“The Son is equal to his Father”

[URAVIP2ME]

Thus the difficult task of what is written about who made the heavens:
John 1:3 All things were made by him (The Word - Jesus); and without him was not any thing made that was made
John 1:10 NASB He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him (The Word - Jesus), and yet the world did not know Him.
Colossians 1:15 He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation: 16 for by Him (Jesus) things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominions, or rulers, or authorities—all things have been created through Him (Jesus) and for Him (Jesus)
That is just one of many things that dictate the Godhead included The Word - Jesus.

Huh? God was never the firstborn of all creation. If so, who created the first born ?
Through ' Son Jesus ' God created. The created Jesus (Rev. 3:14 B) is part of the 'us' of Gen. 1:26
I would say the Head of Christ is his God - 1st Corinthians 2:16; 11:3 B

 

[URAVIP2ME]

And still John 10:30 "The Father and I are one"

Yes, Jesus and his Father are one: One in purpose, one in unity, one in goal, one in belief that is why Jesus prayed that his followers be one just as he and his Father are one - see John 17:11; John 17:21-23
Surely Jesus was Not praying that his followers also become God !

 

[Dimi95]

Yes, Jesus and his Father are one: One in purpose, one in unity, one in goal, one in belief that is why Jesus prayed that his followers be one just as he and his Father are one - see John 17:11; John 17:21-23
Surely Jesus was Not praying that his followers also become God !

Another explenation , out ot Scripture.
Not interested

Still you have not answered post #162

 

[Soapy]

Thomas was impetuous and because he saw Jesus resurrected he uttered a fantastic exclamation. That he called Jesus his Lord and God does not mean that Jesus is God equal to two other godpersons or that Thomas ever believed in a trinity of godpersons.

True… No one in the writings of the scriptures is ever portrayed as being trinitarian in belief. Trinity only rears it’s head in the forced translations which do not even make sense. But we know that no matter how obvious the falseness God knows that they will still believe the lie:

• ‘And God will send them a strong delusion so that they believe the lie’

Moreover, what God says, will be - so our only hope is that the few will hear the true word and believe it.

 

[Soapy]

Huh? Jesus claims he still has a God over him - Rev. 3:12.
Thomas was the one who asked how can we know the way at John 14:5
Jesus answered Thomas that 'No one comes to the Father except through Jesus' at John 14:6.
If Jesus was the Father then there would be No need for Jesus to be mediator.

And also if Jesus is God what need is there for a mediator between God and Man?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Ok , you have to understand what is transitivity to understand scriptute.
If a = b and b = c, then a = c
In Revelation 21 it says
He who was seated on the throne said, 'I am making everything new!' Then he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.'
He said to me: 'It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life.'.
So , we go to Revelation 22:6
'The angel said to me, 'These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.'
then
Revelation 22:12-16
'Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city.Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
'I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.'
Can you understand now?

Yes, Jesus is the Offspring of David. God is Not the Offspring of David.
Jesus is the shining *star* that rises out of the House of David, and unlike David Jesus' rising out of David's house sits down on the throne forever - Revelation 22:6-16*; 3:21; Psalm 110

 

[YoursTrue]

True… No one in the writings of the scriptures is ever portrayed as being trinitarian in belief. Trinity only rears it’s head in the forced translations which do not even make sense. But we know that no matter how obvious the falseness God knows that they will still believe the lie:

• ‘And God will send them a strong delusion so that they believe the lie’

Moreover, what God says, will be - so our only hope is that the few will hear the true word and believe it.

I believe God reads the hearts and He will do what He will do. No doubt about it.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Matthew 5:
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.................................

I see that you mean a person would literally see God.
In the Greek "see" can carry the sense of to 'see with the mind's eye'. To understand, to know, to perceive.
Pure in heart, the eyes of the heart, The 'eyes of your understanding' as per Ephesians 1:18.
Sometimes in English we might say we 'see a person as he really is'. Not speaking of his physical appearance.
So, we don't have to literally see God but we can see His qualities of Love, justice, wisdom and mercy......

 

[YoursTrue]

True… No one in the writings of the scriptures is ever portrayed as being trinitarian in belief. Trinity only rears it’s head in the forced translations which do not even make sense. But we know that no matter how obvious the falseness God knows that they will still believe the lie:

• ‘And God will send them a strong delusion so that they believe the lie’

Moreover, what God says, will be - so our only hope is that the few will hear the true word and believe it.

Think about this, and I often do -- the Bible speaks of enemies of Israel during those days. Their enemies did not see the true God. And sometimes neither did the Israelites. To me this makes the Bible ever so much more true about God, the one Jesus prayed to very often. Take care.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I believe God reads the hearts and He will do what He will do. No doubt about it.

I like that you brought out God reads the hearts..... because the innermost person or a part of a man that can be deeply rooted in his religious life reflected in his moral life or life style doing what he will do.
After all our imperfect hearts (Jeremiah 17:9; 10:23) can mislead or misguide us without biblical guidance.

