rocala
Well-Known Member
OK, lets go back to the beginning. Your dad's room is a mess and this has led to this conversation about parenting. Do we have the full picture here? I am really hoping that you have something to add.
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The Purpose of Parents
- Thread starter Rival
- Start date
Our kids were raised Catholics. Now my 55 yr old son is a devout Baptist, my 57yr old daughter hates religion but retains a rather naive faith, 53 yr old daughter not religious but very spiritual. Point being they each retained their faith though expressed differently. They knew what they were rejecting and retaining.
To me a parent is there to raise their children to (hopefully) become functioning and useful adults. Who in turn raise children to.... And gelp continue humanity.
That includes shelter, food and clothing but also advice where needed and setting a good example.
That includes shelter, food and clothing but also advice where needed and setting a good example.
Hermit Philosopher
Selflessly here for you
@Rival, I’m going to share something that my daughter said to me once when she was a teenager, that very much changed how I viewed the meaning of my own childhood.
She said: “Perhaps your bad relationship to nan was the reason you made sure that you and I developed such a good one?”
I have never forgotten her saying this. Not only because of how very loving it is, but also because there could truly be something in it.
Maybe we can use bad experiences with our parents as incentives to build really sound relationships with our own kids... perhaps it makes us try harder.
Humbly
Hermit
She said: “Perhaps your bad relationship to nan was the reason you made sure that you and I developed such a good one?”
I have never forgotten her saying this. Not only because of how very loving it is, but also because there could truly be something in it.
Maybe we can use bad experiences with our parents as incentives to build really sound relationships with our own kids... perhaps it makes us try harder.
Humbly
Hermit
As I've spoken about my dad a lot on here, most folks know he is way, way worse than what I've described here. Some examples,
He's been in a fistfight with his elderly father several times.
He's written swear words all over a cereal box because he didn't like the cereal.
He's locked me out of the house in a drunken frenzy.
He's rude to his parents to the point his mother told him never speak to him again and his parents spend most their time away at their holiday home just to be away from him.
He sits in his room loudly ranting about his parents while his parents are in bed so they can hear him.
He flies into rages over the most trivial things, usually food, and starts slamming cupboards like a child.
He lives in filth and rarely showers.
Etc.
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I absolutely am with you on this one, Rival. I feel that it's important for parents to embody what they want to teach their children. That's not to say parents should be perfect all the time, no one is, but if parents don't live by example, a kid isn't going to respect what their parents have to say.
Structure is important, too. Had I had more of a structure as a child, it probably would have kept me out of the trouble I had gotten into more. I can understand why that wasn't the case, though, since my dad was ex military and didn't want to inflict on us what he had to go through with extreme discipline. Plus, having grown out in the country, my mom thought it was perfectly fine for us to just go out and "explore." The thing is I didn't really grow up in the country, so I was able to get into trouble my mom didn't have the option to get into when she was a kid.
As for having a religious upbringing, there are certain benefits to growing up in a church community. It tends to be close knit, people tend to care for each other. The discipline that comes with a religious upbringing can be nice, too. Ultimately, I do feel that my religious upbringing was harmful for me, though I think it has to do more with the type of religion I was brought up with in combination with my upbringing. I've known other Christians where this wasn't the case, and their religious upbringing was a positive thing for them.
I can't really comment on anything more than being raised, since I don't really have kids of my own, and I don't really have much experience parenting... I do have plenty of ideas on how I would raise my child were I to have one, though, through the mistakes my parents made while raising me. They did their best, but there certainly were some things I would do differently. But until that's tested and I raise some kids of my own, my opinion doesn't really matter much, though.
Structure is important, too. Had I had more of a structure as a child, it probably would have kept me out of the trouble I had gotten into more. I can understand why that wasn't the case, though, since my dad was ex military and didn't want to inflict on us what he had to go through with extreme discipline. Plus, having grown out in the country, my mom thought it was perfectly fine for us to just go out and "explore." The thing is I didn't really grow up in the country, so I was able to get into trouble my mom didn't have the option to get into when she was a kid.
