Jesus' Four Failed Prophecies About Him Returning In The Lifetimes Of His Apostles

[samtonga43]

This parable is not about justification by faith vs. works. Below is what it means, exactly what I said it means before I looked on the internet to find out what others thought it means.

Here is another point of view which shows what it really means when one goes beneath the surface:
What is the meaning of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector? | GotQuestions.org
The tax collector was justified by God, because of faith.
The Pharisee was self-justifying because of works. (a rigorous adherence to ceremonies and traditions).

 

[Trailblazer]

It had everything to do with sin.

‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ does not mean the parable is about sin; clearly it isn't about sin, it is about faith..

The tax collector was justified by faith, not works. The Pharisee was not justified because he had works, not faith.

I can go along with that. The tax collector was justified by God because he was humble and had faith in God whereas the Pharisee was not justified by God because he was arrogant, proud of his piousness.

"for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[Trailblazer]

Here is another point of view which shows what it really means when one goes beneath the surface:
What is the meaning of the Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector? | GotQuestions.org
The tax collector was justified by God, because of faith.
The Pharisee was self-justifying because of works. (a rigorous adherence to ceremonies and traditions).

I can go along with that, as I said in the previous post.

* * * * * * * * * * * *
By the way, the Bab wrote that deeds are secondary to faith in Baha'u'llah (Him Whom God shall make manifest):

“Wert thou to open the heart of a single soul by helping him to embrace the Cause of Him Whom God shall make manifest, thine inmost being would be filled with the inspirations of that august Name. It devolveth upon you, therefore, to perform this task in the Days of Resurrection, inasmuch as most people are helpless, and wert thou to open their hearts and dispel their doubts, they would gain admittance into the Faith of God. Therefore, manifest thou this attribute to the utmost of thine ability in the days of Him Whom God shall make manifest. For indeed if thou dost open the heart of a person for His sake, better will it be for thee than every virtuous deed; since deeds are secondary to faith in Him and certitude in His Reality. XVII, 15.”
Selections From the Writings of the Báb, p. 133

Baha'u'llah also wrote that deeds are secondary to faith in Him, Who is the Day Spring of God's Revelation and the Fountain of God's laws:

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331

The Twin Duties

 

[samtonga43]

I can go along with that, as I said in the previous post.

Good!
Justification by faith, not by works.
At last!

 

[Trailblazer]

Good!
Justification by faith, not by works.
At last!

The Bab and and Baha'u'llah also said that faith was trumps deeds in case you did not see the passages I just added.
#1843 Trailblazer, Today at 4:15 PM

That does not mean deeds don't matter, they do matter, but without faith they are unacceptable to God.

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire. The fruits of the human tree are exquisite, highly desired and dearly cherished. Among them are upright character, virtuous deeds and a goodly utterance.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257

The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree

6Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree that was planted in his vineyard. He went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the keeper of the vineyard, ‘Look, for the past three years I have come to search for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Therefore cut it down!a Why should it use up the soil?’

8‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone again this year, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine. But if not, you can cut it down.’ ”

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

It's unambiguously Christ in His true glory. Also, whenever He was near a place, the Kingdom was near: Matthew 4:17 From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near." (and other places)

So, regardless of other events, this event is Christ in His glory, and in His Kingdom. And the 3 witnessed it.

Every Christian has their own personal opinion/bias about who Jesus was is, what he accomplished and how he works today, all of it based on gospels that were written by strangers who didn't hear Jesus speak word 1 when they were writing 50-100 years later and using no sources that we know of for what they wrote. The gospels might as well have been billed a Harry Potter-style set of novels where all the dialogue is invented in the writers' minds because that exactly what happened. How do gospel writers know for certain what Jesus said down to the word when they weren't in Palestine at the time, couldn't have talked to any eyewitnesses, and had no records from which to draw Jesus' words? It's all fiction.

 

[samtonga43]

The Bab and and Baha'u'llah also said that faith was trumps deeds in case you did not see the passages I just added. That does not mean deeds don't matter, they do matter, but without faith they are unacceptable to God.

