so far given in the thread, gang related imagery (religious themed or other) is predominantly in the form of tattoos. What is argued over is the presence of actual beads, and not that of a tattoos of rosary beads which interestingly enough raises up another question as to how tattoos themselves, being permanently etched in the skin, are addressed in schools by way of discipline and towards how this possibly can relate to the wearing of an actual rosary itself.

I personally think the girl has a legitimate and arguable case here to where at least a compromise could be reached to where she should stay as long as the beads remain reasonably concealed.

But of course blanket rules and regulations most always defy common sense, and is attributed to overly lazy organizers who want to quickly sweep their problems away by taking the good out along with the bad. Some way of educating the young uns by setting such examples. Real sad IMO.

Not only that but, many gangs have other religious related symbols in their amazing tattoo repertoire.

What will be next, banning the cross?

Taking such a zealous initiative to apply these broad labels was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

[Bismillah]

My quarrel with your remark was the use of "predominant."

The idea of a rosary disrupting the class would mean that more students would associate it with violence rather than religion. Hence it is predominant, feel free to show me how my word choice was wrong.

Moreover, neither you nor I know for certain whether the rosary would or would not be disruptive.

Is this disruptive?

What about this?

Are they disruptive when combined together?

All we can assume is that the school board has found gang symbols

Something becomes a de facto gang symbol when the prevalent attitude attributes the object in that context.

Not too many people use bandannas and those who do are imprinted in our perception as gangsters.

Now, are you telling me the general attitude is that the pope was a gangster?

they banned all gang symbols, which is the prudent approach in my opinion.

No, they banned all possible gang symbols. Big difference and an enveloping one that will incorporate traditional items that have never and most likely will never be associated with gangs.

It's like banning all hand guns in schools because of their danger

I don't think even you believe the actual validity in that comparison. Guns are lethal rosaries are spiritual

That the rosary has become a gang symbol and therefor qualifies as a banned symbol is unfortunate,

Says who, the education board? Just because gangs tattoo themselves with religious symbolism doesn't alter the meaning of those symbols.

 

[Skwim]

I agree. Based on the responses so far given in the thread, gang related imagery (religious themed or other) is predominantly in the form of tattoos. What is argued over is the presence of actual beads, and not that of a tattoos of rosary beads which interestingly enough raises up another question as to how tattoos themselves, being permanently etched in the skin, are addressed in schools by way of discipline and towards how this possibly can relate to the wearing of an actual rosary itself.

Not another No True Scotsman argument.

I personally think the girl has a legitimate and arguable case here to where at least a compromise could be reached to where she should stay as long as the beads remain reasonably concealed.

Which, in light of the remark by the school board, "openly wearing a rosary violates school policy." seems to be the obvious answer.

But of course blanket rules and regulations most always defy common sense, and is attributed to overly lazy organizers who want to quickly sweep their problems away by taking the good out along with the bad. Some way of educating the young uns by setting such examples. Real sad IMO.

Och, Sweeping generalizations hurt my eyes. And the good being saddled with rules because of the bad is exceedingly common in societies. Simply think of all the rules of the road that have been initiated in order to keep bad drivers in line.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not only that but, many gangs have other religious related symbols in their amazing tattoo repertoire.

What will be next, banning the cross?

Taking such a zealous initiative to apply these broad labels was a disaster waiting to happen.

Right. The argument over gang related imagery can easily be expanded elsewhere. Like hats, canes, forks, rabbits, foxes, crowns, sports logos (Like raiders jackets), even the star of David is used along with crosses by gangs.

Point being, is that just about anything can be associated with various imaginary if one looks hard enough for it. There has to be some reasonability taken into consideration rather than simply blowing up issues with legislative or regulative dynamite, just because administrators are simply too lazy or obtuse to consider things like this on a case by case basis.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I mean, to assume that everyone who wears a rosary is involved with a gang is kind of...insane...

No more insane than assuming everyone who wears the colour blue is involved with a gang.