As for having a religious upbringing, there are certain benefits to growing up in a church community. It tends to be close knit, people tend to care for each other. The discipline that comes with a religious upbringing can be nice, too. Ultimately, I do feel that my religious upbringing was harmful for me, though I think it has to do more with the type of religion I was brought up with in combination with my upbringing. I've known other Christians where this wasn't the case, and their religious upbringing was a positive thing for them.
I can't really comment on anything more than being raised, since I don't really have kids of my own, and I don't really have much experience parenting... I do have plenty of ideas on how I would raise my child were I to have one, though, through the mistakes my parents made while raising me. They did their best, but there certainly were some things I would do differently. But until that's tested and I raise some kids of my own, my opinion doesn't really matter much, though.
rocala
Well-Known Member
Actually I do not spend much time on this forum so I hope "most folks" do not "know" and instead actually have a life. Good advice for all I think.
I see from your post that there are actually three generations residing at your 'home'. One of whom is clearly experiencing mental health issues. May I ask, with reference to the possibility of being rehoused, has this possibility been looked at?
It does seem a very depressing situation, and depression can sap one's energy for dealing with the problem. I do urge you to seek help.
I disagree. Parents are human too, and have their own worries and concerns. They will do things you disagree with and don't like, that's partly how we learn and grow. You should be able to go to them for support, but they shouldn't have all the answers.
I'm not suggesting they have answers, but that they at least be there in some capacity. I think that's something yous set yourself up for once you have a child.
As he actually owns the house, it is very difficult to do anything with him. His parents pay all the bills, however.
A parent should teach by example. It's not indoctrination when someone 'walks the talk'. Otherwise kids very early learn all about hypocrisy.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
To not be like my parents is a good start. My dad would talk about constantly being with women he worked with, would go out of his way for them, and said things a married man shouldn't be saying (especially in front of his kids amd wife). He left one night, they divorced, they got back together, he did it again. When my brother died, my brother's step daughters where at his funeral. They were problems and issues, but my dad was a ***** and had the nerve to ask why they showed up and he refused to drop the ****. He was also so absent it's impossible for me to determine when he left because there is no point of reference for when dad was around and when he wasn't.
My mom is authoritarian, extremely so, and she believes her iron fisted rule and breaking someone into total submission is how to raise them and install proper values (all she did was teach me how to see her every hypocrisy, give me an urge to use everything she taught me against her, and to fear the consequences and getting caught more than learning right from wrong). I've done nothing right or well, every flaw and fault is put under a microscope, and her parenting has resulted in all three kids not doing well in life who are ****ed in the head.
My mom is authoritarian, extremely so, and she believes her iron fisted rule and breaking someone into total submission is how to raise them and install proper values (all she did was teach me how to see her every hypocrisy, give me an urge to use everything she taught me against her, and to fear the consequences and getting caught more than learning right from wrong). I've done nothing right or well, every flaw and fault is put under a microscope, and her parenting has resulted in all three kids not doing well in life who are ****ed in the head.
epronovost
Well-Known Member
How is that going to make people better at parenting? Parenting isn't something you can actually "teach", much like you can't teach people to make friends, find a spouse or a purpose for their life. You can give tips and help build core social skills, but there isn't any thing that can be done to overall "improve the quality of parents" through a moralistic stance like that. You can't "scold or preach" people into better behavior. It's why most people hate moralists and preachers alike and will sometime even do the opposite just to spite them. At best, you could improve the overall economic and education level of the population and hope this will lead to people to be more responsible toward their decision to have children and how to raise them. That or you want severe restrictions on who can be a parent and remove that liberty from people in general.
exchemist
Veteran Member
My God, he sounds worse than Megan Markle's dad.
How old is this guy? I'm a bit confused, now , since you say he fights with HIS dad. And where is your mother in all of this?
Are you all in a 3 generation household?
(Excuse me for being nosey and do tell me it's none of my business if you prefer.)
My mother split from him when I was 6 months old and I lived with her most of my life.My God, he sounds worse than Megan Markle's dad.
How old is this guy? I'm a bit confused, now , since you say he fights with HIS dad. And where is your mother in all of this?
Are you all in a 3 generation household?
(Excuse me for being nosey and do tell me it's none of my business if you prefer.)
He is 48.
Yep we are, me, him, and his parents.
exchemist
Veteran Member
So how did you end up now with him? Sounds, er, suboptimal.
