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Did Jesus say he was God???

FerventGodSeeker

FerventGodSeeker

Believer
laws28186 said:
So how do we know that God didnt do the things through Jesus as he did through Moses.
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First of all, I think forgiveness of sins, which Jesus Christ did, is a far greater miracle than parting a sea.
In Mark 2:10, Jesus was being questioned by some scribes as to how He could declare a paralyzed man's sins forgiven, and He said, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins..." Clearly Christ did, and still does, have that authority. If we believe (as I hope you do) that only God can forgive someone's sins, and we see here that Jesus forgives someone's sins, then what would that make Jesus?
 
fascist_crusader

fascist_crusader

Member
Yet God the father says that there is but one God, there never was or will be any more gods, and that none are equal to him. The logical conclusion: Jesus is God the father in flesh.
 
H

Harvster

Member
Muffled said:
Those who taught you are massively confused. They are not able to discern between the temporality of the flesh and the eternality of the spirit.
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So you are implying that the church fathers and numerous theologians throughout the centuries were wrong? How interesting.
When Jesus says that He existed before Abraham, He is not referring to the body but Christian theologians have trouble seeing this and think that any viewing of God before Jesus must have included the body of Jesus.
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Actually when Christ stated that he was stating that he was God, which is why the Pharisies acted like they did. I do not however, nor to my knowledge any theologians, beleive that Christ apearing before his human form was infact the same human form.
The truth is that God can inhabit any body He wishes and is able to create that body fully mature. The visit by God to Abraham before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is a case in point.
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Incorrect, hence we have the word incarnate. No where in the bible does it state such, but I could be proven wrong. For God to inhabit a human he must let go of his Godly attributes as the human is not intended to be God. These atributes been all the omni's.
The resurrected Jesus is not in the exact same body that He was in before that body died.
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On this I have to agree. Christ when resurrected had a glorified body hence his ability to appear in a locked room fully flesh.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
fascist_crusader said:
Yet God the father says that there is but one God, there never was or will be any more gods, and that none are equal to him. The logical conclusion: Jesus is God the father in flesh.
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So Jesus (God the Father in flesh) prayed to His God, who was in Heaven. But He was apparently really here on earth. He asked Himself to remove the bitter cup. And when He hung on the cross, He wondered why He'd forsaken Himself. He asked Himself to forgive those who had nailed Him to the cross. He died, commending His spirit into His own hands. After His resurrection, He told His Apostles that He was greater than Himself. He said that He was going to be with Himself in Heaven, even though He was supposedly already there. And today, He sits on His own right hand. Someday, He will give Himself the authority to judge us. I think I've got it now!
 
fascist_crusader

fascist_crusader

Member
So Jesus (God the Father in flesh) prayed to His God, who was in Heaven. But He was apparently really here on earth. He asked Himself to remove the bitter cup. And when He hung on the cross, He wondered why He'd forsaken Himself. He asked Himself to forgive those who had nailed Him to the cross. He died, commending His spirit into His own hands. After His resurrection, He told His Apostles that He was greater than Himself. He said that He was going to be with Himself in Heaven, even though He was supposedly already there. And today, He sits on His own right hand. Someday, He will give Himself the authority to judge us. I think I've got it now!
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Unlike the God of mormonism the God of the bible is everywhere at once, therefore yes, the christ aspect of God can be at the "right hand(which is metaphorical)" of father God, can speak with the Father, and can choose to humble himself to human form, which made him submissive rto the father, because he was a man.
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
fascist_crusader said:
Unlike the God of mormonism the God of the bible is everywhere at once, therefore yes, the christ aspect of God can be at the "right hand(which is metaphorical)" of father God, can speak with the Father, and can choose to humble himself to human form, which made him submissive rto the father, because he was a man.
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Whatever. It sounds like one gigantic contradiction to me, but to each his own.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
laws28186 said:
So how do we know that God didnt do the things through Jesus as he did through Moses.
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There is no significant difference. It is simply one of many indications. If a man can perform miracles it is by the power of God working through him.

Moses sinned, Jesus did not.

Moses struck the rock in disobedience to God who told him to speak to the rock to have it gush water.

