Jehovah's Witness=Unbiblical Religion!

Spiderman said:

Amen! This and many of your posts here, I frubaled! Preach it bro!

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I come on too strong at times and it is usually not what could be called preaching but that's life on the forums at times.
I hope you spiritual journey is going well for you. It is hard to tell exactly what you believe at times of course but I hope you hold on to Jesus.

muhammad_isa said:

I can see why you would think that..
However, Muslims weren't around at the time when Niceans and Arians were "competing" with each other for truth.
Why was it necessary for the Nicean Emperors to persecute Arians and burn books?

Is that what Jesus taught? Have wars over whether Jesus was made of the same substance as G-d or not?

If you can't see that there is something drastically wrong there, I will leave you in your ignominy.

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Of course something went wrong and both sides of the debate ended up doing the wrong things from what I have heard, and emperors swung back and forth in which side they supported.
People have been using the whole thing to condemn the trinity and Christianity, and using wrong historical information for the purpose, but what happened has got nothing to do with the trinity being right or wrong.

Brian2 said:

I come on too strong at times and it is usually not what could be called preaching but that's life on the forums at times.
I hope you spiritual journey is going well for you. It is hard to tell exactly what you believe at times of course but I hope you hold on to Jesus.

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I believe Jesus died to atone for our sins with his blood, and rose from the dead. I call on my Lord and savior and pray in Jesus name!

Brian2 said:

Maybe they all became soldiers to defend their country. Leaders have a tendency to deceive people. Judging the soldiers with the same judgement you might be giving to the leaders is not right and really we don't know the whole story to be able to judge the leaders properly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if it is tempting to do so.
The JWs take the moral high ground to say how wonderful that religion is, but the truth of the matter is not that straight forward.
But of course I don't want to say that to be politically neutral is wrong.

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If I did not think that Jehovah's Witnesses have the best possible way approved by God, I most likely would be what I was before I studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses. Which was doing whatever I wanted, not believing in God, not appreciating what the Bible says. OK, bye for now.

Spiderman said:

The Bible has an extremely large amount of verses, that don't mean what they say. I met a guy in a mental institution who plucked out his eyes because Jesus said, "if your eye causes you to send pluck it out, better to enter Heaven missing an eye than to have both of your eyes and be tossed into hell, where the worm does not die. "

The Bible told him to pluck his eye out, so he obeyed. The Bible has many verses like that. The Bible says that if you ask anything in the name of Jesus it will be done for you. I asked Jesus for understanding, and he told me the Bible needs to have an authentic interpreter, and the Bible was never supposed to be the soul authority or rule of faith.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is to be the primary authority or primary rule for Faith or theology. There needs to be an authority on Earth that settles disputes on faith and morals. You tell me:

" If the church after constantine, the Catholic church, was different than the church before Constantine, what happened to the church before constantine? What was it called? Where did it go? Did it just up and vanish?"

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It's obvious from history and what the Bible says, that the light from Christ was dimmed for a long time after the apostles died.

Brian2 said:

Maybe they all became soldiers to defend their country. Leaders have a tendency to deceive people. Judging the soldiers with the same judgement you might be giving to the leaders is not right and really we don't know the whole story to be able to judge the leaders properly,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even if it is tempting to do so.....

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Maybe the citizens and constituents were not encouraged by their religious or political leaders to follow in Christ's footsteps and not kill one another. Or rob and steal somebody else's possessions, hmm? Maybe?

Brian2 said:

The scriptures that show Jesus rising from the dead with His body for a start.
That body is the transformed and glorified and incorruptible and immortal body that other Christians are said to rise with.
This body is spoken of in 1Cor 15 and the phrase "flesh and blood" is synonymous for corruptible.
1Cor 15:50, the whole verse, says 50 "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
At John 17:5 Jesus does not have to be a spirit to have the same glory he had before coming to earth, but of course when Jesus rose from the dead He did fill all things and become that life giving Spirit, the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, as well as remain a man with a body, who rose to heaven with that body as a transformed man. He now fill the whole universe (Eph 4:10) as the One Spirit (Eph 4:4) while still remaining a man on the throne of David and mediating a new Covenant. (1Tim 2:5)
1Pet 3:18 For Christ also msuffered2 nonce for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, othat he might bring us to God, being put to death pin the flesh but made alive qin the spirit, 3 he went and qproclaimed4 to the spirits in prison,
This is what Jesus did, as a spirit in hades, between when He died and rose again.
The JWs have a bit of a tangled web on this point of what a human is and what happens after death and what happens in the resurrection.

