The thief on the cross and jesus.Did they go to paradise underground?

Hockeycowboy said:

And there were no other days where He was going to die, either.
He couldn’t tell the thief ‘tomorrow.’

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I don't know what this answer has to do with the Watchtower wanting to ignore the many other places where Jesus says "Truly I tell you" and add the word "today" to that saying in this one place.
Surely my argument is the same type of argument that the Watchtower would use itself, and does, about other scriptures.
Imo it was good that Jesus could let the thief know that day that he would not be hanging there on the cross for days, waiting to die. That of course has nothing to do with where the comma goes, just like what you said has nothing to do with it.
Jesus actually could have said, "Truly I tell you, you will be with me in paradise."
That is really what you want Jesus to have said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but He did not, so the WT had to mess with the translation and all good JWs have to follow like the good sheep that they are.
This obvious messing with the translation for doctrinal reasons is just another evidence of the dishonesty of the WT and of the trust that JWs but in the Watchtower instead of in the scriptures, even while calling themselves Bible Students. I guess it's a bit like hard line Trump supporters believing all he has said even if they are themselves bright and educated people.
Then when I start saying too many things that JWs cannot answer there is a walking away and refusal to talk any more.
In the end all I can do is pray that your eyes will be opened while knowing that it could mean the ripping out of your heart by a heartless organisation who takes friends and family from people who want to leave.
Crikey what a mouthful I gave you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I hope you don't take it personally, all my arrows are against the deceit of the Watchtower even if it may be against the forum rules.

Deeje said:

Well, that is just the point....you don't take what the Bible says over our message because you interpret the Bible to suit your own beliefs. You don't need us to tell you that your ideas are not in line with Christ's teachings...he will do that. Go in peace...what have we got to tell you that you want to hear? See ya...

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I was trying to find out from Cataway if there were any scriptures that contradict the idea that there is something about mankind that lives on when the body dies. I don't know of any. I am not going to hold my breathe till I get an answer. As I said in the post I have just done, even though it was a bit over the top, in my experience when I start saying too many things that JWs cannot answer they run.

I do not believe Paradise is in Heaven nor on nor under the earth. I believe it is most likely on another planet.

Brian2 said:

No I did not miss that part. Jesus said that they would be in paradise together that day. The ascension was after that. The paradise Jesus was talking about is the same one Jesus spoke of in Luke 16 in the parable/story about Lazarus. It is the place where the souls of the dead go after death since the soul does not die at the death of the body. Some souls rest in peace, a paradise, and others do not it seems from scripture.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

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I believe I wouldn't put much stock in a fictional story which is what a parable is.

lostwanderingsoul said:

And what supports this besides your own biased religious beliefs. Jesus was NOT in paradise the same day he died so how could the thief be with him the same day? So what is your belief about where Jesus was on the day he died?

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I believe the scripture clearly states that the thief will be with Jesus in Paradise on that day.

Hi @Deeje, and @cataway and @Brian2;


ANCIENT LITERATURE OF SCRIPTURE VERSUS ANCIENT CHRISTIAN EXEGETIC LITERATURE

Deeje said : “You post reams of quotations from sources that we do not recognize as inspired...” (post #60)

Deeje, we are not speaking of the text of scripture, but rather we are referring to what the earliest and most authentic Christians say they believed and how they interpreted scripture. This does not require scripture, but rather we can look at what these earliest Christians said they believed in their diaries and lectionaries, and other literature.

For example,
The Jehovahs Witness Watch Tower magazine is not scripture.
But, we can read the Jehovahs Witness Watch Tower magazine since it is literature that explains Jehovah Witness doctrines and beliefs and reveals their interpretation of scripture.

Similarly, when Clement of the new Testament writes his letter to the Corinthians he is explaining the doctrines that the apostle Peter and Paul taught him and which he then taught to others. Such literature can tell us much about what the earliest and most authentic Christianity believed, what it taught, and how it understood and interpreted scripture.


WHY IS THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS SCHIZM WITH IT'S BELIEFS TO HAVE PRIORITY OVER THE BELIEFS OF CLEMENT WHO WAS A COLLEAGUE OF PETER AND PAUL?
Clement describes the apostle Peter and the apostle Pauls doctrines as being very different than your doctrines. He describes the apostle Peter and the apostle Pauls interpretations of scriptures that are very different than your interpretations.

The question is WHY should YOUR beliefs and your interpretations of scripture take priority over the beliefs and interpretations of Clement, who was a convert of the Apostle Peter and taught the Gospel with Paul and who was described by Paul as one of those “whose name are in the book of life.

Do you have an answer to this specific question?


