‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If John Doe chose to murder someone but a god didn't stopped him, stopped his choice, isn't that control and not free will?

If he made a free choice - and you say he did - then he has free will. "Free will" doesn't mean that we necessarily have to be successful in what we intend.

A crime like murder needs three elements to actually happen: motive, means & opportunity. "Free will" - or the lack thereof - is only a factor in motive.

If John Doe is prevented from murdering because, say, his gun misfires, how has his free will been impacted?

Edit: if a human being stops a murderer, is the murderer's free will affected?

 

[Etritonakin]

Technically, we have a free will to choose some things, but what we were given was a choice between life and death -blessing and cursing -and advised to choose life.

What if... initial prevention of horrible things meant the most beautiful things could not exist?

What if... initial prevention of horrible things meant God could not create others?

If we absolutely must experience and overcome such things -that which should never be -collectively and individually...
in order for it to be eradicated forever... then we either do experience it -or there would be no point to creating us.

If God knew it must first happen for it to be completely eradicated from us -but that the positive effects could remain -while the negative effects and even memories could be erased completely....

Would it HAVE BEEN worthwhile?

We must experience this -no matter if God exists or not.
We must be the thing that changes, because we do those things -we destroy ourselves, each other and the world.

So... would billions of eternally-happy and creative God-children be worthwhile if every last loss, tragedy and horror could be reversed and completely forgotten?
(The alternative being God not creating us to become such.)

As long as it is a memory, we are right to say it should not be -and that God should do something...
but if God erasing it later vs preventing it now is what he is doing -how he is handling it...
otherwise we could not exist and become like God...
will it HAVE BEEN worth it -seeing as it will no longer even be a memory?

Was what worth it?

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

 

[F1fan]

Your question is not valid because if religion holds the key to world peace, which I believe it does, then to give it up would be to throw world peace away as well.

Well you illustrate the reason why your approach won't work. You refuse to compromise and sacrifice for the sake of world peace.

And other theist you are asking to give up their religion for yours can believe THEIR beliefs will lead to peace or salvation or whatever their doctrine says. It's obvious there are atheists who agree with the notion of world peace, so they illustrate how you don't need Baha'i to attain that goal. If your real interest was world peace you would work towards that goal, and sacrifice your religious belief for that end. You won't even entertain the idea. Why should others?

The reason God didn’t send just one revelation is because we are ever progressing like in a school. We have to learn our abc before we can go to University so humanity couldn’t just instantly evolve overnight as we require generations to learn and evolve.

God should have foreseen the problems this natural and gradual approach would cause. It didn't, which means maybe this God isn't very good at being a creator.

But it's more likely we humans just evolved both genetically and culturally. And part of the evolution of our brains is inventing gods. And part of that creativity is a diverse set of superstition, ritual, and beliefs, of which some have survived into modernity and many others are extinct. The Baha'i beliefs are yet another evolution where there are adjustments to religious belief that builds on old ideas, and tries to present yet another revelation. Of course the explanation is that God has to manage revelations to the status of humanity. That is the only thing Baha'i could say. To a rational mind this still is not a good look for this God. It suggests it is as flawed and prone to errors as the average human. And let's be honest, this God is likely just another evolved version of human imagination.

It’s only natural that when humanity is faced with change it expresses fear of the unknown. At one time nationalism was not the norm and people were concerned but eventually adapted to it and now it’s the new normal.

Right, fear of the unknown, which is why humans are motivated to create new versions of religion, like Baha'i. Nationalism also is an example of humans who fear the future, so create beliefs and solutions that are expected to help stabilize society and/or the world. As we see this tribalism only causes more division. This division happens because many people are fearful to changes, and then react. There is a real lack of maturity and mental stability. Politics and religion are common ideologies that people retreat into for emotional security. This is why your approach should be to reject your own religion, which serves as an example of stability and maturity. If you need your religion to stand on your own two feet, then you can't argue against others needing theirs.

God does not force us to be peaceful or loving.

Almost as if it doesn't exist.

He gives us the choice to choose our own path.

Almost as if it doesn't exist.

You choose against because God doesn’t force you to be what you don’t want to be and that’s His way.

