You’ll have to tell me what exactly confuses you.I read both of your posts.And am confused.
Please explain.
Sgt. Pepper asserts the Bible contradicts itself, whereas I don’t.
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Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Sgt. Pepper asserts the Bible contradicts itself, whereas I don’t.
Yeah, that's supposedly how this spirit was identified as Samuel. Now how does a person’s clothes, like this “robe”, turn into spirit?
It’s all part of the impostering gag.
(@Brian2 )
Brian2
Veteran Member
Spirits in the Bible are always clothed.
If you don't believe God when He says this was Samuel, if you do not believe it even when the spirit gave a true prophecy of what would happen to Saul and his sons and Israel, then I suppose you would not believe it was Samuel even if Saul had the spirit swear an oath that he was Samuel.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 claims that the dead know nothing. So, how is it that a deceased Samuel knew Saul and was able to talk with him? In my opinion, that's an inconsistent message, but of course, I don't believe the Bible is accurate. What are your thoughts on the verse?
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RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
You’ve made two assumptions - a) That I’ve said bad things about someone; b) That I’ve said these bad things behind someone’s back.
Neither assumption is correct.
Messianic Israelite
Active Member
Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.
Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.
What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?
"18 Yahweh will rescue me from every evil attack and will bring me safely to his heavenly kingdom. To him be glory for ever and ever. Amen."
"10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters,a]">[a] make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Master and Savior Yahshua the Messiah."
Frank Goad. Good afternoon. Respectfully, you do err. None of these scriptures that you have quoted show that we go to heaven when we die. They do indicate a heavenly Kingdom. That heavenly Kingdom will come down upon this earth, as we read in Revelation 21:2. I have included the citations you have used as quotes above, taken from the New International Version (with the Sacred Names). Perhaps you would do well to include the quotes instead of the citations so others can examine your opinions.
There is only one who has descended and ascended to the heavens and that is Yahshua the Messiah (Ephesians 4:10). That’s where he came from, and he has returned to take his place beside Yahweh, on the right hand side of his throne (Mark 16:19). Have you never read 1 Thessalonians 4:16? The dead are dead. The righteous dead will be resurrected when Yahshua returns to this earth to set up the Kingdom of Yahweh. The wicked will be judged after the 1,000 year millennial reign.
Ken S in my opinion should know better. Let’s have a look at the scriptures he has used to say we go to heaven when we die.2 Corinthians 5:8 says “We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Master.” Second Corinthians 5:1–10 continues Paul's teaching from the previous chapter. The glory of eternity with Yahshua is far weightier than any suffering experienced in our temporary bodies in this life. Paul longs to occupy his eternal body, described as a permanent house built by Yahweh Himself. Knowing that is coming, Paul has the courage to risk even more suffering in order to continue the mission to preach the Good News. His one goal in this life is to please Yahshua. He knows that every True Worshipper will face judgment by Yahshua to receive what is due for our works while living in these temporary bodies.
It is no way says we go to heaven when we die.
Let’s look at the second scripture he used.
Luke 23:43 which says: “ And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To-day shalt thou be with me in Paradise.”
Because there’s no punctuation in the text, it should be read “And he said unto him, Verily I say unto thee today, shalt thou be with me in Paradise” The comma makes all the difference. Rather than saying that today he would be in Paradise, he was saying, I say these word to you today.
Let’s look at the last scripture Ken S used. Luke 16:22. “2 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and that he was carried away by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: and the rich man also died, and was buried.”
The scriptures harmonize. You’ll notice that both the beggar and the rich man died. Matthew 24:31 shows that at the end of the age Yahweh will send forth the call and he will gather his people from the four winds of heaven and the Kingdom of Yahweh will be established on this earth. Lazarus will be included in that resurrection. In that Kingdom of Yahweh will appear Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ruling under Yahshua the Messiah. We do not immediately go to heaven when we die. You have to harmonize the scriptures. Lazarus and the Rich Man died. Did the Rich Man therefore straightaway go to Gehenna? No, the scriptures shows that they will be a first (Revelation 20:6) and second resurrection, that all will be judged, those deemed righteous will receive eternal life, those who do not will be destroyed in Gehenna Fire. When we die, the time that elapsed between us dying and the Judgment will seem like a moment, like awaking from a sleep, which is why the Rich Man supposed that his friends were still alive.
You can read this article about the Rich Man and Lazarus here:
k-10-Lazarus-and-the-Rich-Man.pdf (secureservercdn.net)
So you see, none of the scriptures indicate we go to heaven when we die. That’s a horrible lie, meant to ease the conciences of the people who would like to believe their loved ones have all being judged righteous and are smiling down from then in heaven. It’s not true. We read the model prayer: “your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.” The Kingdom of Yahweh will come down upon this earth. The dead will be resurrected. Yahshua never mentioned that any of the righteous dead were already in heaven. The heaven is for the heavenly beings, the angels, Yahweh and Yahshua.
