Socially Right, Economically Left

epronovost · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
Oh wow. So it's your way or the highway. How very liberal.

Either we are all equal and free or we are not. No, I have no simpathy for someone who says, "we are all equal and free, except for the following types of people" and then proceed to name people that aren't like him/her. I'm in favor of justice, equality and liberty, not some sort of ridiculous aquiescence to all the ideologies under the sun under the pretence that these are equally valid and somehow compatible; that you can have a society where people of all gender and sexual orientation can be equal while a significant portion of the population wishes the opposite. That's a non-sense. I'm also against violence, but that doesn't mean that I oppose prison sentences against people who commit criminal act of violence.

Rival · Mar 30, 2021

epronovost said:
Either we are all equal and free or we are not. No, I have no simpathy for someone who says, "we are all equal and free, except for the following type of people and then proceed to name people that aren't like him". I'm in favor of justice, equality and liberty, not some sort of ridiculous aquiescence to all the ideologies under the sun under the pretence that these are equally valid and somehow compatible. I'm also against violence, but that doesn't mean that I oppose prison sentences against people who commit criminal act of violence.

Where did I say I don't think folks are equal? Seriously.

epronovost · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
Where did I say I don't think folks are equal? Seriously.

Well if you can get married and an homosexual can't. You aren't equal.

If you say men should do XYZ while women should do ABC and those who don't should be shamed or looked at weirdly. Then people aren't equal and free either.

Isn't what you said you supported? Did I missed something or were you ignorant of the consequences of those beliefs?

Rival · Mar 30, 2021

epronovost said:
Well if you can get married and an homosexual can't. You aren't equal.

If you say men should do XYZ while women should do ABC and those who don't should be shamed or looked at weirdly. Then people aren't equal and free either.

Isn't what you said you supported? Did I missed something or were you ignorant of the consequences of those beliefs?

I believe all humans are equal before G-d in dignity and worth. Marriage, however, is a sacred bond that, to me, can only be sanctified by a man and a woman. I would allow gay marriage on the state, but would allow religious institutions to pull out. Man and woman marriage is the norm all throughout the world, do you think folks just pulled this out of their rears? It's because it's two opposites coming together to create a whole.
Sex based differences exist at the basest psychological level. I'm not saying every woman should be a housewife; I'm saying we should set up society so that she can be if she wants. Not sure what's wrong with that.

Kooky · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
What is this called and why is it not represented?

It's often called a "Christian Democratic" ideology because of its historically close ties to the Roman Catholic Church in Europe and its ideological basis in Catholic social teachings of the late 19th century. I have also encountered the term "Progressive conservatism" or "Progressivism", after Theodore Roosevelt's Progressive Party.

As for why it is not represented more - it may be because the people who commonly care very much about social issues generally do not care about the welfare state unless it directly benefits them. Another possible cause may be that in conservative movements, the social issues commonly exist in order to justify the economic ones, or in order to distract from them. We can see this especially in the US Republican party, which since the 1970s has relied strongly on social "wedge issues" in order to sensure the success of its strongly pro-corporate agenda, but since then this tactic has been adopted by many right-wing parties throughout Europe, with xenophobia and marriage equality commonly taking the place of very US-specific wedge issues such as abortion.

Suave · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
So having any kind of mainstream RW views is 'bigotry' now? Cool. No wonder no-one wants to say they believe these things when we are treated like this.

Respecting women reproductive rights, is the consensus societal view, opposing this is sexist. Recognizing same sex marital relationships is the consensus societal view, opposing this is homophobic.

Rival · Mar 30, 2021

Suave said:
Respecting women reproductive rights, is the consensus societal view, opposing this is sexist. Recognizing same sex marital relationships is the consensus societal view, opposing this is homophobic.

So not allowing folks to do whatever they want is -ist.

I'm a girl and I do not support abortion. I also have sexual feelings for other women and I do not support gay marriage. Glad we could get this out of the way.

epronovost · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
I believe all humans are equal before G-d in dignity and worth. Marriage, however, is a sacred bond that, to me, can only be sanctified by a man and a woman. I would allow gay marriage on the state, but would allow religious institutions to pull out. Man and woman marriage is the norm all throughout the world, do you think folks just pulled this out of their rears? It's because it's two opposites coming together to create a whole.

And that's the very definition of bigotry. Your entire argument boils down to, my magic dude says you can't do it and we used to consider my magic dude very seriously so we should keep doing it. It's textbook fallacious appeal to tradition that seems to ignore that people who are married don't always have children and that homosexual/bisexual can also have kids either through adoption, artifical insemination, surrogate pregnancy or prior heterosexual relation.

Sex based differences exist at the basest psychological level. I'm not saying every woman should be a housewife; I'm saying we should set up society so that she can be if she wants. Not sure what's wrong with that.

That's practically meaningless. Women can and often are housewives. The opposite is also true, some men are "housemen". Saying "I want women to be able to be housewives" is just like saying "I want women to be able to be hairdressers". Nobody is preventing them from doing that. Do you have the same desire for men to be able to be "housemen"?

Here's a better question. One of my younger sister is a financial and personnel administrator in a luxury hotel of my city. Is it a fine and well ambition for little girls to aspire to? Here's another one. My youngest sister is a NCO in a combat unit of the Canadian army. Is t a fine and well ambition for little girls to aspire to?

epronovost · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
So not allowing folks to do whatever they want is -ist. I'm a girl and I do not support abortion. I also have sexual feelings for other women and I do not support gay marriage. Glad we could get this out of the way.

You can be a misogynistic woman and a homophobic homosexual too you know. Bigotry knows no boundary of the sort.