SCHIZMS OCCURRED EARLY IN CHRISTIANITY - DOES THIS OCCURRENCE ANSWER THE QUESTION JEHOVAHS WITNESSES ARE BEING ASKED?
Deeje said : “We do not see that the "church", after the end of the first century, went in a good direction…” (post #60)

While I agree that many early Christian Schizms formed early on and that many conflicting doctrines arose (just as today there are many schizms with conflicting doctrines), the actually question was :

Why is YOUR specific Schizm with ITS specific conflicting doctrine and ITS conflicting interpretations of scripture to take priority over the earliest and most authentic Christianity espoused by Clement of the New Testament who was taught by the apostle Peter and who taught the gospel with the apostle Paul?

Your religion is not more consistent with scripture than theirs was.
Your religion has leas connection with apostolic doctrines than theirs did.
Your religion is no more logical or rational or intuitive than theirs was.

Are you claiming that Peter taught Clement an apostate religion?

Are you claiming Clement himself was an apostate?

Why is your schism with its doctrines and its interpretations to take priority over the Christianity of Clement and of the early apostles?


Clear
νεακτζω

Muffled said:

I believe I wouldn't put much stock in a fictional story which is what a parable is.

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There are opinions on whether the Luke 16 story of the rich man and Lazarus in Hades is more than a fictional story. I think that is based on the fact that the name of the Lazarus is given.
But I suppose those opinions do not really matter.
I do agree however with the idea that Jesus was teaching around things the people would have been familiar with (conscious existence in an afterlife realm called hades/sheol). The parable was not specifically saying that hades in that sense was a reality, but there was no denial of it's reality and possibly just an acceptance of it's reality by Jesus.
I don't think that Jesus was purposefully wanting to confuse the people He was speaking to and us with such a parable.
When I think about the parable I notice that Jesus actually told specifics about the realm (there is a gulf between the part of hades that Lazarus was in and the part that the rich man was in etc) and I doubt that He would have done that if hades does not exist as a place for the departed spirits of the dead.

Brian2 said:

There are opinions on whether the Luke 16 story of the rich man and Lazarus in Hades is more than a fictional story. I think that is based on the fact that the name of the Lazarus is given.
But I suppose those opinions do not really matter.
I do agree however with the idea that Jesus was teaching around things the people would have been familiar with (conscious existence in an afterlife realm called hades/sheol). The parable was not specifically saying that hades in that sense was a reality, but there was no denial of it's reality and possibly just an acceptance of it's reality by Jesus.
I don't think that Jesus was purposefully wanting to confuse the people He was speaking to and us with such a parable.
When I think about the parable I notice that Jesus actually told specifics about the realm (there is a gulf between the part of hades that Lazarus was in and the part that the rich man was in etc) and I doubt that He would have done that if hades does not exist as a place for the departed spirits of the dead.

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Actually Jesus said that the reason he spoke in parables was so that everyone would NOT understand. So it appears he WAS purposefully trying to confuse people.

lostwanderingsoul said:

Actually Jesus said that the reason he spoke in parables was so that everyone would NOT understand. So it appears he WAS purposefully trying to confuse people.

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Nevertheless Jesus used stories about the things the people knew about, fishing, farming, landlords, widows, hades, the bosom of Abraham etc.