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Tell me, please…. If a person, at death, immediately begins living “in another realm”, why does the Bible speak of the Resurrection as being a future event?
And why didn’t Jehovah explain to Adam what death really was? That he would be “tormented” if he disobeyed? Jehovah didn’t explain any of that….if it were true. But Jehovah did tell him after his rebellion,”You will return to the ground….For dust you are, and to dust you will return.” God didn’t say ‘his body’ will return — God said ‘he’ will. Meaning him, his person.

So are the Scriptures in harmony with this? Yes! They indicate what happens to people at their death. They “know nothing” and “their jealousy and hate have perished”(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6); their ‘spirit goes out, they go back to the ground’(Psalms 146:3-4); that’s why they ‘don’t praise the Lord’ (Psalms 115:17) — they know nothing. Only the future resurrection will bring them back to life.

You keep trying to get around that.

Where was Lazarus, those 4 days he was dead? John 11

Wildswanderer said:

Only your scriptures are modified to remove the references to Jesus being God.

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Which Scriptures? You mean like John 1:1?
Regarding that verse, after studying its grammatical structure, highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J.,in his 'Dictionary of the Bible', pg.317, wrote...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY).

A Catholic scholar wrote that!
I appreciate his honesty.

You have another?

Hockeycowboy said:

Tell me, please…. If a person, at death, immediately begins living “in another realm”, why does the Bible speak of the Resurrection as being a future event?
And why didn’t Jehovah explain to Adam what death really was? That he would be “tormented” if he disobeyed? Jehovah didn’t explain any of that….if it were true. But Jehovah did tell him after his rebellion,”You will return to the ground….For dust you are, and to dust you will return.” God didn’t say ‘his body’ will return — God said ‘he’ will. Meaning him, his person.

So are the Scriptures in harmony with this? Yes! They indicate what happens to people at their death. They “know nothing” and “their jealousy and hate have perished”(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6); their ‘spirit goes out, they go back to the ground’(Psalms 146:3-4); that’s why they ‘don’t praise the Lord’ (Psalms 115:17) — they know nothing. Only the future resurrection will bring them back to life.

You keep trying to get around that.

Where was Lazarus, those 4 days he was dead? John 11

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Why would Jesus say Lazarus was with Abraham, and the rich man tormented in Hades, and interacting with Abraham, asking for water for his tongue, if the dead don't go to a realm where they have a tongue, and can feel flames of torment?

Why was Jesus seen with Moses and Elijah, if there is no life or realm for the souls of the dead?

Why were the martyrs in the book of revelation calling for God's vengeance on earth?

And Scripture says the ghost of Samuel told Saul he would join him in the world of the dead, and it happened as prophecied. Scripture doesn't say it was a demon. It says the ghost was Samuel.

Why does Scripture speak of a woman in the sky, clothed with the sun, crowned with stars, who battles the dragon?

Why does Scripture repeatedly speak of the souls of the dead living on, if it is falsehood and misleading?

Why did Jesus tell Martha about her dead brother, "your brother lives"?

If Jehovah wanted the Scriptures to be the final authority on something, why does Jehovah never once say that the Scriptures are the final authority on anything?

I'm sorry, @Brian2 has won the debate with you!

He isn't trying to get around anything. It is you who is being unbiblical , avoiding Scriptures, adding truths and doctrine not found in Scripture, avoiding logic, opposing God's word , and twisting the truth in the Scriptures!

Spiderman said:

He isn't trying to get around anything. It is you who is being unbiblical , avoiding Scriptures, adding truths and doctrine not found in Scripture, avoiding logic, opposing God's word , and twisting the truth in the Scriptures!

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Again, you didnt respond to any of the Scriptures I quoted.

And you say the Scriptures “contradict themselves”, anyways. Now you’re using them?

If you address the Scriptures I used, I’ll respectfully reply to yours.

Hockeycowboy said:

Again, you didnt respond to any of the Scriptures I quoted.

And you say the Scriptures “contradict themselves”, anyways. Now you’re using them?

If you address the Scriptures I used, I’ll respectfully reply to yours.

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I'm giving a clear biblical defense of why the dead go on living, which you keep attacking.

Also, the Bible does contradict itself, because much of it was never to be taken literally, or used as a final authority on anything.