Another issue: there's no requirement of faith for a Catholic to wear or carry a rosary. It's not like, say, the kirpan, which baptized sikhs are required to carry... and which caused quite a kerfuffle here when "zero tolerance" policies on weapons were first brought into place in schools.

 

[Bismillah]

Furthermore, I would think that to a large degree the rosary was a fashion statement.

" celebrities as Madonna, David Beckham, Lady Gaga and Britney Spears have contributed to the rosarie fashion craze."

Why are people wearing rosaries as a fashion statement? | ChaCha Answers

Catholics Express Outrage as Rosary Beads Become Fashion Statement - FoxNews.com

Seems like a much different meaning than the one the school board is trying to spin to justify their decision.

And I think what they actually had in mind is this type of stuff

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

A question for everyone here: what do you take "religious freedom" to mean?

IMO, it's something close to "the freedom to follow the dictates of one's religious faith", but the protagonist in the OP makes it sound like she takes it to mean "the freedom to do anything one wants as long as it has a religious motivation".

 

[Bismillah]

Another issue: there's no requirement of faith for a Catholic to wear or carry a rosary.

It's just as much a cultural symbol as it is a religious one and it most certainly isn't a gang symbol is the fresno bulldog a gang symbol?

 

[Bismillah]

"the freedom to do anything one wants as long as it has a religious motivation".

Which she should have as long as it doesn't negatively harm others?

And the issue ties in with not only religious freedoms but cultural norms.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Not another No True Scotsman argument.

This is pertaining towards this particular school, their action, and towards other schools that have similar such regulations and enforcement policies set up. Its obviously lazy and irresponsible behavior in the light of their simplistic decision making. Not a logical fallacy as you imply.

Och, Sweeping generalizations hurt my eyes. And the good being saddled with rules because of the bad is exceedingly common in societies. Simply think of all the rules of the road that have been initiated in order to keep bad drivers in line.

You seem to have forgotten to embolden, most while embolding always in my posting. Do I detect a bit of skewing on your part to fit in your argument here?

 

[Skwim]

The idea of a rosary disrupting the class would mean that more students would associate it with violence rather than religion. Hence it is predominant, feel free to show me how my word choice was wrong.

First of all, you said, "The school board is of the opinion that the predominant affiliation for the rosary is criminal deviance, which is idiotic." which is an unqualified use of the word. Now you choose to qualify it by assigning it to just students.

Secondly, whether more or not more students would associate it with violence rather than religion is irrelevant. As I pointed out in my previous post, the school board can't sit back and wait for every gang symbol to prove its non-disruptive nature.

Is this disruptive? Are they disruptive when combined together?

Irrelevant.

Now, are you telling me the general attitude is that the pope was a gangster?

Yes! That is what I'm telling you. The nature of the papacy is wholly dependent on what gang members in the Fort Bend Independent School District do.

No, they banned all possible gang symbols. Big difference and an enveloping one that will incorporate traditional items that have never and most likely will never be associated with gangs.

Not "possible" gang symbols, but symbols that have been appropriated by gangs. Big difference.

I don't think even you believe the actual validity in that comparison. Guns are lethal rosaries are spiritual

And like rosaries that have a very benign purpose, guns too can be used in a responsible and safe manner. However, in this community, just like the harm inherent in guns, the rosary has become a source of potential harm in schools.

Says who, the education board?

I can only assume that they too would say it's unfortunate.

Just because gangs tattoo themselves with religious symbolism doesn't alter the meaning of those symbols.

But it does give them an additional meaning.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's just as much a cultural symbol as it is a religious one and it most certainly isn't a gang symbol

As is the Sex Pistols shirt that a friend of mine had to wear inside out for the day because my high school administration deemed it offensive. Schools generally have rules about what students can do and wear that are more restrictive than the overall laws of the community.

is the fresno bulldog a gang symbol?

I have no idea. Is it?

Which she should have as long as it doesn't negatively harm others?