I know people will want a reference but I don't have the Bible on the new computer just on the old one and that one isn't networked to the internet yet. So I will do the best I can from memory: Paul says somewhere that Jesus is without sin. Jesus asked in John
"Who convicts me of sin?"

I suppose this is relevant to Jesus calling Humself good when ony God is good.
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
lew0049 said:
DreGod - The evidence for Jesus claiming he is God is found within the scriptures. Aside from the miracles that He preformed, in NO way does he try to seperate Himself from God - instead He says that He is God in the flesh.

When Jesus is quoted as saying "Son of Man", this is not primarily referring to Jesus' humanity. Instead, it is a direct allusion to Daniel 7:13-7:14. The "Son of Man" is a figure that would come at the end of the world to judge mankind and rule forever. In essence, the "Son of Man" truly indicates a claim of divinity, someone who has universal authority and dominion. Additionally, Jesus claims to forgive sins in the synoptics - something only that God can do.
"Whoever acknowledges me, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven." So, you would claim that final judgement is based upon this mere human being? To think that is, in my opinion, arrogant. Instead final judgment is based upon on one's reaction to Jesus AS God.
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With that said my reaction is still the same. No Jesus was not God or God in the flesh. I haven't found a single quote where Jesus said he was God or a god. Maybe you can point that out to me.

People put such a high meaning to the word manifest and it isn't what they assume it is.

Manifest means to show or to make plain or make clear. So God manifested through Jesus. Fine I can get with that. That makes sense, but to claim that Jesus was God in the flesh is not true. If God is working through Jesus by way of his spirit doesn't make Jesus God at all. The is is evident from what Jesus said from his own lips. He told he was sent byt God, He told us he was here to do God's will and he told us God was in heavens...............
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
lew0049 said:
Well, in a "sense" he would be inferior to the Father, since he is the Father in the Flesh - mans flesh. As I said earlier,
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So how can God become (inferior) or less than God by being in the flesh?

If God is omnipotent, omnipresent then how can he become inferior?
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
lew0049 said:


Of course the Bible never explicitly states "Trinity", but there are many terms we say that are not in the Bible. For example, the word "bible" is not found in the "bible."​
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Well, that's not a convincing argument seeing as thought the scriptures were on scrolls and later collected and assemble into a "bible" (Collection of writings)

lew0049 said:
Regardless though, the books in the NT are not formal, point by point writings of doctrine. Nowhere in the Bible do the authors show difficulty in using the Father, Son or Holy Spirit - almost interchangably.

Three verses from the Bible that link the "trinity" concept.



All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and ofthe Son and ofthe Holy Spirit [Matthew 28:19].
May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all
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Where do you see the trinity in this. God, Jesus and the holy spirit are respectfully mentioned seperately.

God - Is

Holy Spirit - God's tool to help aid Jesus

Jesus - The chosen vessel ordained with God's holy spirit to do God's will

That's how I see it.
lew0049 said:
[2 Corinthians 13:14].
To God’s elect. . .who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood [1 Peter 1:1-2].
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Some one's opinion......
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
fascist_crusader said:
1 Timothy 3:16 states outright that "God was manifest in the flesh" when speaking about Christ. There you have it folks.
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I have a few bibles and none of them say that.

Timothy 3:16
3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of reverence: who was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
FerventGodSeeker said:
First of all, I think forgiveness of sins, which Jesus Christ did, is a far greater miracle than parting a sea.
In Mark 2:10, Jesus was being questioned by some scribes as to how He could declare a paralyzed man's sins forgiven, and He said, "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins..." Clearly Christ did, and still does, have that authority. If we believe (as I hope you do) that only God can forgive someone's sins, and we see here that Jesus forgives someone's sins, then what would that make Jesus?
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And as I have stated, any "divinity" Jesus had was granted to him by God.

Joh 5:30 "I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment
is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the
Father who sent Me.

Joh 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but
the will of Him who sent Me.

 Joh 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who
sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.