In verse 23 of Luke 16 it tells us that the rich man lifts up his eyes in hell. The word which has been translated “hell” in the King James Version, is “hades” in the Greek. It means the common grave. The old Saxon word “hell” is derived from or means “hole”. It does not all raise the slightest connotation that it would mean “Gehenna”, which is the lake of fire or destruction that awaits sinners. The rich man was buried, as we read in the previous verse, and he was resurrected at the second resurrection he awaked and was still in the grave.
John 3:13 says what? “No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.”
Don’t be deluded and believe the lie that you’ll immediately go to heaven when you die. Yahshua my Savior said it. No one has gone to heaven except Yahshua. They'll be weeping and gnashing of teeth at the Judgment Seat Yahshua tells us in Luke 13:28. One of the reasons will be because people erroneously thought they would go to heaven when they die, and they didn't.
Muffled
Jesus in me
Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die.
Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11.
What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?
I believe you are referring to "heavenly kingdom" in Timothy. That is not necessarily Heaven. I believe the theme there is that he will end up where he should be.
I believe in Peter it is called "eternal kingdom" and that can be earthly or heavenly and can be more an indication of the present than an indication of the future although one leads to the other.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Corinthians is a preference not a prediction.
I believe paradise is not in Heaven but is in the heavens.
I believe no-one knows where Abraham is and more than likely the parable is fiction.
I believe there is this one: John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
but the assumption is that Jesus is in Heaven. I believe it is more likely that from the ascension to the present Jesus is in Paradise.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe Corinthians is a preference not a prediction.
I believe paradise is not in Heaven but is in the heavens.
I believe no-one knows where Abraham is and more than likely the parable is fiction.
I believe there is this one: John 17:24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.
but the assumption is that Jesus is in Heaven. I believe it is more likely that from the ascension to the present Jesus is in Paradise.[/QUOTE]
Muffled
Jesus in me
But those are parables and metaphors, they didn't actually mean it!
I believe there is no indication that the first two are parables or metaphors. Certainly the last one is a parable.
Frank Goad
Well-Known Member
Two bible passages that I think say you go right to heaven when you die. Here they are 2 Timothy 4:18 and 2 Peter 1:10-11. What do you think?Do you agree?Or disagree?
First of all, I find we need to know who are the 'you' that are mentioned in those verses.
2 Peter 1:10 lets us know it is Jesus ' brothers '. Jesus ' brothers ' as mentioned at Matthew 25:40.
Paul, who wrote 2nd Timothy would be one of Jesus' 'spiritual brothers' called to heaven.
Those 'brothers ' have that first or earlier resurrection as mentioned at Revelation 20:6.
They are a ' little flock ' among ' other sheep ' - Luke 12:32; Revelation 1:6; 5:9-10 - who will govern over earth.
Govern over the ' other sheep' who will inherit (Not Heaven) but inherit the Earth - John 10:16; Psalms 37:9-11.
The brothers are like the people mentioned at Luke 22:28-30; Daniel 7:18 who are the saints/holy ones.- Hebrews 3:1.
The 'brothers' are Not the ' sheep ' of Matthew 25:37 because the 'sheep' have an earthly hope, Not heavenly.
No one who died before Jesus died are called to heaven - Hebrews 11:13; Hebrews 11:39; John 3:13.
Even King David is Not resurrected to heavenly life but to later earthly life - Acts of the Apostles 2:34
So, "yes" the 'brothers' who make up the 'little flock' are resurrected to heaven, whereas the majority of mankind can have a 'future' resurrection a happy-and-healthy physical resurrection on Earth.
That is why the 'future tense' is used at Acts of the Apostles 24:15 that there 'is going to be' a resurrection...
( the 'saints/holy ones' are Not part of that future/later resurrection but the earlier or first resurrection - Rev. 20:6)
The soul that sins: dies - Ezekiel 18:4,20 (No immortal soul in Scripture )
Adam was a living soul - Genesis 2:7 - and at death sinner Adam became a dead soul, a dead person.
Adam went from non-life, to life, and returned going back to non life - Genesis 3:19
There was No post-mortem penalty for sin, No double jeopardy for sin, just 'returning ' to dust.
A person can Not 'return' to a place he never was before.
The soul/the person goes to 'sleep' after death as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14.
Jesus was teaching from the OT - Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
The dead know nothing, nothing but unconscious sleep until Resurrection Day - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
I suppose one could say Jesus' dead friend of 4 days dead was still in existence in the sense his 4-day dead body had Not yet completely decomposed. - John 11:17
Jesus' friend experienced the same death that sinner Adam did - simply returning to dust - Genesis 3:19
ALL of a dead person goes to the grave until 'Resurrection Day' (Jesus' coming Millennium-Long Day of governing over Earth for a thousand years)
The dead know nothing but 'unconscious sleep' until Resurrection Day -> Psalms 115:17; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5.
Thus, the Bible's hell/grave is simply mankind's temporary stoned-cold grave for the sleeping dead til Resurrection Day.
- www.jw.org
Saul did Not inquire that from God but from a spirit medium - 1 Samuel 28:7-8
That was unscriptural - 1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul turned to the demons as a substitute for God to guide him.
