10 Questions...How Would You Answer?

[JayJayDee]

As requested, I am asking these questions in the Same Faith Debate forum. If mods would like to transfer the whole thread from the Christianity DIR, please do so.


1) What is entailed in Jesus' role as mediator?

2) Why did man come to need a mediator between them and their Creator in the first place?

3) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why could one part of God act as the only mediator for the rest? (1 Tim 2:5, 6) Or was it only for the Father? Do we need a mediator between us and the Holy Spirit? If not, why not?

4) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why don't we need a mediator between us and him? Where is the equality?

5) Why do we never find the term "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" when we clearly see the term, "God the Father" in the Bible? (1 Cor 8:5, 6)

6) Why did Jesus call his Father "the only true God" and not include himself? (John 17:3)

7) Why did Jesus call his Father "my God" (three times in this one verse) even after his return to heaven? (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God? Does he worship the other equal parts of himself? If so, where is the command to worship the Holy Spirit?

8) If the son is 'uncreated', why does Rev 3:14 call Jesus "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (NASB) Also mentioned by the apostle Paul in Col 1:15, 16?

9) Why did Jesus say that "Jehovah" (the Father) "alone" was to be worshipped? (Luke 4:8; he was quoting Deut 10:20)

10) Why do only two parts of the godhead have personal names? The Father and the son are named many times, but the Holy Spirit is nameless. Titles are not names. Why can we only pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ? Why not pray directly to the son or the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide scripture where it tells us to pray to anyone but the Father?

Please supply scripture to back up answers.

Thank you.

 

[dawny0826]

Thanks for posting this in the same faith debates section. I'm a non-denominational Christian and assume that all who identify as Christian are able to participate.

As a preface, I am spiritual far more than I am religious and believe very much that the bible is living. I believe that additional truths may be revealed to a believer through prayer, study and worship. As such, I may not be able to answer each of these questions with a word-for-word scriptural reference.

Hebrews 4:12 NKJV Source: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+4&version=NKJV

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

I will also post links which reference scripture when answering some of these questions to make answers easier to follow.

 

[savagewind]

2) Why did man come to need a mediator between them and their Creator in the first place?

3) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why could one part of God act as the only mediator for the rest? (1 Tim 2:5, 6) Or was it only for the Father? Do we need a mediator between us and the Holy Spirit? If not, why not?

4) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why don't we need a mediator between us and him? Where is the equality?

Which parties is Jesus a mediator between, according to Jehovah's Witness theology?

The wording of your questions makes it appear that you believe Jesus is mediator between humankind and Jehovah, but is it true?

 

[dawny0826]

1) What is entailed in Jesus' role as mediator?

2) Why did man come to need a mediator between them and their Creator in the first place?

Man required a Savior because of our sin and uncleanliness. Blood has always been described the price for remission of sin since man was cast from Eden. See Hebrews 9:22 NKJV

Reference: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+9&version=NKJV

No unclean thing can appear before God. See Revelation 21:27

Reference: Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It's by Christ's blood that we are made clean.

Multiple scriptural references: Bible Verses on the Blood of Jesus Christ

 

[dawny0826]

3) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why could one part of God act as the only mediator for the rest? (1 Tim 2:5, 6) Or was it only for the Father? Do we need a mediator between us and the Holy Spirit? If not, why not?

I'm a Trinitarian as you know. I can only offer you an explanation as to my beliefs. Edit to include: And I do not claim that my beliefs and understanding mirrors that of every Trinitarian.

John 10:30 NKJV

Reference: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&version=NKJV

I and my Father are one.

Through the Old Testament of the bible, God showed man many wonders of His might and established His covenant with man and yet man was still evil. God keeps His promises, however.

My belief is that God became flesh to show us through His example HOW to commune with God, HOW to live for God and HOW to lay our own lives down to live according to His way. Through Christ, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our guide, our discerner.

From my perspective, our God is a mighty, mighty God who came to us to show us how we can be reconciled to Him.