JustGeorge · Mar 30, 2021

But if one labels another to be a bigot because of this view or the other, and then wants to deny their right to do X and Z, isn't that just as bigoted?

Suave · Mar 30, 2021

Rival said:
So not allowing folks to do whatever they want is -ist. I'm a girl and I do not support abortion. I also have sexual feelings for other women and I do not support gay marriage. Glad we could get this out of the way.

Please let us agree that any two consenting adults should be allowed to love each other however they wish. Also, please let us agree to respect the medical privacy of impregnated women who refuse to carry a fetus from the embryo's conception until the many months later that it takes to be developed well enough to survive outside its mother's womb.

Rival · Mar 31, 2021

Suave said:
Also, please let us agree to respect the medical privacy of impregnated women who refuse to carry a fetus from the embryo's conception until the many months later that it takes to be developed well enough to survive out

I do not agree with what I see as murder, no.

Rival · Mar 31, 2021

epronovost said:
And that's the very definition of bigotry. Your entire argument boils down to, my magic dude says you can't do it and we used to consider my magic dude very seriously so we should keep doing it. It's textbook fallacious appeal to tradition that seems to ignore that people who are married don't always have children and that homosexual/bisexual can also have kids either through adoption, artifical insemination, surrogate pregnancy or prior heterosexual relation.

That's practically meaningless. Women can and often are housewives. The opposite is also true, some men are "housemen". Saying "I want women to be able to be housewives" is just like saying "I want women to be able to be hairdressers". Nobody is preventing them from doing that. Do you have the same desire for men to be able to be "housemen"?

Here's a better question. One of my younger sister is a financial and personnel administrator in a luxury hotel of my city. Is it a fine and well ambition for little girls to aspire to? Here's another one. My youngest sister is a NCO in a combat unit of the Canadian army. Is t a fine and well ambition for little girls to aspire to?

So I love this idea that's not really very low-key that having a career is better than being a housewife. I also love this idea that we can somehow now separate women from motherhood. Girls can aspire to whatever they want, but if they have kids I believe their primary duty is to be a mom for their kids - and actually be there for them.

Rival · Mar 31, 2021

Also, this thread isn't about me, nor is it a debate thread - but it is a really good example of why social conservatives are so angry and feel they can't post here.

Suave · Mar 31, 2021

2

Rival said:
I do not agree with what I see as murder, no.

A person is somebody who has experienced consciousness. Only people can be murdered. A fetus is not a conscious being, and therefore it is not a person. Because a fetus is not a person, it can't be murdered.

Rival · Mar 31, 2021

Suave said:
2

A person is somebody who has experienced consciousness. Only people can be murdered. A fetus is not a conscious being, and therefore it is not a person. Because a fetus is not a person, it can't be murdered.

I'm not drawing this out with you as it's not the point of this thread. However, you do not get to dictate to me when life begins. I believe it begins at conception and you aren't about to change my mind.

Gargovic Malkav · Mar 31, 2021

JustGeorge said:
But if one labels another to be a bigot because of this view or the other, and then wants to deny their right to do X and Z, isn't that just as bigoted?

That's a thing I see a lot with progressives these days, that they take their own morality for granted and thus feel they have the right to tell "bigots" how they should see or do things without feeling hypocritical about it.
This is probably because such opinions are very popular these days.

To stay on topic, maybe this is a reason why the political view Rival is talking about is so "underground".
That this view is too unorthodox to fit in the political dichotomies you see today, and thus doesn't get much attention because it doesn't make sense to many.

mikkel_the_dane · Mar 31, 2021

Rival said:
I've noticed a lot of religious folks hold this political position but it doesn't seem to be a votable one. There's no party I can think of in the UK or US, which which I'm most familiar, that represents this and is also worth voting for.

So this is the position:

Support for strong social welfare, benefits, NHS, free education, free school meals etc. As well as strongly traditional values such as loving the nuclear family, pro-life, pro gender roles, anti gay-marriage (even if just as performed by religious institutions) etc.

What is this called and why is it not represented?

Okay, as a discussion.
We align on support for strong social welfare, benefits, NHS, free education, free school meals etc.
We differ on strongly traditional values such as loving the nuclear family, pro-life, pro gender roles, anti gay-marriage (even if just as performed by religious institutions) etc.

But here is how I do it differently than some other US liberal(left social/left economically). I accept that you hold these positions, where we differ. Even if you wanted to use laws to uphold them for all humans. And I don't consider you wrong or any of these other negative words. I just don't agree with you, and I won't do it as you want, if you want it to be for all humans(laws) and I would fight you in the end. As for what you want to do as you in following these rules, you can do so.

Regards
Mikkel

Revoltingest · Mar 31, 2021

Rival said:
So having any kind of mainstream RW views is 'bigotry' now? Cool. No wonder no-one wants to say they believe these things when we are treated like this.

We sure can be judged harshly at times, eh.
But you should still express your views.
Even if you'd be a pariah in Revoltistan
(which isn't so bad).

epronovost · Mar 31, 2021

Rival said:
I also love this idea that we can somehow now separate women from motherhood.

Not all women are mothers so indeed you must seperate women from motherhood just like you must seperate men from fatherhood. A man shouldn't be defined by fatherhood anymore than a woman should be defined by motherhood if only because it's reductive of who they are, what they do and what they can or could do.

Girls can aspire to whatever they want, but if they have kids I believe their primary duty is to be a mom for their kids - and actually be there for them.

Fair and well. Do you ask the same of fathers? If not. You are sexist, by the very definition of the term due to that double standard. If yes, I don't agree with you, but your position would be fair and sensible.

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