Much of Scripture was addressed to a particular people, at a particular time, in a particular cultural context, in another ancient language where some meaning is lost over time and in translation.

Much of Scripture is hyperbole, parable, symbolism, stuff not meant literal in meaning, poetry, and gross exaggerations, or statements not meant to be precise, or illustrations.

Just because Scripture was inspired by God, doesn't mean it all applies to everyone today. Neither does it mean everyone knows how to interpret it. Neither did Jehovah say Scripture is a final authority on anything.

The Bible is a Catholic church tradition, because nothing in the Bible says what the correct canon of Scripture is. The Catholic Church decided all that. The Christian Bible is a Catholic book!

Jesus said "listen to the Church". He didn't even say to read the Bible. The early Christians were not Bible Christians.

Jesus didn't leave us with a Bible. He left us with a Church.

Opposing the Church he founded, and starting man made Churches is unbiblical, and never supported by Christ.

Most of what Christ said and did isn't in Scripture. The Bible actually says that.

Spiderman said:

Why did Jesus tell Martha about her dead brother, "your brother lives"?

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In the interests of accuracy, it does not say that. Jesus said “your brother will live.” Most versions say “your brother will rise.” John 11:23

Hockeycowboy said:

In the interests of accuracy, it does not say that. Jesus said “your brother will live.” Most versions say “your brother will rise.” John 11:23

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John 11:25
New International Version
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;

Spiderman said:

The Bible has an extremely large amount of verses, that don't mean what they say. I met a guy in a mental institution who plucked out his eyes because Jesus said, "if your eye causes you to send pluck it out, better to enter Heaven missing an eye than to have both of your eyes and be tossed into hell, where the worm does not die. "

The Bible told him to pluck his eye out, so he obeyed. The Bible has many verses like that. The Bible says that if you ask anything in the name of Jesus it will be done for you. I asked Jesus for understanding, and he told me the Bible needs to have an authentic interpreter, and the Bible was never supposed to be the soul authority or rule of faith.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is to be the primary authority or primary rule for Faith or theology. There needs to be an authority on Earth that settles disputes on faith and morals. You tell me:

" If the church after constantine, the Catholic church, was different than the church before Constantine, what happened to the church before constantine? What was it called? Where did it go? Did it just up and vanish?"

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Apparently, the church (woman), who "keeps the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Yeshua", was hidden from the dragon/devil per Revelation 12:17. The early followers mostly fell away (Matthew 24:10-11), and followed "false prophets". The earliest falling away is traced to Peter denying Yeshua (Matthew 26:31) per Zechariah 13:7. The Roman church was built around Peter and Paul, the two shepherds of Zechariah 11, who were to be used to "pasture" the "flock (Christian church) doomed for slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7).

Spiderman said:

The Bible has an extremely large amount of verses, that don't mean what they say. I met a guy in a mental institution who plucked out his eyes because Jesus said, "if your eye causes you to send pluck it out, better to enter Heaven missing an eye than to have both of your eyes and be tossed into hell, where the worm does not die. "

The Bible told him to pluck his eye out, so he obeyed. The Bible has many verses like that. The Bible says that if you ask anything in the name of Jesus it will be done for you. I asked Jesus for understanding, and he told me the Bible needs to have an authentic interpreter, and the Bible was never supposed to be the soul authority or rule of faith.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Bible is to be the primary authority or primary rule for Faith or theology. There needs to be an authority on Earth that settles disputes on faith and morals. You tell me:

" If the church after constantine, the Catholic church, was different than the church before Constantine, what happened to the church before constantine? What was it called? Where did it go? Did it just up and vanish?"

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There are many mentally deficient persons, which most likely apart from trauma, are probably demonized. What Yeshua said about taking out one's eye was correct, as it would be better to take out one's eye, then to be tossed into hell. The message is that one is to change their behavior, at whatever cost, such as in to repent, rather than be tossed into hell. What Yeshua said was that his message came in the form of parables (Mt 13:13), so that those without eyes or ears, the "wicked" (Daniel 13), will not understand, and that would include people who call themselves elders/leaders and teachers, which is a claim refuted by Yeshua in Matthew 23:8-10, but established by the false prophet Paul.

Hockeycowboy said:

Which Scriptures? You mean like John 1:1?
Regarding that verse, after studying its grammatical structure, highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J.,in his 'Dictionary of the Bible', pg.317, wrote...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY).

A Catholic scholar wrote that!
I appreciate his honesty.

You have another?