What does faith in God mean to you, Tb

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire. The fruits of the human tree are exquisite, highly desired and dearly cherished. Among them are upright character, virtuous deeds and a goodly utterance.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257
The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree
6Then Jesus told this parable: “A man had a fig tree that was planted in his vineyard. He went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any. 7So he said to the keeper of the vineyard, ‘Look, for the past three years I have come to search for fruit on this fig tree and haven’t found any. Therefore cut it down!a Why should it use up the soil?’
8‘Sir,’ the man replied, ‘leave it alone again this year, until I dig around it and fertilize it. 9If it bears fruit next year, fine. But if not, you can cut it down.’ ”

I think Jesus said it better. He knew that people learn much more from parables than from preachy 17th Century prose.

 

[samtonga43]

...all the dialogue is invented in the writers' minds because that exactly what happened.

Evidence?

 

[samtonga43]

“The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Day Spring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof, hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 330-331
The Twin Duties

A duty? That's a strange word to use if the will is free.

 

[samtonga43]

Every Christian has their own personal opinion/bias about who Jesus was is, what he accomplished and how he works today, all of it based on gospels that were written by strangers who didn't hear Jesus speak word 1 when they were writing 50-100 years later and using no sources that we know of for what they wrote. The gospels might as well have been billed a Harry Potter-style set of novels where all the dialogue is invented in the writers' minds because that exactly what happened. How do gospel writers know for certain what Jesus said down to the word when they weren't in Palestine at the time, couldn't have talked to any eyewitnesses, and had no records from which to draw Jesus' words? It's all fiction.

This may answer your questions, SAT:
The Gospels Are Fact Not Folklore

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

This may answer your questions, SAT:
The Gospels Are Fact Not Folklore

Now why did I know this was going to be a Christian article? The article is focused mainly on oral tradition--as if the apostles could hear Jesus speak the sermon on the mounts ONCE and then could remember it nearly verbatim to pass on to other converts like a GD game of telephone. I don't buy it.

People may have had vague ideas about things Jesus said like, "Treat others like you want to be treated" but no way could John remember the last supper discourse. It's all made up by churchmen who were forming their church doctrine at the time and made Jesus say what they wanted him to say so they could claim, "See? This is what Jesus wants you to believe because we have it on reliable source." Baloney.

 

[SeekingAllTruth]

Now why did I know this was going to be a Christian article? The article is focused mainly on oral tradition--as if the apostles could hear Jesus speak the sermon on the mounts ONCE and then could remember it nearly verbatim to pass on to other converts like a GD game of telephone. I don't buy it.

People may have had vague ideas about things Jesus said like, "Treat others like you want to be treated" but IMHO no way could John remember the last supper discourse. It's all made up by churchmen who were forming their church doctrine at the time and made Jesus say what they wanted him to say so they could claim, "See? This is what Jesus wants you to believe because we have it on reliable source." Baloney.
Ehrman”s Statement: The New Testament Gospels Are Historically Unreliable Accounts of Jesus

Ehrman''s Statement: The New Testament Gospels Are Historically Unreliable Accounts of Jesus - TheBestSchools.org

 

[Trailblazer]

What does faith in God mean to you, Tb

It is complete trust and confidence in God.

I think Jesus said it better. He knew that people learn much more from parables than from preachy 17th Century prose.

Jesus always has to be better doesn't He? But in the sight of God, Jesus is not better than Baha'u'llah or any of the other Manifestations of God.

It is not 17th century prose, it is 19th century prose, and it is not "preachy."

I spared you the whole passage before, but you just earned it. As you can see, Baha'u'llah said some things that Jesus did not say in His parable. This was part of the "many things" that Jesus said in John 16:12-14, the things hat people "could not bear" to hear until 1852 AD.