False. I'm not convinced anyone's belief in Gods is true, yours included. I can't be against imaginary beings. I can argue against YOUR claims about the God YOU think exists. Let's be honest, you can't present any facts or evidence that your idea of God exists outside of your imagination. I have no obligation to accept your claims, or anyone else's.

He offers effective solutions for our problems but we are free to refuse.

This is false. There is no evidence your claim here is true in reality.

Now you can claim that religious belief has helped some desperate people cope and be telling the truth. Religion isn't a God.

I still find it odd that a somewhat modern religion still refers to a God as male, as if it has a penis. This suggests to me that Baha'i just sloppily adopted previous ideas of God from the Abrahamic traditions. If Baha'i wanted to be different they should have changed this gender identity element.

But perhaps they left it in to make the religion more attractive to Muslims, Christians, Mormons, JW, Urantia folks, etc.

Before the world wars and Holocaust not to mention ongoing civil wars and genocide Baha’u’llah offered a solid solution that would have seen peace and will when it is adopted. But again, until we are serious about wanting peace conflict and wars will continue.

The guy did not do a very good job of it. Ideals seldom work in reality. And starting a new religion in a world full of them already as a solution? Been there, done that.

As a number of us have pointed out a non-religious approach would likely be more successful because asking people to quit their traditional religion is a hard sell. Even you won't do it for world peace, so there is the ultimate flaw that Baha’u’llah didn't think about.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What if... initial prevention of horrible things meant beautiful things could not exist?

What if... initial prevention of horrible things meant God could not create others?

If we absolutely must experience and overcome such things -that which should never be -collectively and individually...
in order for it to be eradicated forever... then we either do -or there would be no point to creating us.

If God knew it must happen -but that the positive effects could remain -while the negative effects and even memories could be erased completely....

Would it HAVE BEEN worthwhile?

We must experience this -no matter if God exists or not.
We must be the thing that changes, because we do those things -we destroy ourselves, each other and the world.

So... would billions of eternally-happy and creative God-children be worthwhile if every last loss, tragedy and horror could be reversed and completely forgotten?
(The alternative being God not creating us to become such.)

As long as it is a memory, we are right to say it should not be -and that God should do something...
but if God erasing it later vs preventing it now is what he is doing -how he is handling it...
otherwise we could not exist and become like God...
will it HAVE BEEN worth it -seeing as it will no longer even be a memory?

"Was what worth it?"

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Is this really what you believe?

If the existence of horrible things is justified by them - by some unknown mechanism - allowing beautiful things to exist, then oncologists and social workers cause horrible net harm.

 

[F1fan]

If John Doe chose to murder someone but a god didn't stopped him, stopped his choice, isn't that control and not free will?

So I would think to stop atrocities would involve control.

The thing is God created a world where a John Doe would be born, and then decide to murder someone.

We Never Know, I'll bet you will never murder anyone. I know I won't murder anyone. So if God just created humans that were like us, with our moral outlook, there would be almost no murders (there might be a few killings due to stress or disputes). But if this god exists that many claims does, IT created a world where these morally dubious people would be born in, and murders inevitable. So the fault lies with the God and it's sloppy creation standards.

Want fewer murders, create minds that aren't willing to murder. There is still free will, we can still commit murder, but the people are just too wise and laid back to let things get to a point where murder is their solution.

 

[JonSL]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

What we do not see is the long history of our lives, prior to this one. We don't live one life, but many.

Justice is displayed over the long course of many lives.

We see a "perfectly innocent" person murdered for no reason. And we wail against God for being so unjust.

However, what we don't see is that "perfectly innocent" person was a war criminal in a past life and getting an exacting of revenge.

Or, there are many other motivating reasons why apparent injustice looks so.

All the world's major religions either believe in reincarnation or did so.

The Christian church believed in reincarnation for the first 200 years of its existence.

Also, we have to remember that death is not complete destruction or the end. Death is just a transition from one life to another state of consciousness in the afterlife.

So, however horrible, a serial killer does not destroy someone for all time. What they do is cause some pain, for some period of time...after which the soul goes to the afterlife. In the afterlife the soul is rewarded with bliss that is far beyond our ability to imagine...making all of earth's sufferings seem like nothing.

We also have to remember that most violent murders take seconds. It is far, far, far more suffering to slowly die of cancer over many years, than it is to die by gunshot or many other violent murders.

Belief in God among the professional scientists is about the same as general belief in the population.