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The Catholic scholar is showing the translation of John 1:1c but that scholar is a trinitarian and cites Titus 2:13 and John 20:28 and probably John 1:18 to show Jesus is plainly called God.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation

Hockeycowboy said:

Tell me, please…. If a person, at death, immediately begins living “in another realm”, why does the Bible speak of the Resurrection as being a future event?

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Existence in sheol/hades is just our spirit side being there and the resurrection is about that spirit, the soul or totality of the person after death, being united again with another body so they can be fully human again.

Hockeycowboy said:

And why didn’t Jehovah explain to Adam what death really was? That he would be “tormented” if he disobeyed? Jehovah didn’t explain any of that….if it were true. But Jehovah did tell him after his rebellion,”You will return to the ground….For dust you are, and to dust you will return.” God didn’t say ‘his body’ will return — God said ‘he’ will. Meaning him, his person.

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We do return to the ground. But the scriptures also speak of sheol/hades where our souls go after death. The scriptures also speak of humans being a combination of body and spirit. (Genesis 2:7)
This is more than some dead force. (see 1Cor 2:11) This is what lives on after the death of the body (see Matt 10:28) This is what goes to the care of God after death. (Eccles 12:7) and ends up in sheol/hades.
As for what God told Adam, I do not know why God does what He does and does not do what He does not do most of the time.
But of course being good should not be just a matter of avoiding feeling bad. I don't think the Bible tells us what a person will be tormented by and personally I doubt that the soul is immortal even though I can see that the soul is tormented even if it does eventually go out of existence. (see Romans 14:11)

Hockeycowboy said:

So are the Scriptures in harmony with this? Yes! They indicate what happens to people at their death. They “know nothing” and “their jealousy and hate have perished”(Ecclesiastes 9:5-6); their ‘spirit goes out, they go back to the ground’(Psalms 146:3-4); that’s why they ‘don’t praise the Lord’ (Psalms 115:17) — they know nothing. Only the future resurrection will bring them back to life.

You keep trying to get around that.

Where was Lazarus, those 4 days he was dead? John 11

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Lazarus was in hades I would say.
But I don't try to get around anything because I show places where the Bible tells us that the spirit and soul exist in man and survive the death of the body.
JW teaching is that man is no more than a body with what it calls a life force to animate it. This teaching is what is not in the scriptures and is what you try to get around.
You want to get around the fact that the Bible nowhere teaches that we go out of existence after death. To do this you make implications about the meaning of some OT verses, which those verses do not teach.
You want to get around the fact that the Bible does teach of an inner man, a spirit, which may have begun as a life force but becomes our inner essence that survives death.

Brian2 said:

..personally I doubt that the soul is immortal even though I can see that the soul is tormented even if it does eventually go out of existence. (see Romans 14:11)

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Double standards..
Many Christians and Jews claim that our spiritual essence [or soul] is not immortal..
..but strangely enough, it is, when they claim we might be eternally in heaven.

I agree with the JW's on some points eg. Unitarian leanings .. but not with others.
..such as I agree with the Catholic teachings on purgatory, for example.

muhammad_isa said:

Double standards..
Many Christians and Jews claim that our spiritual essence [or soul] is not immortal..
..but strangely enough, it is, when they claim we might be eternally in heaven.

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God offers us eternal life. God can turn our mortality into immortality.

Hockeycowboy said:

Which Scriptures? You mean like John 1:1?
Regarding that verse, after studying its grammatical structure, highly respected scholar and Catholic priest John L. McKenzie, S.J.,in his 'Dictionary of the Bible', pg.317, wrote...."Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type is mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (1965, NY).

A Catholic scholar wrote that!
I appreciate his honesty.

You have another?

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So you found one Catholic who agreed with you?
Ok then!
Do you want me to quote all the ones who disagree?
Four of the five men on the translation committee producing the complete 1961 edition of the JW Bible had no Hebrew or Greek training whatsoever.
Professor and dean Charles L. Feinberg: “I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah’s Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek scholar.”

Here's another:
Jesus said to them: ‘Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been.’” Because Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the deity and eternality of Jesus, their translators had to change the biblical text to match their doctrines.

Compare the KJV: “Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”

Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that Jesus is the first of Jehovah’s created beings, who then created all “other” things.

The KJV reads: “And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.”

The NASB reads: “He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.”

And the HCSB reads: “He is before all things, and by Him all things hold together.”

No English translation distorts the true meaning of this verse like the NWT.