615 people have been charged in the Capitol insurrection so far

We Never Know said:

"They discussed and planned what was originally to be a peaceful protest"

Do your really believe that? Isn't that what groups like BLM say too?

The thing is when you get 100's of upset people together that are wanting to protest or make a stand to try to stop something...it never ends peaceful. Most if not every riot started out as a peaceful protest and every person knew it could or would escalate and didn't care. They thought it would make them heard better.

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It's not a matter of what I believe. If it was planned, then who specifically planned it? What was their plan? Did they put anything in writing? Did they have maps of the Capitol? Did they have any schedules as to where key conspirators would be and what their assignments were? Was everybody in on it?

Most of those who have already pleaded guilty seem to be using the "Trump made me do it" defense, which isn't going to get them off the hook. But it does tend to put it back on Trump, which might prompt the question: What did Trump know and when did he know it? Did he plan it and organize it? If so, then that might explain why it turned out to be such a botch.

Stevicus said:

It's not a matter of what I believe. If it was planned, then who specifically planned it? What was their plan? Did they put anything in writing? Did they have maps of the Capitol? Did they have any schedules as to where key conspirators would be and what their assignments were? Was everybody in on it?

Most of those who have already pleaded guilty seem to be using the "Trump made me do it" defense, which isn't going to get them off the hook. But it does tend to put it back on Trump, which might prompt the question: What did Trump know and when did he know it? Did he plan it and organize it? If so, then that might explain why it turned out to be such a botch.

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You are right. That day was unplanned and several 100's(a 1000?) of people from all over the country just by coincidence showed up there that day, at that time, at the same place, with the same thing on their mind(in this case it was then election).

It happens all the time.

We Never Know said:

People discussed and planned on being there that day. That is enough to make it organized.

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Not according to the FBI.

“The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supportersof then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.”

Exclusive: FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated - sources

There is just no getting through to the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance among those who would never apply terms like “insurrectionists” or “terrorists” to certain antifa or blm individuals who loot and burn and riot and use violence to express their political perspectives, yet use these terms continuously in any discussion regarding those who were rioting at the capitol on January 6.

F1fan said:

What I find ironic is how the right often talks about freedom and liberty, but never about being responsible citizens while enjoying that freedom and liberty. It really is like a bunch of children who haven't learned that the stove is hot, and after touching it still blame the stove for being hot.

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Oh, I disagree. I hear the right often talking about citizens' responsibility.
Some aspects of this I hold against them, eg, always follow orders when
Uncle Sam calls men to duty. The military is useful, but the military mindset
can be seen as a tool, ie, lacking in autonomy. Ugh...not for me.

F1fan said:

Some, not all. That is why many used flag poles, police shields, police batons, and other improvised weapons. Those who brought bear spray were planning to get passed the police. I don't think the average Joe from Pig's Knuckle, Arkansas knew about the big plans. The girl who was shot and killed was part of the conspiracy.

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Regardless of what they thought when they flew to Washington, I'd say that anyone who grabbed a baton and shield off a cop and charged into the Capitol had come up with some sort of plan at some point.

Aštra’el said:

There is just no getting through to the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance among those who would never apply terms like “insurrectionists” or “terrorists” to certain antifa or blm individuals who loot and burn and riot and use violence to express their political perspectives, yet use these terms continuously in any discussion regarding those who were rioting at the capitol on January 6.

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I find there's no getting thru to people who over-use the word "terrorist",
applying it to malefactors who have no intent of creating terror.
The word "riot" is so often the proper term.
BTW, "insurrection" seems ripe for application to the Jan 6 donnybrook.

Shaul said:

Not according to the FBI.

“The FBI has found scant evidence that the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol was the result of an organized plot to overturn the presidential election result, according to four current and former law enforcement officials.

Though federal officials have arrested more than 570 alleged participants, the FBI at this point believes the violence was not centrally coordinated by far-right groups or prominent supportersof then-President Donald Trump, according to the sources, who have been either directly involved in or briefed regularly on the wide-ranging investigations.”

Exclusive: FBI finds scant evidence U.S. Capitol attack was coordinated - sources

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This is why a thorough bipartisan investigation by Congress is needed but only the Dems and a handful of Pubs are for it.

9-10ths_Penguin said:

Regardless of what they thought when they flew to Washington, I'd say that anyone who grabbed a baton and shield off a cop and charged into the Capitol had come up with some sort of plan at some point.

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I'm sure many of them had the idea in their minds to attack and destroy congress. They want a dictator in trump. All these people pose a threat to the USA.

In law a prosecutor has to show intent for an act, and while there may be two categories of people who broke into the Capitol (those who went intending to break in, and those who went to protest and ended up following others in) a prosecutor needs evidence of intent to break in. Those who just followed the crowd have a better defense than those who have evidence against them that they intended to break in. Those who followed can claim a mental impulse or being caught up in the moment. This is often accepted by courts to let a person off from a serious sentence.

This past week one guy arrested and convicted of crimes was facing sentencing and an hour before the sentencing there was a new video of the man attacking a police officer. So now he could face new charges. The man was just claiming to be caught up in the moment. That he used violence against an officer suggests he had a deeper intent than what evidence showed thus far. I'm glad that this video was found before he was sentenced because these people need to be held accountable to the fullest extent.

