‘Holy War’: Thousands Against Atheists’ "Attack" on Nativity

[godnotgod]

I don't know, Christmas attacks in Nigeria make me even more sick then a pathetic ******* contest between Atheist and Christians

A lot of people in America are wussies (and I am not talking about you Skwim, but about the Atheist and Christians whining over a stupid nativity scene)

You don't get it: this is NOT about a silly nativity scene! It is about trashing the First Amendment idea of Separation of Church and State, and establishing a legal theocracy, so the Christian religious fanatics can have a ruling hand in every aspect of our lives. What that boils down to is any excuse to watch you, interrogate you, put you in prison, and generally control the human spirit. That is what The Inquisition was all about. This is a crucial issue and should not be treated lightly. This is a world-wide trend by the Christian evangelist community with the hidden agenda for world-wide control. A Hindu woman I once knew taught me a very important lesson. All she had to do was to say: "the cross and the dollar", and I knew immediatly what she meant: get this: The Christian agenda is a Trojan Horse, which first clandestinely invades a country with its missionaries to soften the minds of the people, destroy their native religion as 'evil', to create a docile and malleable population which the monied interests can now control for their purposes, with false promises of jobs and progress, while ripping them off of their land and resources, and manipulating them via their labor.

Currently, Christian missionaries in India, for example, attend Hindu cremation ceremonies and shout obscenities about the Hindu gods into the faces of the grieving families, children present.

In Mexico, which is already dominated by the Catholic Church and its dogma, the evil Monsanto Corp. has already destroyed all of Mexico's native corn seed varieties, by planting their own genetically engineered 'killer seeds", which prevent the germination of any future native seeds. Then the genetically altered hybrid corn seeds are planted which dominate the market. This is all part of the NAFTA agreement. Under this evil law, American corn growers dump tons of cheap American corn on the Mexican market, driving out the native Indio farmers, whose some 2 million displaced workers go north as illegal immigrants in search of jobs. In part, we created a chunk of the illegal immigration 'problem' ourselves via NAFTA. In order to appease corps like Monsanto, the Mexican government did away with homesteading rights it allowed to native Mayan Indians, selling their lands to the corporations. That is the reason behind the Chiapas uprising led by subcomandante Marcos.

Recently, however, the Mexican government, apparently having brought problems wrought by Monsanto to light, has issued a temporary ban on Monsanto's operations there.

Monsanto is doing much the same evil in India and Africa, enslaving their farmers, who, in many cases, have committed suicide due to their inability to pay Monsanto the debt they owe for Monsanto fertilizer and equipment, which is required to grow their patented hybrid seeds.

This is just a glimpse as to how religion and business interests, sanctioned by government, work hand in glove to control native peoples.

Wake up!

 

[Renji]

Oh dear, look at how two sides oppose because of just a simple display,

 

[Reverend Rick]

Odd how the Christian right so vociferously defends a Christian religious display on public property while so vehemently opposing a Muslim community center, on private property, a few blocks away from the World Trade Center site.

Not all of the religious right holds this position.

 

[Revoltingest]

Oh dear, look at how two sides oppose because of just a simple display,

A simple display + law + politics + taxpayer funds = legitimate argument

 

[godnotgod]

Oh dear, look at how two sides oppose because of just a simple display,

I repeat: the issue is NOT about the Nativity scene; it is about legalizing a theocracy as a means of control by a single religion. Christianity has been pushing their 'Christian Nation' agenda for years. Their entire problem is with themselves, as they are basically insecure. If they were truly secure in their beliefs, there would be no need for this aggression. They think that by getting themselves into political power that their security issues will somehow be solved, but that will only make things worse for themselves, unbeknownst to them.

 

[godnotgod]

Not all of the religious right holds this position.

True, but all they need is enough of them to do so, and then to put themselves into a position of political power, which is exactly what the Nazis did. No comparison you say? Let us not forget the Christian-executed Inquisition, OK?

 

[godnotgod]

A simple display + law + politics + taxpayer funds = legitimate argument

Well put and to the point!

 

[Reverend Rick]

True, but all they need is enough of them to do so, and then to put themselves into a position of political power, which is exactly what the Nazis did. No comparison you say? Let us not forget the Christian-executed Inquisition, OK?

No not OK. :no:

People are more complex than just being religious or non-religious.

I fail to see the logic of your arguement. Basically we should throw out the political system because of the Nazi's?