The Vatican science council has literally hundreds of members who are Nobel Prize winners in science. The Pope himself holds a Master's Degree in Chemistry.

Some of the greatest minds of history, including great scientists have believed in God, including: Ben Franklin, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, the innovative scientist Nikolai Tesla.

Fully professional scientific studies have confirmed the benefits of prayer, acupuncture, meditation, Hatha Yoga, and on.

ESP has been proven in various studies, as have the benefits of hypnotism.

 

[Etritonakin]

Is this really what you believe?

If the existence of horrible things is justified by them - by some unknown mechanism - allowing beautiful things to exist, then oncologists and social workers cause horrible net harm.

How so?

Not sure what you mean.

My point is that God would have had to have become responsible and accountable to self -to become perfect -in order to continue.
In order for us to continue -without messing everything up eternally or destroying everything -we must do the same.
God can't do that for us. He can help us along, but we must become its masters.

We do -or we die. There is no avoiding that -no matter how we might feel or think about it.
If he continually stopped it before it happened -we would never learn to do so.

There are many things which do great harm -but we tend to focus on the worst -and deny the rest are very harmful -even say we have the right -but experiencing absolute reality removes that -brings the lesson home.

I'm not saying anything horrible was specifically necessary -quite the opposite -it's necessary that none ever do such -so that none ever experience such -but it was basically inevitable that we would do such -and everyone is some part of the problem. We might say God should have stopped the very bad guys and gals -but how much of a small part do any of us play in atrocities? Should God end us now for buying clothes made by children in sweat shops -blood diamonds -fossil fuels -GMOs -pesticides -preservatives -assault weapons -nuclear weapons -or anything else that screws up the future for our children (unless God does something)?

It is part of our creation -the last and most important part -that we become perfect -by understanding it -realizing it experiencing it -choosing it.
Also important is the fact that we must be allowed to COLLECTIVELY SELF-DESTRUCT -TO KNOW THAT OUR WAYS DESTROY US AND ALL LIFE -God did not prevent that, either (though he will stop it just short of complete destruction of physical life) -so as to allow us to have an experience base from which to later choose otherwise... because we are responsible for positively affecting all.

 

[F1fan]

What we do not see is the long history of our lives, prior to this one. We don't live one life, but many.

Justice is displayed over the long course of many lives.

We see a "perfectly innocent" person murdered for no reason. And we wail against God for being so unjust.

However, what we don't see is that "perfectly innocent" person was a war criminal in a past life and getting an exacting of revenge.

Well, karma, or a God, should have made sure this kid never reached adulthood from the start. Why is the universe allowing/creating war criminals in the first place if it doesn't like them?

 

[JonSL]

Well, karma, or a God, should have made sure this kid never reached adulthood from the start. Why is the universe allowing/creating war criminals in the first place if it doesn't like them?

If you work hard to try to disprove the existence of God, you are going to come up with many convincing lines of argumentation.

However, they exclude lines of argumentation which support the existence of God.

Rhetoric as a logical construction can be an inquiry into the truth. Or it can just be a kind of game of "gotcha" like journalists will use to "catch" someone.

I could answer your question and will, but these kinds of inquiries can become a kind of "debating society" that is really must a competition of one's ability to construct argumentation. There is a difference between that an inquiry itself.

"Why is the universe allowing/creating war criminals in the first place if it doesn't like them?"

Well, it is a weighted or, you know, false question.

In a sense it is like saying, "when you molest children, why do you wear a green sweater?"

Well, ok...but if you have no evidence that someone is a child molester or owns a green sweater, the question is not supported.

Why is the universe allowing? Does the universe allow something?

Or, do you mean God.

So, because an activity exists, does not mean God allows it. That is a bit like saying there is a history classroom, in which the teacher is trying to get students to learn something. In that classroom is a demon kid who is planning to harm everyone possible. Is the teacher allowing the kid to be a demon, just because he runs the classroom?

What do people want? Proof that some random rocks blowing up billions of years ago is all there is? Do rocks write Beethoven symphonies?

We die, that's it, its over. Why would people even want that to be true, much less work hard to try and prove it?

If you want proof that God exists...fall in love with your own child. Then tell me we are just the by-product of a bunch of rocks exploding billions of years ago.

Logic is a game. There is more to life and reality than the play of lines of argumentation.