 

[Dimi95]

Yes, Jesus is the Offspring of David. God is Not the Offspring of David.
Jesus is the shining *star* that rises out of the House of David, and unlike David Jesus' rising out of David's house sits down on the throne forever - Revelation 22:6-16*; 3:21; Psalm 110

You ignored everyrhing that was bolded , again..

You ignore also this in Revelation 3
"These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars."

"These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open."

"These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation."

"These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation."

Also don't forget

1 Samuel 2:2
"There is none holy as the LORD, for there is none beside Thee; neither is there any rock like our God."


Read 2 Samuel 22 regarding David.

Also

Psalm 110
"The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
You are a priest forever,
in the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord is at your right hand;
he will crush kings on the day of his wrath.
He will judge the nations, heaping up the dead
and crushing the rulers of the whole earth.
He will drink from a brook along the way,
and so he will lift his head high."

 

[Kenny]

Huh? God was never the firstborn of all creation. If so, who created the first born ?
Through ' Son Jesus ' God created. The created Jesus (Rev. 3:14 B) is part of the 'us' of Gen. 1:26
I would say the Head of Christ is his God - 1st Corinthians 2:16; 11:3 B

If Jesus created all things, and created the heavens and then you say he didn’t… we have a problem, Houston. One of the problems is that you didn’t address what I quoted.

The issue is that you are comparing the manifested Word as Jesus with The Word before the manifested Jesus. What that means, how that affects who He is, and why He did that as the manifested Christ Jesus,

The Word manifested as Jesus was the first born created after defeating death, Hell and the grave. We are of the family of the “new creature” or “new creation” of which Jesus was the first-born.

 

[Trailblazer]

And who are ‘Baha'u'llah and His successors’?

Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God and His successors were Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. After the death of Shoghi Effendi in 1957, authority passed to the Universal House of Justice (UHJ).

The Bahá’í Faith began with the mission entrusted by God to two Divine Messengers—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh. Today, the distinctive unity of the Faith They founded stems from explicit instructions given by Bahá’u’lláh that have assured the continuity of guidance following His passing. This line of succession, referred to as the Covenant, went from Bahá’u’lláh to His Son ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, and then from ‘Abdu’l-Bahá to His grandson, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice, ordained by Bahá’u’lláh. A Bahá’í accepts the divine authority of the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh and of these appointed successors.

Read more:
Bahá’u’lláh and His Covenant

What are their beliefs and are they Christian (whatever ‘Christian’ means!)

Baha'u'llah did not have beliefs. He received a revelation from God, so He had knowledge from God.

The spiritual teachings of Christianity and the Baha'i Faith are the same, although our doctrines are different.
Baha'u'llah promoted His own Faith, which He referred to as the Cause of God for this age.
He did not promote Christianity, but He told us to believe in Jesus and explained to us the effect that Jesus had upon the world.

“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.

We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.

Leprosy may be interpreted as any veil that interveneth between man and the recognition of the Lord, his God. Whoso alloweth himself to be shut out from Him is indeed a leper, who shall not be remembered in the Kingdom of God, the Mighty, the All-Praised. We bear witness that through the power of the Word of God every leper was cleansed, every sickness was healed, every human infirmity was banished. He it is Who purified the world. Blessed is the man who, with a face beaming with light, hath turned towards Him.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

 

[Dimi95]

I see that you mean a person would literally see God.
In the Greek "see" can carry the sense of to 'see with the mind's eye'. To understand, to know, to perceive.
Pure in heart, the eyes of the heart, The 'eyes of your understanding' as per Ephesians 1:18.
Sometimes in English we might say we 'see a person as he really is'. Not speaking of his physical appearance.
So, we don't have to literally see God but we can see His qualities of Love, justice, wisdom and mercy......

Nono , that is false.

How on Earth are you going to explain Greek to me?

ὁράω • (horáō) first-singular present indicative
(intransitive) to look with the eyes
+ εἰς (accusative) = at something or someone

 

[Dimi95]

Nono , that is false.

How on Earth are you going to explain Greek to me?

ὁράω • (horáō) first-singular present indicative
(intransitive) to look with the eyes
+ εἰς (accusative) = at something or someone

Also

katharos(greek) is pure(ENG) and it means physically clean.

 

[Dimi95]

If Jesus was the Father then there would be No need for Jesus to be mediator.

Well 1 Corinthians 15 says otherwise
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'
'Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"

 

[Link]

I’m searching for the reasoning behind ‘Son is equal to Father’ in Christianity or tradition of the Jews - or that it is a myth to substantiate a falsehood of trinitarianism.

The problem is the prophecy of Mohammad (s) would be too clear if holy spirit is understood as a station and position held by Jesus and others before him and after him.

Elyas (a) and why he appeared with Moses (a) with Jesus (a) would all be understood. What is meant by Elijah (a) returning being implied by John (a) being killed, and that the world is not ready to accept such souls, and Jesus (a) going to heaven, means Elyas (a) holds the station of holy spirit till the prophesized one comes. If Elijah (a) would be in the open, then the world would either be destroyed trying to kill him or Elijah (a) killed, but Elijah (a) returns with the Messiah on the onset, and helps him during his rule too and so this is why he was hidden. Elyas (a) would be in the open if he can be recognized, but with Yahya (a) killed and Isa (a) denied, what's the point?

