‘Free will’ is not an excuse for God allowing atrocities.

[PruePhillip]

No, it doesn't. Larger trends and statistics show we are indeed more feed, better watered, have better access to healthcare, and we don't make war nearly as much.

If that number is true how can you believe society isn't getting better when today young men and women aren't often dying anymore, especially due to war?

I see your point.
But cleaner water, vaccines, better nutrition, cleanliness etc isn't the issue.
Watched a little video last week about what it would be like to take a walk
through Tudor London in the 1600's - it staggered me, the filth and poverty.

Science, trade, co-operation, rule of law etc didn't come from religion. And
these things can quickly evaporate if we go to war again, like what could
happen in the Ukraine or Taiwan. Then we are back to that horrible figure
of 25-30% of all young males.

btw - that 25-30 figure seems to hold steady across the most continents.
Life back then was deadly and short. In those societies it's easy to understand
why young girls prized warrior boys and not rich boys.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

btw - that 25-30 figure seems to hold steady across the most continents.
Life back then was deadly and short. In those societies it's easy to understand
why young girls prized warrior boys and not rich boys.

So, are you unable to cite this?
Even back then people lived longer than what most people today tend to think (Sparta was ruled by an elder council who lived a life a military service), but chances were significantly higher of being killed in an act of violence or war.
And many societies had women warriors. The Norse, the Celts, the Appache, many cultures produced fierce warrior women such as Boudicca (Celt), Fu Hao (Chinese), or Artemisia (Persian).
Amd even the wealthy have long had an advantage on resource security, except back then marriage for love and choosing our spouse wasn't really a thing. The male warlords, chieftans, kings, whatever the society had would often just pick whatever women he wanted. Generally marriages were prearranged by parents.

Science, trade, co-operation, rule of law etc didn't come from religion.

Trade has always been around. Cooperation was around before the homo genus. Rule of law, to some societies this does come from religion. Many places, however, it comes from centuries of philosophical ponderings and improving on what came before (such as how "trial by jury of peers" began as a right for nobility and has come to apply to all citizens). Science though did grow out of religion. The Egyptians and Mayans had an impressive knowledge of the movements of the Cosmic bodies for having no telescopes or Newtonian physics, and these were done as religious ceremonies. As science became formalized it was often the goal of scientists to learn about and understand god's creation.

 

[PruePhillip]

So, are you unable to cite this?
Even back then people lived longer than what most people today tend to think (Sparta was ruled by an elder council who lived a life a military service), but chances were significantly higher of being killed in an act of violence or war.
And many societies had women warriors. The Norse, the Celts, the Appache, many cultures produced fierce warrior women such as Boudicca (Celt), Fu Hao (Chinese), or Artemisia (Persian).
Amd even the wealthy have long had an advantage on resource security, except back then marriage for love and choosing our spouse wasn't really a thing. The male warlords, chieftans, kings, whatever the society had would often just pick whatever women he wanted. Generally marriages were prearranged by parents.

Trade has always been around. Cooperation was around before the homo genus. Rule of law, to some societies this does come from religion. Many places, however, it comes from centuries of philosophical ponderings and improving on what came before (such as how "trial by jury of peers" began as a right for nobility and has come to apply to all citizens). Science though did grow out of religion. The Egyptians and Mayans had an impressive knowledge of the movements of the Cosmic bodies for having no telescopes or Newtonian physics, and these were done as religious ceremonies. As science became formalized it was often the goal of scientists to learn about and understand god's creation.

We were talking about hunter gatherer societies.
Early civilization could be quite brutal, but at least civilization (city dwelling) tempered man's violent tendencies somewhat.

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage - Keeley, Lawrence H., Keeley Lawrence H. | 9780195119121 | Amazon.com.au | Books

 

[DNB]

But what if it is true, ever thought of that?
I do not believe in the Christian hell but rather I believe that hell is a state of the soul that is distant from God, and sometimes I worry about ending up there since I am not God's biggest fan, like @DNB.

...meaning, that we don't love Him as we should, and as He deserves? Or, we question HIs existence, or integrity and holiness?
For me, the former: yes, the latter: no.

 

[DNB]

Then why does he command it? Why does he make it a death penalty to know him and then worship other gods?
And how is it justified if he annihilates us?

A child who disrespects their parents, will be punished accordingly, and deservingly. Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We were talking about hunter gatherer societies.

