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Featured ‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022.

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  1. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    When I ask believers why their god would allow a serial killer to abuse and murder a dozen innocent children over the course of his lifetime, I am often told that god is helpless to intervene because he gave us all ‘free will’ and that to intervene would be a violation of that ‘free will’. It sounds reasonable at first glance, but this argument doesn’t hold up under scrutiny.

    I agree that if god were to snap his metaphorical fingers and magically take away the serial killer’s perverse desires or temporarily paralyze him any time he attempted to commit a wicked act that it would be a violation of free will. But why doesn’t god just snap his metaphorical fingers and give the guy a lethal heat attack? Obviously god deciding when a person’s life will come to an end isn’t a violation of their free will otherwise every single person who has ever died unwillingly has had their free will violated, which pretty much includes everyone except for people who commit suicide, sacrifice their lives for others, or are experiencing unendurable suffering.

    So after this guy kills his first innocent child why doesn’t god decide to bring his life to an end? Even if god wanted to give the guy the chance to repent and seek forgiveness for his sins, why didn’t god give him a heart attack after the second innocent victim or the third? Why would a loving and caring god allow this maniac to kill a dozen little children and end up dying peacefully in his sleep in his late 80’s?


    It obviously has nothing to do with god being helpless to intervene because of the killer’s free will.
     
    #1 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
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  2. The Hammer

    The Hammer Wyrd Walker
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    The Gods have their own problems and concerns, and it's typically not us flesh and blood Mortals.
     
    #2 The Hammer, Jan 9, 2022
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  3. SomeRandom

    SomeRandom Still learning to be wise
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    That’s a very Abrahamic approach. Many religions seem content to see evil in the world as just evil existing. To be penalised in the future by a deity of some description. In other words, reality is what it is and it would be pointless to complain about it. Why not actively try to discourage or prevent crime? God gave us a brain, why not use it to solve our own issues?

    Of course I’m not particularly theistically inclined. Merely playing devils advocate, so to speak
     
    #3 SomeRandom, Jan 9, 2022
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  4. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    Perhaps it's more about karma than it is God and free will.
     
    #4 SalixIncendium, Jan 9, 2022
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  5. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    That's a good OP, and it's very thoughtful, in my opinion. You and I seem to be thinking the same thing. I started this thread, Is it reasonable to believe in a 'loving, merciful' God? just the other day with a similar OP. FWIW, I agree with your assessment.
     
    #5 Sgt. Pepper, Jan 9, 2022
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  6. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Then you agree that the 'free will' argument doesn't hold up.
     
    #6 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
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  7. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    God has to be complete in the Universe and that's impossible without creating evil aspects to it as well as good...

    Forget it! You all won't understand!
     
    #7 robocop (actually), Jan 9, 2022
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  8. Brian2

    Brian2 Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you want God to stop us from doing anything evil.
    That would make it hard for God to judge us. All we would have to say is that we did not do anything evil. Then God would say that He has stopped us. Then we would say that we wouldn't have done it anyway.
    OR maybe you are just saying that God is evil if He exists.
     
    #8 Brian2, Jan 9, 2022
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  9. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Assuming you are referring to Christians, those who accept free will need it to exist to keep everything together, because without free will it means their god isn't so loving and merciful after all.
    And they rarely are any good at debating for the existence of free will.
     
    #9 Shadow Wolf, Jan 9, 2022
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  10. Shadow Wolf

    Shadow Wolf Rival's Wife

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    Anyone who looks upon a woman and lusts after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:28
    Sounds like Jehovah judges not just our actions but our thoughts as well. And if Jehovah is omniscient, why does he need us to act bad to judge us? He already knows what is in our heart.
     
    #10 Shadow Wolf, Jan 9, 2022
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  11. Sgt. Pepper

    Sgt. Pepper RF's resident Beatlemaniac. ☮ and ❤

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    Try us. We might surprise you. I'm an ex-Christian, after being a Christian for 31 years. That being said, I'm well aware of the usual Christianese that most Christians use to justify God's atrocious behavior. I doubt there's something you will say that I don't already know, to be honest. Why do you believe in God? 1 Peter 3:15 says, "Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect." So, will you answer my question?
     
    #11 Sgt. Pepper, Jan 9, 2022
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  12. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    If no one had free will, would we all be like robots?
     
    #12 We Never Know, Jan 9, 2022
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  13. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    So you agree that the free will argument doesn't hold water.
     
    #13 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
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  14. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    I already answered your question. Like I thought, you didn't understand. That's why I was so frustrated before you even replied.
     
    #14 robocop (actually), Jan 9, 2022
  15. robocop (actually)

    robocop (actually) Well-Known Member
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    Well, I don't know if members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe in free will,

    but personally I don't believe in Free Will or time.

    I do however believe in God and in consciousness.
     
    #15 robocop (actually), Jan 9, 2022
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  16. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how you could have possibly heard that from what I wrote. I never suggested that god should prevent us from being able to do wrong. I'm asking why didn't god judge this serial killer to be unworthy of being allowed to continue to exist with his other creations after the third or fourth senseless murder instead of letting him kill 12 innocent children and die in his sleep after nearly 9 decades.
     
    #16 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
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  17. Lazy Old Devil

    Lazy Old Devil Member

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    Yes, if Gods existed then it's likely that they wouldn't be concerned with individual humans and what they get up to. But then, if The Gods don't care about us flesh and blood mortals, then why would us flesh and blood mortals care about The Gods?
     
    #17 Lazy Old Devil, Jan 9, 2022
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  18. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    Why do you ask? I'm certainly not advocating for there being no free will.
     
    #18 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
  19. QuestioningMind

    QuestioningMind Well-Known Member

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    If you don't believe in free will then clearly you don't think that free will is a valid argument for why god allows atrocities.
     
    #19 QuestioningMind, Jan 9, 2022
  20. We Never Know

    We Never Know Well-Known Member

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    I'm just simply asking.
    If people had no free will to chose, who would tell them...for example what their favorite color is? What their favorite food is?

    People would be like programmed robots awaiting to be told orders.
     
    #20 We Never Know, Jan 9, 2022
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