samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I would expect to see much more than flowery words.
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Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles
- Thread starter SeekingAllTruth
- Start date
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
2 things to consider.
First, it's widely agreed that the gospel of Mark was written down roughly around 66-71AD, about 35 years or so after Christ.
That guarantees a statistical outcome:
That among the tens of thousands that would hear him preach in 3 years of traveling and talking to crowds, some that were younger -- ages 15-22 or so -- some portion would still be alive 35 years later when Mark was written down.
Living eye witnesses still alive in 70AD, as Mark was written down.
But that for me leads to a 2nd aspect.
If you yourself heard perfectly all said by a traveling public speaker -- that would not make his/her ideas correct.
Ideas aren't correct simply if they are perfectly recorded.
So, I did not rely on any belief about the text. None at all. (not for nor against; also I was an atheist)
I'd tested the things in the text -- because there is plenty that can be tested.
It's merely rational. If you listened to some person talking about techniques for better health or such, you'd ideally not believe nor disbelieve. You'd test the ideas, and/or seek out those that had tested them.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives brilliant shining light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds no light, he knows the truth!”
(Me, Religious Forums)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That is separate from faith. One can have faith without love.
No, Jesus is not God, only in your imagination is Jesus God.
This is how Christians try to claim superiority over every other religion but it won’t work because Jesus is not God, and Jesus is not “better” than any other Manifestation of God.
Top 10 Reasons Why Jesus is not God
I see that no Trinitarians showed up to my thread to try to refute what was said in the video.
No, people did not speak that way, but Baha’u’llah was not a person, He was a Manifestation of God, and they tend to speak differently than ordinary people.
The Holy Spirit is not a person so it did not have a ministry. Jesus was a person who had a ministry. The Holy Spirit was the Bounty of God that was sent to Jesus by God and Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to humanity. The Holy Spirit was sent again when God sent it to Baha’u’llah in the Black Pit prison.
The Life of Baha’u’llah, a photographic narrative
Baha’u’llah was the Spirit of Truth as written in Acts 2. Acts 2:17-21 was spoken by the prophet Joel, and it was a prophecy that referred to the last days, the days when Christ would return.
The Holy Spirit was sent at Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4), but it was sent again in the last days that we are now living in. In that same chapter in which we find the Pentecost account, we have (Acts 2:17-21) showing that God would once again pour out His Spirit upon all flesh in the last days:
Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Acts 2:17-21And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Acts 2:17-21 is a prophecy and it has been fulfilled by the coming of Baha’u’llah.
All these wonders in the heavens and signs on the earth happened before Baha’u’llah appeared, and thus He fulfilled the prophecies for the Return of Christ.
Rev 6:12-13 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood. And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mark 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
All the details regarding the fulfillment of these prophecies and all the other prophecies for the return of Christ are delineated in the book Thief in the Night by William Sears.
The Holy Spirit might guide us in our everyday lives but it does not do the following things that are in John 14, 15 and 16; only a person could do those things. The Holy Spirit is not a person, it is a Spirit! That is why it is called the Holy Spirit.
· Teach you all things
· Call to remembrance what Jesus said
· Testify of Jesus
· Glorify Jesus, receive of Jesus, and shew it unto you
· Guide you into all truth
· Speak what He hears and shew you things to come
· Reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment
Baha’u’llah did all of these things.
John 14:26 ... he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come.... he shall testify of me:
John 16:8.... he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
John 16:13-14 .... when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Jesus promised to send the Comforter and the Spirit of truth.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Baha’u’llah was the Comforter and the Spirit of truth. One of the various proofs of that is that Baha’u’llah did exactly what Jesus said the Comforter and Spirit of truth would do. Referring to Jesus as the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah testified of Jesus and glorified Jesus.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
John 16:13-14 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
“Know thou that when the Son of Man yielded up His breath to God, the whole creation wept with a great weeping. By sacrificing Himself, however, a fresh capacity was infused into all created things. Its evidences, as witnessed in all the peoples of the earth, are now manifest before thee. The deepest wisdom which the sages have uttered, the profoundest learning which any mind hath unfolded, the arts which the ablest hands have produced, the influence exerted by the most potent of rulers, are but manifestations of the quickening power released by His transcendent, His all-pervasive, and resplendent Spirit.