It has been my experience that ANY TIME some one makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazi's, their statement is diluted at best.

People are not just Theists or Non- theists. They are also citizens who understand that you have to support all religions if you truly want freedom of religion.

People are way more complex than just being a member of any one group of people.

Your logic involves discourse between different people and beliefs.

 

[godnotgod]

No not OK. :no:

People are more complex than just being religious or non-religious.

I fail to see the logic of your arguement. Basically we should throw out the political system because of the Nazi's?

You have missed my point: On the contrary, we should preserve the First Amendment because of group of religious zealots who want to override it as a means of pursuing their religious agendas.

It has been my experience that ANY TIME some one makes a comparison to Hitler or the Nazi's, their statement is diluted at best.

Good point. A few words cannot possibly describe the reality of what the Nazis pulled off. The important thing in my alluding to them is the fact that they pulled it off with a small band of men, and they did this by exploiting the fears and paranoia of the general populace, in exactly the same way the Christians are exploiting the current national hysteria, and in exactly the way the perpetrators of the Inquisition did so. Once in power, the Nazis then proceeded to dehumanize the Jews by projecting the national shadow of untermenschen (ie; 'sub-human') onto them, thereby rendering them expendable. The Inquisitors literally demonized the heretics they tortured and murdered.

People are not just Theists or Non- theists. They are also citizens who understand that you have to support all religions if you truly want freedom of religion.

People are way more complex than just being a member of any one group of people.

Your logic involves discourse between different people and beliefs.

My logic is that your logic becomes irrelevant when such groups actually take power, because it only takes enough of them to convince the larger populace of the veracity of their delusional thinking. Recently, a certain George Bush and his cabal did just that, when they lied to the American people about certain WMD's, a lie the American people fell for, hook, line, and sinker. They fell for it because they were caught in the grips of a national hysteria brought on by 9/11, their general ignorance about Arab culture, and a general animosity of a religious nature that was already in place. By the time they found out the real truth, it was too late.

 

[Reverend Rick]

My logic is that your logic becomes irrelevant when such groups actually take power, because it only takes enough of them to convince the larger populace of the veracity of their delusional thinking. Recently, a certain George Bush and his cabal did just that, when they lied to the American people about certain WMD's, a lie the American people fell for, hook, line, and sinker. They fell for it because they were caught in the grips of a national hysteria brought on by 9/11, their general ignorance about Arab culture, and a general animosity of a religious nature that was already in place. By the time they found out the real truth, it was too late.

You speak in absolutes which makes you absolutely wrong. My only point was I was not against the activity center near the twin towers.

I'm trying real hard to follow your logic. Are you saying that the majority should not be represented? Congress voted to go to Iraq, they could have stopped George Bush, but that would have been by majority as well.

At best the majority is a double edged sword that can be a good thing or a bad thing. The truth be told, it is both.

What system would you propose that would work better than the current system we have?

 

[godnotgod]

You speak in absolutes which makes you absolutely wrong. My only point was I was not against the activity center near the twin towers.

????

I'm trying real hard to follow your logic. Are you saying that the majority should not be represented? Congress voted to go to Iraq, they could have stopped George Bush, but that would have been by majority as well.

At best the majority is a double edged sword that can be a good thing or a bad thing. The truth be told, it is both.

Maybe you are not taking the time to read my explanation? Even Congress was caught in the national hysteria I referred to. Reason and Logic are out the window. No, Congress could NOT have stopped Bush, because they were in the throes of fear, paranoia, hatred/revenge and ignorance. We continue to be caught in and act out of, hysteria and fear. A majority driven by fear and operating under the color of authority cannot possibly take the right actions. You see. My logic is telling you that, in the case in question, that it only takes a handful of religious zealot activists to convince the majority of people, under the right conditions, that their agenda is what is needed to 'fix' a problem that is non-existent. Get it?

What system would you propose that would work better than the current system we have?

The problem is not with the system, but with our consciousness. With the right kind of consciousness, the system can be easily transformed to serve the needs of human beings. Currently, human beings serve the needs of the system.



*****

 

[JMorris]

what about Atheist who want to be "free from religion". All in all, both groups are a bunch of over dramatic idiots who should focus on more important issues.

i know right? silly atheists. wanting to live in a secular democracy where no religious group is shown preferential treatment.

personally as a non-christian, when i see christian idols outside a courthouse, it really fills me with confidence that justice is blind. certainly not intimidating at all.