“Man is like unto a tree. If he be adorned with fruit, he hath been and will ever be worthy of praise and commendation. Otherwise a fruitless tree is but fit for fire. The fruits of the human tree are exquisite, highly desired and dearly cherished. Among them are upright character, virtuous deeds and a goodly utterance. The springtime for earthly trees occurreth once every year, while the one for human trees appeareth in the Days of God—exalted be His glory. Were the trees of men’s lives to be adorned in this divine Springtime with the fruits that have been mentioned, the effulgence of the light of Justice would, of a certainty, illumine all the dwellers of the earth and everyone would abide in tranquillity and contentment beneath the sheltering shadow of Him Who is the Object of all mankind. The Water for these trees is the living water of the sacred Words uttered by the Beloved of the world. In one instant are such trees planted and in the next their branches shall, through the outpourings of the showers of divine mercy, have reached the skies. A dried-up tree, however, hath never been nor will be worthy of any mention.” Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 257

 

[Trailblazer]

A duty? That's a strange word to use if the will is free.

It is a duty that people an choose to take seriously or not.

 

[Alex22]

Yes, Christ is a title for Jesus but Jesus is not the only man who ever brought the Christ Spirit.
No, Christ is not a title for Baha'u'llah, but Baha'u'llah brought the Christ Spirit.

Jesus never promised to return to earth in the same body, He promised to send the Christ Spirit who He referred to as the Comforter and the Spirit of Truth. The Bible prophecies did not fail because the Comforter/Spirit of truth did come, in the person of Baha'u'llah.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

John 16:12-13 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Sure, many cult leaders have claimed to be Christ or be the Comforter like Charles Manson and numerous others loonies, I see no reason to believe any of them in including your Baha'u'llah fellow.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure, many cult leaders have claimed to be Christ or be the Comforter like Charles Manson and numerous others loonies, I see no reason to believe any of them in including your Baha'u'llah fellow.

Your choice.
The only good reason to believe in Baha'u'llah is because of the evidence that backs up His claims.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

If course if you never look at the evidence you will never know if He was who He claimed to be. That's simple logic.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

 

[Alex22]

Your choice.
The only good reason to believe in Baha'u'llah is because of the evidence that backs up His claims.

Questions for knowledgeable Bahai / followers of Baha'u'llah

If course if you never look at the evidence you will never know if He was who He claimed to be. That's simple logic.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103

I don't see any evidence whatsoever.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't see any evidence whatsoever.

That all depends upon what you consider to be evidence.
If a man was a Messenger of God and the return of Christ, what evidence would you expect to see?

 

[samtonga43]

This may answer your questions, SAT:

Now why did I know this was going to be a Christian article?

"The Gospels Are Fact Not Folklore"
Maybe because of the title? What do you think?

The article is focused mainly on oral tradition--as if the apostles could hear Jesus speak the sermon on the mounts ONCE and then could remember it nearly verbatim to pass on to other converts like a GD game of telephone. I don't buy it.

That's because you don't understand the concept of oral testimony.

People may have had vague ideas about things Jesus said like, "Treat others like you want to be treated" but no way could John remember the last supper discourse. It's all made up by churchmen who were forming their church doctrine at the time and made Jesus say what they wanted him to say so they could claim, "See? This is what Jesus wants you to believe because we have it on reliable source." Baloney.

A perfect example of black / white thinking. Either...
John remembered the exact events of that very dramatic event in detail
or
"it's all made up".

 

[samtonga43]

It is complete trust and confidence in God.

What about love?

Jesus always has to be better doesn't He? But in the sight of God, Jesus is not better than Baha'u'llah or any of the other Manifestations of God.

Duh! Of course He has to be better! He is the Second Person of the Trinity. How could He not be better?

It is not 17th century prose, it is 19th century prose, and it is not "preachy."

People did not speak this way in the 19th Century. It is very preachy, and very verbose.

I spared you the whole passage before, but you just earned it. As you can see, Baha'u'llah said some things that Jesus did not say in His parable. This was part of the "mamy things" that Jesus sais in John 16:12-14 that people were not ready to hear 2000 years ago.

Nonsense. The Holy Spirit’s ministry is to reveal Jesus to us, to bear testimony of Jesus (John15:26). Therefore, there can be no additions, no pseudo-revelations after or apart from Christ. The Spirit testifies to the things of Christ, not any ‘new thing’. Christ is ETERNALLY the Second Person of the Trinity.
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.” John 16:12-15