To answer your question...That makes Jesus a servent to the one who sent him....
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
fascist_crusader said:
Yet God the father says that there is but one God, there never was or will be any more gods, and that none are equal to him. The logical conclusion: Jesus is God the father in flesh.
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I am so glad you cleared that up....:sarcastic


 Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them and said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His
who sent Me.

 Joh 14:24 "He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word
which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Joh 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of him who sent
me, and to accomplish his work.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me,
for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord,
but he sent me.

 John 8:50 "And I do not seek My own glory; there is One who seeks and judges.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his master; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


I see what you mean though. After all He said he must be God. Surely there is nothing like God sending himself in the flesh of a man to tell us that he is still in heaven andhe sent himself. Surely God is not here to do his will but here to do the will of God that sent him......:sarcastic
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Katzpur said:
So Jesus (God the Father in flesh) prayed to His God, who was in Heaven. But He was apparently really here on earth. He asked Himself to remove the bitter cup. And when He hung on the cross, He wondered why He'd forsaken Himself. He asked Himself to forgive those who had nailed Him to the cross. He died, commending His spirit into His own hands. After His resurrection, He told His Apostles that He was greater than Himself. He said that He was going to be with Himself in Heaven, even though He was supposedly already there. And today, He sits on His own right hand. Someday, He will give Himself the authority to judge us. I think I've got it now!
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OH MY GOODNESS.......YOU ROCK...........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
F

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Any sixth grader can mock the divinity of Christ and spew vapid remarks about the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and His Son.

However, few have the intellectual acuity to perceive the spiritual nuances of biblical truth or possess the ability to articulate a depth of understanding.
 
L

lew0049

CWebb
Dre - it seems as though you are only taking the quotes from the Bible at face value? I'm sure you will say you aren't but I was reading parts of the NT last night, and I don't see how its possible not to see the trinity. Regardless though, when I said "inferior" I simply meant that Jesus had to deal with mankind's temptations on Earth.
 
Dirty Penguin

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
Moon Woman said:
Any sixth grader can mock the divinity of Christ and spew vapid remarks about the relationship of the Holy Spirit, God the Father and His Son.

However, few have the intellectual acuity to perceive the spiritual nuances of biblical truth or possess the ability to articulate a depth of understanding.
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Well there you go. I don't believe, from what other people as well as myself have posted, that any of us posess the mind of a 6th grader. I believe everyone here is smart and very intellectual and hold to their beliefs.

I certainly am not mocking the "divinity" of Jesus at all. I know he posessed divine qualities.

You don't have to be God to be divine. A good example of this would be God's angels.

But as I've stated all that Jesus posessed was granted to him by God.


Matt 9:6
 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Matt 9:7
And he arose, and departed to his house.

Matt 9:8
But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.
 
F

!Fluffy!

Lacking Common Sense
Here are some very good scholarly articles for those interested in actual study of the biblical concept of the Trinity, rather than rhetoric and guessing and bs'ing. It's a fascinating subject but widely misunderstood so worthy of study.

Sample from the 1st article:

In order to support the traditional Christian view of the relationship of Jesus to the Father, we must understand the background for certain claims about the nature and identity of Jesus in the New Testament. Our general argument may be outlined as follows:
Jesus, as God's Word and Wisdom, was and is eternally an attribute of God the Father. Just as our own words and thoughts come from us and cannot be separated from us, so it is that Jesus cannot be completely separate from the Father. But there is more to this explanation, related to the distinction between functional subordination and ontological equality. We speak of Christ as the "Word" of God, God's "speech" in living form. In Hebrew and Ancient Near Eastern thought, words were not merely sounds, or letters on a page; words were things that "had an independent existence and which actually did things." Throughout the Old Testament and in the Jewish intertestamental Wisdom literature, the power of God's spoken word is emphasized (Ps. 33:6, 107:20; Is. 55:11; Jer. 23:29; 2 Esd. 6:38; Wisdom 9:1). "Judaism understood God's Word to have almost autonomous powers and substance once spoken; to be, in fact, 'a concrete reality, a veritable cause.'" (Richard N. Longenecker, The Christology of Early Jewish Christianity , 145.) But a word did not need to be uttered or written to be alive." (excerpt from 1st link below).
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Trinity
 
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