When we choose to follow Christ, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus is my mediator, my savior, my healer. Christ Jesus is the epitome of my God's love for me. He cared enough to become like me and to show me how I can return to Him when my days are done.

Not a soul can take this peace from me. See Phillipians 4:7

Reference: Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

 

[dawny0826]

5) Why do we never find the term "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" when we clearly see the term, "God the Father" in the Bible? (1 Cor 8:5, 6)

I'm not sure that you're understanding the concept of a triune Godhead from the perspective of most Trinitarians. God as Father. God as Christ. God as Holy Spirit.

God is Father. Throughout time, it has been challening for us to connect with and understand God without a human interface. God became that for us as Christ Jesus. The veil was torn, giving us a direct avenue to have a personal relationship with our God Almighty through Christ Jesus. We become new beings as we could recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - God as Holy Spirit leading us, guiding us, instructing us, chastising us.

I think that Romans, Chapter 8 summates well:

Reference: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8&version=NKJV

6) Why did Jesus call his Father "the only true God" and not include himself? (John 17:3)

This was God as Son talking.

7) Why did Jesus call his Father "my God" (three times in this one verse) even after his return to heaven? (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God? Does he worship the other equal parts of himself? If so, where is the command to worship the Holy Spirit?

God as Son, showing us through His example how we are to lay the flesh down. ONE God, triune nature.

 

[dawny0826]

8) If the son is 'uncreated', why does Rev 3:14 call Jesus "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (NASB) Also mentioned by the apostle Paul in Col 1:15, 16?

You and I understand these verses differently, JayJayDee. I understand this to mean that Christ was always the plan for our salvation and was intended before we came to be.

Scripture also tells us that God is the Word. The Word was with God in the beginning and became flesh.

References:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

 

[dawny0826]

9) Why did Jesus say that "Jehovah" (the Father) "alone" was to be worshipped? (Luke 4:8; he was quoting Deut 10:20)

Because only God is to be worshipped. Think Trinitarian perspective and Christ's purpose.

10) Why do only two parts of the godhead have personal names? The Father and the son are named many times, but the Holy Spirit is nameless. Titles are not names. Why can we only pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ? Why not pray directly to the son or the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide scripture where it tells us to pray to anyone but the Father?

Really?

According to Scripture, the Holy Spirit is Truth.

Reference: John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

As is Christ Jesus.

Reference: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

[JayJayDee]

Man required a Savior because of our sin and uncleanliness. Blood has always been described the price for remission of sin since man was cast from Eden. See Hebrews 9:22 NKJV

Reference: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews 9&version=NKJV

No unclean thing can appear before God. See Revelation 21:27

Reference: Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.

It's by Christ's blood that we are made clean.

Multiple scriptural references: Bible Verses on the Blood of Jesus Christ

Thank you for your patience in my late response dawny.

We have agreement on these things.
"The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin". So we require a mediator between us and our Holy God because nothing unclean can come before him and sin makes us unholy...correct?

 

[JayJayDee]

I'm a Trinitarian as you know. I can only offer you an explanation as to my beliefs. Edit to include: And I do not claim that my beliefs and understanding mirrors that of every Trinitarian.

John 10:30 NKJV

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) Yes, and John also records Jesus as saying......

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one" (John 17:20-22)

Do you believe that Jesus was claiming his disciples were also part of the godhead or is this a unity of purpose that he is describing?

Through the Old Testament of the bible, God showed man many wonders of His might and established His covenant with man and yet man was still evil. God keeps His promises, however.

My belief is that God became flesh to show us through His example HOW to commune with God, HOW to live for God and HOW to lay our own lives down to live according to His way. Through Christ, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, our guide, our discerner.

From my perspective, our God is a mighty, mighty God who came to us to show us how we can be reconciled to Him.

When we choose to follow Christ, we receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Christ Jesus is my mediator, my savior, my healer. Christ Jesus is the epitome of my God's love for me. He cared enough to become like me and to show me how I can return to Him when my days are done.