 

[Father Heathen]

Nothing wrong with a nativity scene as long as it isn't on goverment property and/or funded by tax payer dollars. You know those supporting the nativity scene would squeal aloud and flail about if it were a display of a religion other than their own.

 

[JMorris]

Nothing wrong with a nativity scene as long as it isn't on goverment property and/or funded by tax payer dollars. You know those supporting the nativity scene would squeal aloud and flail about if it were a display of a religion other than their own.

you mean to say that theres a trend of hypocrisy among christians?? noooooooooo

you know christians are so superior to everyone else they deserve preferential treatment. they really do.

 

[Reverend Rick]

????

See post #25

Maybe you are not taking the time to read my explanation?

Oh, I am taking my time, that is not the issue. :no:

Even Congress was caught in the national hysteria I referred to. Reason and Logic are out the window.

No Democrats where afraid of looking unpatriotic and supporting the President after we where attacked for the first time sice the 40's. Never mind Iraq had nothing to do with this.

No, Congress could NOT have stopped Bush,

Oh but they could. :yes: They just did not do this. :no:

because they were in the throes of fear, paranoia, hatred/revenge and ignorance. We continue to be caught in and act out of, hysteria and fear. A majority driven by fear and operating under the color of authority cannot possibly take the right actions.

Why?

You see. My logic is telling you that, in the case in question, that it only takes a handful of religious zealot activists to convince the majority of people, under the right conditions, that their agenda is what is needed to 'fix' a problem that is non-existent. Get it?

I understand what you are saying, I just believe if we had better leadership it would not happen.

The problem is not with the system, but with our consciousness. With the right kind of consciousness, the system can be easily transformed to serve the needs of human beings. Currently, human beings serve the needs of the system.



*****

Currently the system did not fail us, our representives did.

SO WHAT IS YOUR SUGGESTION FOR IMPROVEMENT?

 

[Reverend Rick]

Nothing wrong with a nativity scene as long as it isn't on goverment property and/or funded by tax payer dollars. You know those supporting the nativity scene would squeal aloud and flail about if it were a display of a religion other than their own.

I would say, "Cool". I love freedom of expression. You may never know, people may even learn some cultural diversity, Oh my!

 

[Reverend Rick]

you mean to say that theres a trend of hypocrisy among christians?? noooooooooo

you know christians are so superior to everyone else they deserve preferential treatment. they really do.

Humbug! The real deal is when 95% of local citizens are in ANY certain group, they should not have their parade urinated on because of one or two ruffled feathers. :no:

If the other 5% has a problem not being represented, do something about it.

I would love to see Jewish displays more often for example.

The bottom line is, 1,000 people should be able to pray some place in spite of the chance of one person being offended.

I can not imagine being offended if I was the one person.

You do not have a right to not be offended.

 

[Draka]

Personally, when I read about this or watch that video...the stupidity of it all almost hurts me. Honestly, there are simpler ways. If someone takes issue with the Nativity scene on government property, there are easier ways to handle it. Make a formal request for a display of another religion to be put up alongside it. Maybe even a few different religions. If any of them are denied, then the Nativity would legally have to be removed. Now honestly, think about it, if the people up in arms about supporting the Nativity are all about Christianity then do you think they are willing to have displays belonging to several other religions around it? Probably not. The point is, instead of just harping on about removing the Nativity, the opposing side should have requested other displays. If those were denied, then they had legal ground for removal and cause for complaint. If the other displays were put up...then there is no real issue and just shut up.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would say, "Cool". I love freedom of expression. You may never know, people may even learn some cultural diversity, Oh my!

Don't be coy. You know damn well most conservative christians would throw a fit if another religion was being promoted on government land and/or funded by tax payer money. The point is that no religion should be endorced or given preferential treatment by the government, and for very good reason.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Personally, when I read about this or watch that video...the stupidity of it all almost hurts me. Honestly, there are simpler ways. If someone takes issue with the Nativity scene on government property, there are easier ways to handle it. Make a formal request for a display of another religion to be put up alongside it. Maybe even a few different religions. If any of them are denied, then the Nativity would legally have to be removed. Now honestly, think about it, if the people up in arms about supporting the Nativity are all about Christianity then do you think they are willing to have displays belonging to several other religions around it? Probably not. The point is, instead of just harping on about removing the Nativity, the opposing side should have requested other displays. If those were denied, then they had legal ground for removal and cause for complaint. If the other displays were put up...then there is no real issue and just shut up.

Exactly right.