If her wearing a rosary makes it more difficult to fight gangs in the school, then it probably would harm others.

And the issue ties in with not only religious freedoms but cultural norms.

Are you saying that wearing a rosary is a cultural norm?

 

[Skwim]

You seem to have forgotten to embolden, most while embolding always in my posting. Do I detect a bit of skewing on your part to fit in your argument here?

Typo. Thanks. I have to sign off now, but will return to your comments later.

 

[Willamena]

Those rosary gangs are such bad news. :tsk:

 

[Amill]

Did the rosary have to do with the gang involvement in the area? Or are they saying that around the country it's used? If it's an area thing, I'm not surprised they asked her to remove it. For a year or so while I was in high school no one was allowed to wear north carolina blue because of some silly gang crap.

 

[Bismillah]

which is an unqualified use of the word. Now you choose to qualify it by assigning it to just students.

Secondly, whether more or not more students would associate it with violence rather than religion is irrelevant. As I pointed out in my previous post, the school board can't sit back and wait for every gang symbol to prove its non-disruptive nature.

Neither of which of course dispute the use of the word, but I'm not going to argue semantics.

Whether students associate something with a gang is highly relevant, as it is the cause of disruption...

Yes! That is what I'm telling you. The nature of the papacy is wholly dependent on what gang members in the Fort Bend Independent School District do.

And yet you miss that the major symbols of a rosary are the pope clutching his rosary, nuns praying, and celebrities draping it around their necks

And like rosaries that have a very benign purpose

rosary has become a source of potential harm in schools.

Really? Where because I didn't see that as listed. All I saw is that the rosary is a possible gang symbol. Please don't try and push this analogy.

But it does give them an additional meaning.

Only when acknowledged. When it is accepted that the rosary is a gang symbol and not a religious object or a cultural statement I'll agree with you.

But banning rosaries for possibly being gang symbols is idiotic. Because next time you just might want to ban crosses and any other arbritary object.

 

[Bismillah]

As is the Sex Pistols shirt that a friend of mine had to wear inside out for the day because my high school administration deemed it offensive. Schools generally have rules about what students can do and wear that are more restrictive than the overall laws of the community.

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate"

-Tinker vs Des moines

It would make sense if the object actually does cause a disruption and actually is acknowledged as a gang symbol.

I have no idea. Is it?

A prominent gang in Fresno has so identified with the dog that they sport these banners and wear this apparel to identify their gang.

A much more apparent example than a rosary.

If her wearing a rosary makes it more difficult to fight gangs in the school, then it probably would harm others.

No one has showed how rosaries are associated with gangs.

Are you saying that wearing a rosary is a cultural norm?

It is both a religious and cultural form of expression depending on intention.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

"It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate"

-Tinker vs Des moines

"On the other hand, the Court has repeatedly emphasized the need for affirming the comprehensive authority of the States and of school officials, consistent with fundamental constitutional safeguards, to prescribe and control conduct in the schools."

- Tinker vs. Des Moines

It would make sense if the object actually does cause a disruption and actually is acknowledged as a gang symbol.

For the time being, I'm taking the school's word for it when they say it is, but does it matter from your perspective? I got the impression that because her motivation wasn't gang-related, she should have the right to wear it, period.

A prominent gang in Fresno has so identified with the dog that they sport these banners and wear this apparel to identify their gang.

A much more apparent example than a rosary.

I would probably be inclined to agree. However, if I was to support a prohibition on this symbol as well, then I don't see how my position would be in conflict.

No one has showed how rosaries are associated with gangs.

"No one" in this thread, or "no one", period? If the former, I don't see how it's relevant; if the latter, I'd say this is a positive claim that you have the burden of proof in defending.

It is both a religious and cultural form of expression depending on intention.

It holds a position as a cultural norm as something to hold while praying. Not as jewelry.

Actually, from what I understand, many Catholics dislike the idea of people wearing the rosary as jewelry.