It's all to clear so then a philosophy has to be made. Remember Gog and Magog, is what lead Israelites to lose their prestige and height and be overcome by enemies. This society infiltrates wherever revelations appear, to corrupt the religion, some of them are the kings that kill Prophets such as John the Baptist (a), others are corrupted scholars with high position pretending to be pious and build a reputation of higher purity status and knowledge, when they are wolves, others just outright fabricate lies to the Prophets (a).

The revelation of Dul-Kifl (a) (two portions means he split into two persons by fabrication and the two revelations exposing Gog and Magog were from him) exposes that the battle between good and evil, is not simple. When people are not on guard on the secret societies and their evil ways, everything becomes corrupted. When people forget about Satan and his champion human on earth and the sorcerers who follow him, everything is easily manipulated and revelation becomes corrupted in interpretation then eventually in some text as well.

The Gospels correct much of the Torah and Tanakh, and show that God's chosen kings and their exalted status, is not what people gave them. Jesus (a) might seem like self-praising, but is talking about all chosen Kings, from Adam (a) till him (a) and his prophecy of the praised one/comforter, makes it all too clear, that all the words he praised about himself - that it's going to be held by that person.

There is also the lines when Jesus (a) says he is not the Prophet nor Elijah but.. so there is the "the Prophet" that Jesus (a) is not that person while he is a Prophet.

 

[Bthoth]

Well 1 Corinthians 15 says otherwise
"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'
'Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"

That is about the resurrection and how the dead shall be alive (raised).

It's an old prophecy restated in a letter to a church. The chapter is using that old prophecy mixed in with jesus and the requirement to accept their opinion on the resurrection (belief system)

 

[Bthoth]

I have been trying to research from the Christian Bible the idea that:

• ‘A son is equal to his Father’

I can, nowhere, find such a schema from Judaism or Christianity but it is relevant to a part of trinitarianism and other ‘Father, Son, and Holy Spirit’ type of ideological beliefs, wherein it is claimed that:

1. ‘Jesus is equal to God because he is the Son of God’
2. ‘Jesus had the same nature as God so he, too, is God’
3. ‘Jesus received all things that the Father had therefore jesus is God’

These are a few of the reasonings I have heard but which carry no evidence from the scriptures... and it is from the scriptures that I seek the answer to:

• Where is this belief shown in the Old and New Testaments

I am asking:

• If the Son receives what he has from the Father, how is the son equal to the Father who gave him what he has?
• Jesus is given all power and authority BY the Father ... but only did a period of time - and even so, the ‘all things’ did not mean ‘absolutely all things’ because the Father’s “Seat of Power” was not part of the deal. This is illustrated by the stories of:

1. Joseph in Egypt given all power and authority to rule over Ha roads Kingdom ... for a period of time until the famine was over’ whence he ‘HANDED BACK POWER AND AUTHORITY TO’ Pharoah. And, Pharoah said to him, ‘EXCEPT FOR MY THRONE, you are to be Pharoah to my people’
2. Mordeciah in Persia (Book of Esther) in which King Xerxes handed over his Rulership to Mordeciah so that Mordeciah could save the Jews on the day of Purim where the Jews in that kingdom were edicted to be destroyed by the wicked Haman who tricked kings Xerxes.
3. Moses, also, was ‘GOD’ for a period of time under Pharoah. THE GOD, YAHWEH said to him that he was to be ‘God to Pharoah’ (read that as you may) and Moses even was given a high priest to mediate between himself and the people (there’s more to this than I’m saying but times and attention doesn’t warrant right now)

What these show is that even if a Father (or God) gives ‘ALL’ or designates another (obviously, a SON OF MAN) to ACT on his behalf, this still doesn’t make the trusted ‘Son’ EQUAL to the Father, to the God, who entrusted him.

Furthermore, what is it then when the Father has more than one Son - are they both (all) equal to each other ... I don’t think any scriptures credits that reasoning - does it?

Lastly, Adam, the first human, (until he sinned) is credited as being:

• ‘SON OF GOD’ (Luke 3:38)

How is it no one say that:

• ‘Adam was equal to God’

And we know the holy angels are:

• ‘Sons of God’

Why are they not said to:

• ‘Be equal to God because they are Sons of God’

And Jesus prays to the Father that the apostles should also become ‘Sons’ of God...

• ‘Equal to God’???

I’m searching for the reasoning behind ‘Son is equal to Father’ in Christianity or tradition of the Jews - or that it is a myth to substantiate a falsehood of trinitarianism.

John 14 actually ends up showing an opposing.

Bible Gateway passage: John 14 - New International Version

Jesus Comforts His Disciples - “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and...

www.biblegateway.com

28 “You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Hope these help.

 

[YoursTrue]

And also if Jesus is God what need is there for a mediator between God and Man?

Perhaps someone who believes in a trinity can explain that. But then to make the explanation complete, he'd need to believe or understand what the Bible says, right? If he does not, any argument about yes or no wouldn't make sense. It would just be his opinion, as Jesus said, built on sand.