Can you show me where it says in the Bible that God became a man? Is there a scripture that says Jesus was God and man at the same time? I can find several references to the fact that God sent Christ who was his son, but not that Jesus is God.

So from your trinitarian perspective, we need a mediator between us and one part of God, but not for the others? Can you tell me how that works if they are all equal parts of the godhead?

Not a soul can take this peace from me. See Phillipians 4:7

Reference: Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I appreciate the attachment that many people have towards a doctrine that they have been taught to cherish all their lives, but if it is a lie, then all that sentiment is wasted. You are free to hang onto it but you may find that it will lead to disappointment.

 

[te_lanus]

For me most of the questions have the Same answer

 

[JayJayDee]

I'm not sure that you're understanding the concept of a triune Godhead from the perspective of most Trinitarians. God as Father. God as Christ. God as Holy Spirit.

I'm not sure that you understand the question.
I can find the expression "God the Father" clearly stated in the Bible....but I cannot find the expression "God the Son" nor can I find "God the Holy Spirit" written anywhere. Can you explain that?

God is Father. Throughout time, it has been challening for us to connect with and understand God without a human interface. God became that for us as Christ Jesus. The veil was torn, giving us a direct avenue to have a personal relationship with our God Almighty through Christ Jesus. We become new beings as we could recieve the indwelling of the Holy Spirit - God as Holy Spirit leading us, guiding us, instructing us, chastising us.

I cannot see how any were challenged by God not having a "human interface". Moses, Abraham, Job, King David, Elijah, Jeremiah and all the Prophets had no problem at all. Angels on occasion became a human interface for their God when they delivered messages from him to his servants on earth. So I am at a loss to see that point as valid. (Sorry)

I think that Romans, Chapter 8 summates well:

Reference: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans 8&version=NKJV

This scripture is about the anointed disciples of Christ receiving their adoption as sons. I do not personally believe that all Christians have the "heavenly calling", since these ones have been "bought from the earth" to act as "kings and priests" for the redeemed ones of mankind, many of whom lived in times and lands where Jesus was unknown. Those who go to heaven are made perfect and are granted immortality, and all such were disciples of Jesus.....so why do they need priests? And if they are to rule as kings...who are their subjects?

This was God as Son talking.

In John 17:3 Jesus identifies himself as a separate entity. He does not include himself as part of the "only true God".

When tempted by the devil, Jesus told him that "Jehovah alone" was to be worshipped. When he said "it is written" he was quoting the OT at Deut 10:20 where the Tetragrammaton is clearly stated in the text, so The Father is Jehovah....not the son. He "alone" was to be worshipped.

God as Son, showing us through His example how we are to lay the flesh down. ONE God, triune nature.

Revelation 3:12 "He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name."

He is making a promise that those who are faithful will be rewarded. He refers to his Father as "my God" four times in that one verse. If he is God why aren't these things his?

 

[te_lanus]

Most of the answers in my own Heretical thinking

mediator

[mee-dee-ey-ter]
noun
a person who mediates, especially between parties at variance.

1) What is entailed in Jesus' role as mediator?

2) Why did man come to need a mediator between them and their Creator in the first place?

Man doesn't need a mediator. Jesus is "the Saviour of mankind" not a mediator. THe Bible clearly states that Jesus said that we should pray unto the Father (Luke 11:2 He said to them, "When you pray, say: "'Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come.), and not unto Him.

3) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why could one part of God act as the only mediator for the rest? (1 Tim 2:5, 6) Or was it only for the Father? Do we need a mediator between us and the Holy Spirit? If not, why not?

The Trinity is a man made idea, and didn't exist up to the Arian debate (Athanasius, who was present at the Council as one of the Bishop of Alexandria's assistants, stated that the bishops were forced to use this terminology, which is not found in Scripture)

4) If Jesus is an equal part of the godhead, why don't we need a mediator between us and him? Where is the equality?