We testify that when He came into the world, He shed the splendor of His glory upon all created things. Through Him the leper recovered from the leprosy of perversity and ignorance. Through Him, the unchaste and wayward were healed. Through His power, born of Almighty God, the eyes of the blind were opened, and the soul of the sinner sanctified.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 86
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There was a lot more than that. It's called evidence.
Some time ago when asked for evidence I posted the claims of Baha’u’llah and the evidence that supports the claims of Baha’u’llah on this thread:
Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
By all rights, you could test the ideas in the scriptures of other religions, not just the New Testament, and come up with the same outcome, so what does that tell you?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Fine, but that only works if you have gone into the next room.
Reading a few quotes I have posted from Gleanings does not qualify as "going into the next room."
Clearly, you just want to believe what you already believe, and you have no interest in finding out if anything is in the next room. It does not even occur to you that you could be wrong and the consequences if you are wrong. Baha'u'llah told us what the consequences will be. We will not receive the reward we could have had.
“O My servants! It behoveth you to refresh and revive your souls through the gracious favors which, in this Divine, this soul-stirring Springtime, are being showered upon you. The Day Star of His great glory hath shed its radiance upon you, and the clouds of His limitless grace have overshadowed you. How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire.” Gleanings, p. 167
“He who shall accept and believe, shall receive his reward; and he who shall turn away, shall receive none other than his own punishment.” Gleanings, p. 339
By contrast to Christians who believe that they have everything they will ever need, even though I have a room I am comfortable in I have ventured into the next room to see what was in the Bible because I have nothing to fear, since I already believed in Jesus and always will, since that is a requirement for Baha'is. And lo! I found some very illuminating things in the next room!
Matthew 24:35 “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
I agree. Lots of stuff Jesus purportedly said was very rational.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
You don't have to believe me. Believe a very respected Bible historian who knows what he is talking about--like Ehrman.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Can you quote something He said which is irrational?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
Is it OK with you if I believe other Bible historians who know what they're talking about?
halbhh
The wonder and awe of "all things".
I did, at least in part, by doing the same practices as several other religion's devotees were doing....
While it would probably take decades to test every religion that has more than a hundred thousand adherents worldwide, I did test at least some that were common or made available at times around central Texas, spending hour(s) doing some of their practices just like the devoted were doing, joining them.
I don't know if you noticed me referencing that, but I guess it wasn't clear: I tested several widespread practices from wisdom traditions (i.e. 'religions') from around the world. Along with ideas from philosophers/thinkers and such that weren't really a religion. I tested a lot of varied practices and ideas, some for hours, some for dozens of hours. Eventually, as you know yourself better, you begin to notice how you respond to something sooner, with just an hour or 2, instead of 20. But I did indeed do things where the instruction was it would take 4 or 5 or 8 hours to get there, and did the whole thing fully -- that more lengthy stuff too.
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
lol you think ehrman doesn't know what he's talking about because he says the gospels are not reliable history. Only Christian historians with a bias know what they're talking about. That's rich.Is it OK with you if I believe other Bible historians who know what they're talking about?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Sure start with I am the only way the truth and the life. no one comes to God except through me. Pure propaganda.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Is the Pope Catholic?
SeekingAllTruth
Well-Known Member
Let's hear what samtonga thinks.Is the Pope Catholic?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
If it is true, and I believe it is true, can it be irrational? Is your definition of 'irrational' something you do not believe to be true?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
If it is true, and you believe it is true, does that mean it is rational? Is your definition of 'rational' something you believe to be true? This argument about the Bible cuts both ways.
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
I have been reading Ehrman for years and I agree that he is highly respected in his field. Does this mean I ought to believe everything he says, and agree with his every conclusion? Are you really saying that the Gospels are not reliable because Ehrman says so?lol you think ehrman doesn't know what he's talking about because he says the gospels are not reliable history. Only Christian historians with a bias know what they're talking about. That's rich.
Have you read anyone else on this subject?
samtonga43
Well-Known Member
No and No.