Revoltingest said:

Oh, I disagree. I hear the right often talking about citizens' responsibility.
Some aspects of this I hold against them, eg, always follow orders when
Uncle Sam calls men to duty. The military is useful, but the military mindset
can be seen as a tool, ie, lacking in autonomy. Ugh...not for me.

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Well the right is not advocating for responsibility to the USA or society or public health, etc. They are being told to be responsible to extremist dogma, or to trump, or to white supremacy, etc. The right pushes responsibility to crude and primal ideas, and against responsibility to more complex ideas like social contract or tolerance. They are exploiting the easy emotional ideas, not the challenging rational ideas.

SigurdReginson said:

an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government

Definition of INSURRECTION

Seems to fit to me. Then there's the Oxford version which you can find just by googling it.

a violent uprising against an authority or government.

What else do you call an attack by a group against a government building like this?

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I call it a mirror of how a government treats its people.

Insurrection lays in the eyes of its beholder.

We Never Know said:

Criminal charges and their careers, jobs, etc down the drain while trump sets back still a billionaire and no worries.
I wonder how many arrested still think it was cool?


Since supporters of then-President Donald Trump swarmed the US Capitol on January 6 — forcing Congress to go into lockdown and damaging the halls of government — 615 people have been arrested and charged with crimes.

The FBI is seeking the public's help to identify people who took part in one of the most documented crimes in US history.

Capitol Riot Arrests: Updated List of Who Has Been Charged so Far

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Good. I hope the charge more and I hope they are charged to the furthest extent of the law.

Twilight Hue said:

I call it a mirror of how a government treats its people.

Insurrection lays in the eyes of its beholder.

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For the most part, "the people" of the US support the government more than they support the putsch participants.

This was an insurrection of authoritarian extremists who were upset that the democratic process was thwarting their plans to impose their will on the people.

The fact that some of them were deluded enough to think that they had widespread popular support doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Twilight Hue said:

I call it a mirror of how a government treats its people.

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The president at the time lied to the people and was corrupt, so he did not treat the people well. His supporters were his mirror, and are being duly prosecuted. Just waiting for the former president to be indicted.

Insurrection lays in the eyes of its beholder.

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When it is based on lies and corruption, and IS the fraud of the political system, then there's little room for sympathetic beholding.

F1fan said:

The president at the time lied to the people and was corrupt, so he did not treat the people well. His supporters were his mirror, and are being duly prosecuted. Just waiting for the former president to be indicted.


When it is based on lies and corruption, and IS the fraud of the political system, then there's little room for sympathetic beholding.

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But this is what Trump's base doesn't want to hear or even believe, which includes most Pubs in Congress. Thus, it's repeated denial and false equivalencies have become their m.o., which is perpetrated daily on Fox.

F1fan said:

Well the right is not advocating for responsibility to the USA or society or public health, etc. They are being told to be responsible to extremist dogma, or to trump, or to white supremacy, etc. The right pushes responsibility to crude and primal ideas, and against responsibility to more complex ideas like social contract or tolerance. They are exploiting the easy emotional ideas, not the challenging rational ideas.

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That characterization is far more extreme than what I see

Far more interesting is the actual sentences these people are getting.


Here is an interesting twist.

Aštra’el said:

There is just no getting through to the hypocrisy and the cognitive dissonance among those who would never apply terms like “insurrectionists” or “terrorists” to certain antifa or blm individuals who loot and burn and riot and use violence to express their political perspectives, yet use these terms continuously in any discussion regarding those who were rioting at the capitol on January 6.

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Do you genuinely believe that Antifa or BLM planned a concerted overthrow of the US government in order to put their preferred guy in charge?

That is not a rhetorical question. I would be genuinely interested in hearing your reasoning why you think BLM protests were a prelude to an actual violent coup, and how you think this coup would have happened.

Kooky said:

I would be genuinely interested in hearing your reasoning why you think BLM protests were a prelude to an actual violent coup, and how you think this coup would have happened.

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You misrepresent my position, but that is not surprising.

I clearly said “certain individuals of antifa or blm”, and never said anything about a “prelude to an actual violent coup”. I mentioned cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy in the way people who fearmonger over 1-6 often completely dismiss/ ignore/ “justify” any crimes committed by antifa or blm throughout 2020, as if it is perfectly acceptable to them, while in the same breath obsessing over the actions of 1-6 rioters. That, and how the very definitions of “terrorism” they’ve cherrypicked to apply to 1-6 rioters also apply to certain individuals among the groups I mentioned, perhaps even more so.

But I get it. A freedom fighter in one person’s eyes is a terrorist in another. Except, the vast majority of antifa and blm aren’t fighters. For the most part, they know nothing of war and little of oppression. They live in one of the most comfortable places on earth, they take the many rights they have for granted, and they condemn in others the very behavior they display themselves. Are they terrorists? Depends on the definition. In my eyes, most of them, probably not. Are they hypocrites? Most of them, absolutely yes. Delusional, ungrateful hypocrites.

I don’t like terrorists, but at least terrorists, I can often understand why they do what they do. What I do not understand is hypocrisy. Not simple hypocrisy, as pretty much every human is guilty of, but an entire lifestyle and Weltanschauung of it.

Aštra’el said:

Except, the vast majority of these people aren’t fighters.

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What do you mean by “these people”?

When you say “these people”. Are you referring to all the people who showed up on Jan 6th? Are you referring to all Trump supporters? Or are “these people” the 615 who have been charged?

If it is the last one I think you are very wrong.


(And if it is the one on the other ones you are missing the point)