Show us where is the verse that says, ' Saul saw__________'
It was the medium who said 'she saw' something. Something by occult powers.
She did Not establish dead Samuel but rather a demonic counterfeit version for Saul who wanted to believe her.
Saul was speaking to demons.
Just as sinner Adam returned back to non-life where he began so do the rest of us return to non-life.
Non-life of No knowledge, No consciousness, No dreaming just un-conscious sleep - Ecclesiastes 9:5
Sleep in death just as Jesus taught at John 11:11-14,17 from Psalms 115:17; 6:5; 13:3; Isaiah 38:18
So, Jesus believed he would be 'sound asleep' while in the grave - Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Seems to me Jesus deserved that well needed rest - R.I.P.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Eccles 9:4There is hope, however, for anyone who is among the living; for even a live dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, because the memory of them is forgotten. 6Their love, their hate, and their envy have already vanished, and they will never again have a share in all that is done under the sun.…
The JWs take things out of context. In context the passage is about the dead not knowing what is happening on the earth. In that regard death is like being locked up in a room with no outside communication.
Samuel knew Saul because he had known Saul while he was alive.
Samuel was able to prophesy to Saul because God gave him the prophecy.
There are other things that the JWs (amongst others) take out of context and/or with the wrong translation to fit their theology.
eg Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, in mortal man, who cannot save. 4When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.
Notice the word "plans". Some translations have "his thoughts perish". The JWs use this to say that the dead are not conscious at all in death.
Psalm 146:4 When his spirit departs, he returns to the ground; on that very day his plans perish.
There is consistency in the Bible about death but it takes a little bit of understanding of what it is talking about. What with false interpretations around these days it is no surprise that people get confused about what the Bible actually teaches.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I said nothing about an immortal soul.
When Adam was created the parts (body and spirit) were put together and Adam became a living soul. The totality of Adam is the soul.
When Adam died his body became a dead soul but the spirit part continued living. This spirit part, even though not a complete person, became the soul of Adam after the death of the body. That spirit part was then the totality of the person even though the person was not complete without a body.
See Matthew 10:28
JWs have the wrong idea about death. Full death is the death of the body and the spirit part of man. When the body dies the spiritual soul does not die, so the person is not completely dead at that point. (see Matt 10:28 again) Death is the wages of sin but full death does not come to a person unless that person is destroyed completely, body and soul, in the lake of fire, the second death.
The lake of fire is not a double jeopardy, it is not a second judgement for sin, it is the continuation of judgement and God judges a person on what they have done in this life and makes a final pronouncement on whether the person will get the full penalty (the second death) or not.
Man is made from dust and spirit, which is breathed into the dust.
We return to the dust when our body dies but that says nothing about what happens to the spirit, the inner man, the soul that lives on after the death of the body.
JWs ignore that part of man and by so doing they make a resurrection impossible. Without a spirit/soul (our living essence) to go back into a body there can be no resurrection, all there can be is the making of a copy of the dead person's body and putting life into it. God can make one copy or 1000 copies and they would all be the same, and so there could be 1000 people running around all thinking they were me.
The real resurrection is when the spiritual soul is put in another body so that it is actually I who is raised back to life in a body.
Certainly the body looks like it is asleep but scripture does not teach unconsciousness after death. Jesus did not teach that in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The OT does not teach that in the story of the witch of Endor. Jesus spoke of one of His companions on the cross (a thief) being in paradise with Him that very day.
JWs like to call death "sleep" but in sleep the person still exists and JWs teach that a person does not exist after death, that the whole person has disintegrated into nothing. That sleep teaching is therefore not completely honest imo.
Brian2
Veteran Member
The dead in Christ are raised before the Millennium and all the other dead people are not raised until after the millennium. (Rev 20:4-6)
Whom do you say is alive during the Millennium?
Brian2
Veteran Member
Why does the scripture tell us that it was Samuel to whom Saul was speaking?
To believe that, is to contradict other Scripture.
Why would Samuel be a “old man” as a spirit? As a Spirit Creature, he would be looking youthful! And vibrant!
It was only to fool Saul… “the dead know nothing”… so it was a demon.
Since God had removed His protection from Saul, no doubt wicked spirits were allowed to maneuver events to fulfill this ‘prophecy.’
Huh? Of course I wouldn’t believe it. It was a demon.
Jehovah had the account recorded in His Word, as a warning that this is one way Satan and his horde of angels / demons mislead people. — Revelation 12:9.
If death was really a portal to life in another realm, then why didn’t Jehovah explain that to Adam? God didn’t say anything else….about burning, or anything! (Don't you think that would be sort of important to mention?!) Then, after Adam sinned, Jehovah simply said “you will return to the ground….For dust you are, and to dust you will return.”
God was talking to Adam’s ‘person’, not his body.
There has been no other religious book that has been misinterpreted as much as the Bible has.
That’s why we need Jesus’ (our) Father’s help to understand it. (Luke 10:21) Not Jesus’ help.