Yeah. A lot of those groups were frequently warring. But that didn't stop with the development of city states, as Mongolian, Roman, Persian, England and the Ottoman marched on with war to build an empire, while those such as the Greek city states as well warred against eachother. The Romans called it civilization, Tacitus called it their slavery.
But today it's been nearly a century sense Europe has had any war amongst each other. That's very significant and strong evidence to the claim the world is getting less violent. Decentralized power had more to do with this than the development of permanent settlements.

 

[DNB]

It's not realistic. It's doom and gloom.

It's joyous news, our sins are forgiven, and we're going to a better place. Maybe you're missing my point?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A child who disrespects their parents, will be punished accordingly, and deservingly. Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!

Deserving entirely depends on the offense and punishment. Often times the punishment is too much and way too harsh for the crime. Like an eternity of damnation for a short life of sin.
And it's quite sad you think I deserve immediate death. The feeling is certainly not mutual.

 

[Ashoka]

A child who disrespects their parents, will be punished accordingly, and deservingly. Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!

Thousands of Christians before you held the same belief. It was called the crusades and the inquisition. Kill those who don't believe. They deserve it. This is how fundamentalism spreads. It's sick.

It's joyous news, our sins are forgiven, and we're going to a better place. Maybe you're missing my point?

Joyous? How can I possibly find joy when people are supposedly burning in hell?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's joyous news, our sins are forgiven, and we're going to a better place. Maybe you're missing my point?

How can it possibly be better when we're supposed to accept that we're a nasty, evil person deserving of death? What's joyous about eternal suffering.
My better place was leaving that and seeing the world for as it is.

 

[We Never Know]

A child who disrespects their parents, will be punished accordingly, and deservingly. Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!

"Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!"

Where does the bible say that?

 

[DNB]

Deserving entirely depends on the offense and punishment. Often times the punishment is too much and way too harsh for the crime. Like an eternity of damnation for a short life of sin.
And it's quite sad you think I deserve immediate death. The feeling is certainly not mutual.

We all deserve death, I've said it 1,000,000 times.

 

[Ashoka]

We all deserve death, I've said it 1,000,000 times.

No one deserves death, DNB. What we as humans need is compassion. Your God doesn't offer that, though. He offers hell for those who believe differently. That's horror.

 

[We Never Know]

We all deserve death, I've said it 1,000,000 times.

Time takes everyone whether they deserve it or not.

 

[DNB]

Thousands of Christians before you held the same belief. It was called the crusades and the inquisition. Kill those who don't believe. They deserve it. This is how fundamentalism spreads. It's sick.



Joyous? How can I possibly find joy when people are supposedly burning in hell?

No one takes judgment into their own hands. All devout and sincere Christian denounce the crusades and inquisition, and disassociate themselves with those nefarious events, and all those who were behind them.

No one is burning in hell, it requires wisdom to understand that it is their minds and consciences that are burning - their pain is self-inflicted. All they had to do was say sorry, and thank-you (repentance & grace). But, instead they insulted both their Creator and their saviour. All that God will do to them is give them what they wanted - ostracization from His son's Kingdom. Now, they are full of regret. That's the burning.

 

[DNB]

How can it possibly be better when we're supposed to accept that we're a nasty, evil person deserving of death? What's joyous about eternal suffering.
My better place was leaving that and seeing the world for as it is.

God offered mercy, nothing wicked about that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We all deserve death, I've said it 1,000,000 times.

I know you've said this many times. But that's not understanding, empathy or love.

 

[DNB]

"Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!"

Where does the bible say that?

Are you joking?

 

[We Never Know]

Are you joking?

I ask again....

Where does the bible say this?

""Those who defy their Creator, and/or insult Him by paying allegiance to worthless idols, deserves to die, immediately!"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

No one takes judgment into their own hands. All devout and sincere Christian denounce the crusades and inquisition, and disassociate themselves with those nefarious events, and all those who were behind them.

No one is burning in hell, it requires wisdom to understand that it is their minds and consciences that are burning - their pain is self-inflicted. All they had to do was say sorry, and thank-you (repentance & grace). But, instead they insulted both their Creator and their saviour. All that God will do to them is give them what they wanted - ostracization from His son's Kingdom. Now, they are full of regret. That's the burning.

That makes no sense. To me being a Christian was hell. But I left that all behind and life got easier and I have no regrets. I've not looked back once or second guessed myself. I don't want anything to do with Jehovah.