Mom essentially made me move out when we hit hard times financially. I was unable to find work, unable to open a bank account as I had no ID and such.
exchemist
Veteran Member
Oh dear. I see. So basically you need work, then, to get out of this situation.
What a lot of people seem to miss, and what I think you may be missing here, is the fact that growing up doesn't mean that we automatically cease being the child that we were.
Psychologically we don't metamorph, we develop in layers. We put one layer on top of another layer but that doesn't mean that the previous layer isnt still there with all of its components intact.
Just because as adults we've consciously chosen new beliefs over old ones, that doesn't mean those old beliefs aren't still swimming around somewhere in our subconscious, informing our decisions and, to a some extent (maybe a big one) shaping our present worldview, whether we realize it or not.
I'm convinced this has a lot to do with why we see so many angry atheists these days: they want to walk away from their religious upbringing, they think they have, but they sense that some part of themselves is still there and and some level still believes everything they were taught.
It creates a lot of uncomfortable conflict in a lot of people, and even when they realize it's going on they're not sure what to do about it.
I think a lot of the hostility we see coming from anti-religious people is just a redirection of personal frustration from the fact that in spite of having left the church, for reasons they may not even understand they still have this inner-choir boy buried in their subconscious, quaking at the thought of going to hell.
That principal extends to every facet of our psychology: unless we go back to the source and try to make an objective evaluation of everything involved in our development, all the lessons, morals, values that we were brought up with are still going to have a very real hold on us, regardless of what we believe now.
One extremely useful tool in this process is identifying the lessons that your parents taught you, evaluating their worth, recognizing the part these lessons still play in your world view, and then updating, disgarding and/or replacing whatever values or morals these lessons instilled in you.
Or put another way: you have to understand that your parents are ****ed up and in what ways they're ****ed up and in what ways they ****-ed you up if you want to become un****ed.
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osgart
Nothing my eye, Something for sure
I think being a parent is about showing love and trying to inspire your children. Who they become is their choice.
You give them your best and teach them your best, and hope they do better.
Since I'm accepting of free will and self responsibility I would try to inform them that virtues and values are the way to go. Nothing worth doing is ever done without an upright value system.
I would hope as a parent that my children would not expect perfection and idealistic parenthood.
I think it's best to just be yourself, and keep the communication open. If I can't admit faults of my own, then I'm probably coming across the wrong way.
The main thing about discipline is to discourage bad behaviour, and encourage good behaviour.
Let the children learn for themselves, and provide them safety so they can do so.
But if I had to instill something in them it's that I won't tolerate hatred, mockery, deceitful bs, nor flippant attitudes. And the other thing is I would want them to stand up for themselves and for what they know is right.
I think the way not to tolerate bad things from children is to take away freedoms, and privileges. I don't believe that spanking is necessary, but it's harmless.
Parents are teachers. But you have to create a positive environment for them. Without positives, the negatives don't mean much in my eyes.
And if they fall, and get into bad things and bad influences, then all you can do is correct them.
At some age and at some time they are completely responsible for themselves. At that point all I can do is be a friend to them.
You give them your best and teach them your best, and hope they do better.
Since I'm accepting of free will and self responsibility I would try to inform them that virtues and values are the way to go. Nothing worth doing is ever done without an upright value system.
I would hope as a parent that my children would not expect perfection and idealistic parenthood.
I think it's best to just be yourself, and keep the communication open. If I can't admit faults of my own, then I'm probably coming across the wrong way.
The main thing about discipline is to discourage bad behaviour, and encourage good behaviour.
Let the children learn for themselves, and provide them safety so they can do so.
But if I had to instill something in them it's that I won't tolerate hatred, mockery, deceitful bs, nor flippant attitudes. And the other thing is I would want them to stand up for themselves and for what they know is right.
I think the way not to tolerate bad things from children is to take away freedoms, and privileges. I don't believe that spanking is necessary, but it's harmless.
Parents are teachers. But you have to create a positive environment for them. Without positives, the negatives don't mean much in my eyes.
And if they fall, and get into bad things and bad influences, then all you can do is correct them.
At some age and at some time they are completely responsible for themselves. At that point all I can do is be a friend to them.