He isn't. He's the Son of God. Jesus is a demigod, Half-Man (from a Human Mommy) and Half-God (From God as Daddy)

5) Why do we never find the term "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" when we clearly see the term, "God the Father" in the Bible? (1 Cor 8:5, 6)

6) Why did Jesus call his Father "the only true God" and not include himself? (John 17:3)

Since Neither Jesus or The Holy Spirit are Gods. The Holy Spirit is a messenger of God, And Jesus is a Demigod

7) Why did Jesus call his Father "my God" (three times in this one verse) even after his return to heaven? (Rev 3:12) Can God have a God? Does he worship the other equal parts of himself? If so, where is the command to worship the Holy Spirit?

8) If the son is 'uncreated', why does Rev 3:14 call Jesus "the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God" (NASB) Also mentioned by the apostle Paul in Col 1:15, 16?

9) Why did Jesus say that "Jehovah" (the Father) "alone" was to be worshipped? (Luke 4:8; he was quoting Deut 10:20)

10) Why do only two parts of the godhead have personal names? The Father and the son are named many times, but the Holy Spirit is nameless. Titles are not names. Why can we only pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ? Why not pray directly to the son or the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide scripture where it tells us to pray to anyone but the Father?

these are answered in Question 5 (and is really just the same Question asked over and over, just from a different angle each time

 

[Huey09]

Don't have time to answer this but I will tomorrow if possible (college is killing my blogging)

 

[JayJayDee]

You and I understand these verses differently, JayJayDee. I understand this to mean that Christ was always the plan for our salvation and was intended before we came to be.

Do you mean that God knew that we would fail even before Adam and his wife disobeyed God's command and planned for Jesus to come all along? Can you give me some scriptural reference for that?

Scripture also tells us that God is the Word. The Word was with God in the beginning and became flesh.

References:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In an Interlinear, that verse in John 1:1 reads..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE GOD and the word was god."

So because there is no indefinite article in Greek (a or an) but only a definite article (the) we can see two gods mentioned in that verse. Can there be two gods???? Yes there can. The title "god" is not used exclusively of the Father. Jesus is rightly called a god because the meaning of the title is simply "mighty one" or "powerful one". The Greek identifies which "god" is intended by use of the definite article, most particularly because one is said to be THE God and the other is not.
In verse 18 Jesus is described as the "only begotten god" confirming that he is not the Almighty because Jehovah cannot be begotten.

In verse 14 it says that "the Word became flesh", not THE God.

And if all the members of the godhead are eternal then there was no "beginning" for any of them.

How can Jesus be "with God" and at the same time, Be God?

It is a stretch at best so no proof of a trinity that I can see in these verses.

 

[JayJayDee]

According to Scripture, the Holy Spirit is Truth.

That is not a name. The Tetragrammaton is given as the divine name of the only true God. YHWH (Yahweh or Jehovah) is the name that God gave himself. It is the only name that he gave and said it was to be his name "forever" (Ex 3:15)

Jesus has several names which indicate his various roles in God's purpose. But the Holy Spirit is nameless.

I believe that God's spirit is his awesome power that accomplishes everything he sends it to do. It is "poured out" on individuals, it "fills" people, it was used in creation and in empowered Jesus and his apostles to perform miracles.

When Moses was leading his nation out of Egypt God's spirit was upon him and when the load got too heavy, God took some of the spirit he gave to Moses and gave it to the 70 that he appointed as assistants. This is not something you do with a person.

Reference: John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Jesus used the expression “the helper” for the role of the Holy Spirit. It has the masculine gender in Greek so it is used as a masculine personification. God's spirit is an impersonal force, which has the neuter gender in Greek.

As is Christ Jesus.

Reference: John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Neither Jesus nor the Holy Spirit has cornered the market on truth. We must "worship the father with spirit and truth."

Jesus also said that we would 'know the truth and the truth will set us free'. He said that 'God's word is truth.'