 

[Nakosis]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

Maybe this idea of a benevolent God is a myth. Certainly no guarantees God is going to have the interest of any individuals best interest at heart.
I suspect if a God exist, they don't care about the serial killer or who gets killed, who sufferers. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

What do we really know about any creator of the universe. Perhaps they don't care about what happens to us.
All of these prophets, just wishful thinking of a God care who cares anything about us.
In either case, it seems up to us to deal with suffering.

 

[QuestioningMind]

‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities."

My point was that God needs no excuses for allowing atrocities.
Why would God be responsible for atrocities He did not commit?
If God is not responsible for the atrocities why would God need to be EXCUSED for the atrocities?

My point continues to be that clearly you agree with the title.

 

[QuestioningMind]

My question is why would God should God step in and stop the evil that humans do? Give me one good reason why God should do that. Because God is omnipotent is not a reason because there is no reason to think that God should do everything He can do.

Okay, so the god you believe in obviously doesn't care to step in and stop the evil humans do. No one claims your god has any such obligation. You're even welcome to worship this god, if you actually think that such a god is worthy of worship. Personally, if your god has no interest in me or my fellow humans then I see absolutely no reason to have any interest in your god.

 

[QuestioningMind]

According to the Jewish concept on this. There are situations where this does happen. Because humans don't have the eyes to see how all of reality works and is interconnected we don't always know when someone's death is the result of things we don't see.

The problem you get into, w/o the bigger picture view is, "How far should this be taken?" For example, a group of school yard bullies verbally haress a kid on the school yard causing him to cry for an entire year. What should happen to them? Maybe would depend on some things that we can't see. For example, let's look at a few possibilities.

1. The bullied kid is able to overcome their verbal abuse and he becomes an inspiration for other bullied kids. He never knows that that he inspired someone.
   • In this scenario how should the bullies be punished?
   • Should the punishment of the bullies affect them in a way that also affects their parents and grandparents?
2. The bullied kid gets past the bullying but then himself becomes a bully to another kid who is weaker than him.
   • In this scenario should the bullies be punished?
   • Should the kid who was bullied who became a bully be punished?
   • What punishment is appropriate for each?
3. After being bullied for half a year the bullied kid gets fed up and attacks the bullies injuring them to the point where they are hospitalized.
   • Who should be be punished and how?
4. The bullied kid grows up and becomes stronger due to surviving the bullying. The bullies grow up and have normal lives and start families.
   • Should the bullies be punished before or after they have families and how?
5. The bullied kid can't take the verbal abuse and unfornately ends his life.
   • Should the bullies be punished and how?
   • If, seeing the big picture, it is known that if the bullied kid had lived he would have given birth to a son who would have saved 1,000 lives what should be the punishement now?
   • If, in seeing the big picture, it is known that if the bullied kid had lived he would have had a daughter that would have destroyed 1,000 lives what is the punishment now?

Don't you need to know more inforamation before a "lethal heart attack" is the method? Don't you need to know what are all of the effects as a whole to determine if that is the right method or even when to make something like that happen? For example, what if you given him that punishment before he bears a child that may be destined to choose to save 1,000 lives? Also, you have to consider that this punishment may be needed for a whole swath of people who themselves may feel like they don't deserve that as a punishment.

Further, why can't human beings create societies where such a person can't even get to the point of performing such a crime?



Again, you would need more details about what it means to bring any individual's life to an end at any given time. W/o the big picture you may think you are doing something when in reality you could be missing some key peices that would determine when something should be done or when something should be allowed to happen. Further, there is also the human factor. There are unfortunately some situations where children suffer because of the choices of their parents. Should certain be stopped from having children? It gets very complex and univesal.

Okay... so you take the 'It's all part of god's plan' point of view... that we'll never understand the big picture so we should just forget about it and move on. Thanks for sharing.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Because when God is reduced to a Santa Clause then there will be a long line of other people who want God to intervene in “free will” for a host of reasons. Everything from why did you let dear grandma die to winning the lottery, sprained ankles, didn’t get that job I prayed for to missed field goals with 1 second left on the clock.

And considering the fact that we keep letting violent criminals to return to society to reoffend again, God may ask us why we don’t use our free will to manage society better?

Interesting perspective... though it doesn't sound much different from how things are now, with believers constantly praying to their god to intervene.