Jehovah is called "the God of truth"

"Truth" is not the name of the Holy Spirit.....mostly it is referred to in scripture as just that....."the Holy Spirit"

 

[dawny0826]

Thank you for your patience in my late response dawny.

We have agreement on these things.
"The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin". So we require a mediator between us and our Holy God because nothing unclean can come before him and sin makes us unholy...correct?

Thank you and I apologize to you for my late response at this juncture. Having some computer problems that I hope will be resolved soon. I look forward to responding soon.

 

[dawny0826]

Thank you for your patience in my late response dawny.

We have agreement on these things.
"The blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin". So we require a mediator between us and our Holy God because nothing unclean can come before him and sin makes us unholy...correct?

No worries. I'm still working through computer trouble, so my responses may be here and there, at best, until we fix/replace the computer.

Yes, we are in agreeance that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin. I believe that God as Christ was the required mediator and our savior.

I don't believe that we require a mediator now to commune with God.

When in sin, we are uholy, yes. It's only through the forgiveness by God that we can be clean (through Christ).

 

[dawny0826]

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30) Yes, and John also records Jesus as saying......

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one" (John 17:20-22)

Do you believe that Jesus was claiming his disciples were also part of the godhead or is this a unity of purpose that he is describing?

No. My understanding is that Jesus was describing reconciliation, here.

Can you show me where it says in the Bible that God became a man? Is there a scripture that says Jesus was God and man at the same time? I can find several references to the fact that God sent Christ who was his son, but not that Jesus is God.

No. I explained that in my initial post.

I cannot provide word-for-word scripture that will give you and others what you would need to accept the Trinity. I'm not asking you to believe as I do. I'm not asking you to evaluate your beliefs and to consider something else. I'm asking you to understand that one can read the Word and commune w/ God and have another understanding of His nature. I don't feel like I should have to defend that, particularly to other people who claim to be Christian too. Clearly, these folks understand what it's like to have peace in God and to have clarity and to have discernment of spirit to know what's not right and of detriment to the spirit.

So from your trinitarian perspective, we need a mediator between us and one part of God, but not for the others? Can you tell me how that works if they are all equal parts of the godhead?

Look at my avatar. What do you see? I see a circle representing ONE God, but, within that circle, you see three intertwining and extended facets of that one God.

I appreciate the attachment that many people have towards a doctrine that they have been taught to cherish all their lives, but if it is a lie, then all that sentiment is wasted. You are free to hang onto it but you may find that it will lead to disappointment.

I am free to live in the peace that surpasses all understanding, through Christ Jesus. Who are you considering He who is within me? I know to whom I belong. You can't take that away from me.

 

[dawny0826]

Do you mean that God knew that we would fail even before Adam and his wife disobeyed God's command and planned for Jesus to come all along? Can you give me some scriptural reference for that?

I believe God to be all-knowing. Draw your own conclusions. Sources below.

1020 God, all-knowing - Dictionary of Bible Themes - Bible Gateway

1 John 3:20 If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.

In an Interlinear, that verse in John 1:1 reads..."In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with THE GOD and the word was god."

So because there is no indefinite article in Greek (a or an) but only a definite article (the) we can see two gods mentioned in that verse. Can there be two gods???? Yes there can. The title "god" is not used exclusively of the Father. Jesus is rightly called a god because the meaning of the title is simply "mighty one" or "powerful one". The Greek identifies which "god" is intended by use of the definite article, most particularly because one is said to be THE God and the other is not.
In verse 18 Jesus is described as the "only begotten god" confirming that he is not the Almighty because Jehovah cannot be begotten.

In verse 14 it says that "the Word became flesh", not THE God.

And if all the members of the godhead are eternal then there was no "beginning" for any of them.

How can Jesus be "with God" and at the same time, Be God?

It is a stretch at best so no proof of a trinity that I can see in these verses.

You can't disprove spiritual understanding anymore than I could prove it.