 

[SkepticThinker]

When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.

I used to think about this all the time back when I was a kid who believed in God.

 

[QuestioningMind]

What we do not see is the long history of our lives, prior to this one. We don't live one life, but many.

Justice is displayed over the long course of many lives.

We see a "perfectly innocent" person murdered for no reason. And we wail against God for being so unjust.

However, what we don't see is that "perfectly innocent" person was a war criminal in a past life and getting an exacting of revenge.

Or, there are many other motivating reasons why apparent injustice looks so.

All the world's major religions either believe in reincarnation or did so.

The Christian church believed in reincarnation for the first 200 years of its existence.

Also, we have to remember that death is not complete destruction or the end. Death is just a transition from one life to another state of consciousness in the afterlife.

So, however horrible, a serial killer does not destroy someone for all time. What they do is cause some pain, for some period of time...after which the soul goes to the afterlife. In the afterlife the soul is rewarded with bliss that is far beyond our ability to imagine...making all of earth's sufferings seem like nothing.

We also have to remember that most violent murders take seconds. It is far, far, far more suffering to slowly die of cancer over many years, than it is to die by gunshot or many other violent murders.

Belief in God among the professional scientists is about the same as general belief in the population.

The Vatican science council has literally hundreds of members who are Nobel Prize winners in science. The Pope himself holds a Master's Degree in Chemistry.

Some of the greatest minds of history, including great scientists have believed in God, including: Ben Franklin, Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, the innovative scientist Nikolai Tesla.

Fully professional scientific studies have confirmed the benefits of prayer, acupuncture, meditation, Hatha Yoga, and on.

ESP has been proven in various studies, as have the benefits of hypnotism.

We see a "perfectly innocent" person murdered for no reason. And we wail against God for being so unjust.

However, what we don't see is that "perfectly innocent" person was a war criminal in a past life and getting an exacting of revenge.

So you don't believe that anyone actually commits any immoral acts. The child murderer is simply exacting revenge on god's behalf for some wrongful act the seemingly innocent child previously committed. But that sounds as if the child murderer would have no reason to be punished in any future life, since they were only doing what god wanted them to do. And wouldn't it also mean that the child who committed the 'war crimes' shouldn't be punished either, since the people the war criminal killed deserved it for some past offense as well?

This god is creating people for the soul purpose of exacting god's punishments on others and then turning around and punishing them for performing their function. If people are being punished for performing vile acts that god wants and expects them to do, that doesn't sound like anything close to justice to me.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Maybe this idea of a benevolent God is a myth. Certainly no guarantees God is going to have the interest of any individuals best interest at heart.
I suspect if a God exist, they don't care about the serial killer or who gets killed, who sufferers. To think otherwise is just wishful thinking.

What do we really know about any creator of the universe. Perhaps they don't care about what happens to us.
All of these prophets, just wishful thinking of a God care who cares anything about us.
In either case, it seems up to us to deal with suffering.

If even half the things claimed about god in the bible are true then I'd have to agree with you. Hardly a benevolent being.

 

[Trailblazer]

What standard are you using to say that God is good? It seems like you're saying that God is exempt from any standard of goodness.

I know that God is good because that is in Scriptures. Scriptures are the only way to know what God is like.

God does not have to measure up to human standards, what humans consider good. God is good by His nature.

 

[Trailblazer]

My point continues to be that clearly you agree with the title.

And my point continues to be that I clearly do not agree with the title because God does not need any excuses for allowing atrocities.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, so the god you believe in obviously doesn't care to step in and stop the evil humans do.

Why should God should God step in and stop the evil that humans do?
Give me one good reason why God should do that.

'Because God is omnipotent' is not a good reason. God could also wipe out the entire earth in one split second, do you think God should do that too? Why then should God use His power to rescue humans from their own evil behaviors?

No one claims your god has any such obligation. You're even welcome to worship this god, if you actually think that such a god is worthy of worship. Personally, if your god has no interest in me or my fellow humans then I see absolutely no reason to have any interest in your god.

It is a non sequitur to conclude that God has no interest in you or your fellow humans because God does not act like Superman. God is not Superman, God is God. God shows His caring by sending Messengers who reveal teachings and laws. If everyone followed those teachings and laws there would be no evil in the world.