There are quite a few places in the scripture that contradict the idea that there is NOT something about mankind that lives on after death.
If I go to the Witch of Endor story (1Sam 28) I see Samuel coming up from a place of rest and giving a correct prophecy for Saul. Nothing in the text suggests it was not Samuel, in fact he is called Samuel in the text. The only objection comes from the WT's need for it not to be Samuel. The WT says that God would not use a witch for His purposes, but God even uses Satan for His purposes in Job and God uses what could be described as Jacob's pagan ways to increase the wealth of Jacob with striped and not striped sticks in front of his flocks at breeding time.(Gen 30)
I go from here to the Transfiguration where Moses and Elijah come from the dead and speak to Jesus. (Moses certainly died and there is evidence also that Elijah died later after being taken up).(Matt 17)
I can speak of the words of Jesus about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being alive. (Mark 12:27)
I can speak of Jesus words saying that those that kill the body cannot kill the soul. (Matt 10:28) Even if God remembers them their soul is still dead in WT theology. That WT idea is a clutching at straws imo. If Jesus meant that then neither the body nor the soul would die when the body is killed because God remembers them and can recreate them.
And yes it would be a recreation of a copy and not a resurrection if God recreated someone.
I could speak about the souls under the altar who spoke to Jesus (Rev 6:9)
I could mention the description of our bodies as tents that we live in. (2Cor 5:1-8) and that leaving these tents means we will be with the Lord.
I could speak of the soul of the child which came back into the body when Elijah prayed to God. (1Kings 17:21)
I could speak of Lazarus and the rich man in hades with Abraham.
I could speak of the spirits of the dead stirring at the arrival of the King of Babylon (Isa 14:9-11)
I could mention Jesus body not seeing decay and His soul not being left in Sheol (Ps 16:10, Acts 2:27)
I could mention Eccles 9:5-10 where Solomon speaks of the state of the dead and how they are not aware of the earth or life they left and everything about it is gone for them, including what they loved and hated and were jealous of and Solomon goes on to say that the living will go to the realm of the dead, where they will not work nor plan nor have knowledge or wisdom.
There is nothing there about the dead going out of existence, especially when it says they will go to the realm of the dead.
I could mention the creation of Adam when God formed the body our of dirt and gave spirit to Adam.(Gen 2:7) So the whole of Adam, body plus spirit was a living soul/being.
If there is no spirit, that means that the body of Adam is the soul, but even WT theology disagrees with that idea.
The whole person is the soul and when the body dies the spirit leaves ( or should I say when the spirit leaves, the body dies) and the body is called a dead soul and the spirit is now the whole of the person, it is the living part and is called a soul, as we have seen in other scriptures. The life and consciousness that the body had and which has lived in the body, has become the soul, which is the essence of the person and is resurrected by being joined to another body.
Jesus brings with Him those who have fallen asleep in Him and it is then that they are resurrected into new bodies. (1Thess 4:13-18) How is Jesus able to bring them if they are not in existence? Amongst them would be the souls of those from under the altar in heaven (Rev 6).
This is a big topic and joined to it is the doctrine of what hades/sheol is also and that complicates it but the scriptures I gave point also to the right concept of hades as well as the existence of something in man that exists after death. These scriptures contradict the WT doctrines and I don't know of any scriptures that contradict the idea of no spirit in man which lives on after death.
The WT always seem to want to speak about Christendom and it's unscriptural teaching of an immortal soul. I do not see any teaching in the scriptures of an immortal soul but I also do not claim to know what the second death is.
I point to the unscriptural teaching of the Watchtower that tells us there is no spirit/soul of man and that hades is just the grave.
All this can be related to the thief on the cross and that the Jesus and the thief went that same day to what was known as paradise in that part of hades which was also called the bosom of Abraham.

Frank Goad said:

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

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You are right. In ancient Jewish concept (mostly Pharisaic in nature) Hades is partitioned or zoned. Everyone will descend to Hades once dead, unless he didn't taste death. Elijah and Enoch didn't taste death thus they are not in Hades. Bad souls go to a place of torment. There is also a place called the Lake of Fire reserved for use after the judgment. There's yet another place usually called Abyss or pit with a specific meaning to indicate a location for the fallen angels to be chained. By extending the concepts there is also a place for the good souls, which is the paradise. However there's yet another paradise not in Hades. It's in the third heaven or called Abraham's Bosom. That's where Elijah and Enoch stay.

Brian2 said:

I don't know what this answer has to do with the Watchtower wanting to ignore the many other places where Jesus says "Truly I tell you" and add the word "today" to that saying in this one place.
Surely my argument is the same type of argument that the Watchtower would use itself, and does, about other scriptures.
Imo it was good that Jesus could let the thief know that day that he would not be hanging there on the cross for days, waiting to die. That of course has nothing to do with where the comma goes, just like what you said has nothing to do with it.
Jesus actually could have said, "Truly I tell you, you will be with me in paradise."
That is really what you want Jesus to have said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,but He did not, so the WT had to mess with the translation and all good JWs have to follow like the good sheep that they are.
This obvious messing with the translation for doctrinal reasons is just another evidence of the dishonesty of the WT and of the trust that JWs but in the Watchtower instead of in the scriptures, even while calling themselves Bible Students. I guess it's a bit like hard line Trump supporters believing all he has said even if they are themselves bright and educated people.
Then when I start saying too many things that JWs cannot answer there is a walking away and refusal to talk any more.
In the end all I can do is pray that your eyes will be opened while knowing that it could mean the ripping out of your heart by a heartless organisation who takes friends and family from people who want to leave.
Crikey what a mouthful I gave you,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I hope you don't take it personally, all my arrows are against the deceit of the Watchtower even if it may be against the forum rules.

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• 'Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. But you've been taught he was in paradise that very day of death. So, which one of us seems to be wrong?

I know this isn't personal.

• But remember....you're supporting dogma from religions whose reputations reveal them willing to fight against & kill their brothers, simply because a worldly nation tells them to. Titus 1:16 to them!

They are disobedient. Get away, I'm so thankful I did.

Things we "can't answer", then we "walk away"?

Are you for real?

You're talking to people that go from door-to-door Brian; we don't know who we'll find! We're very confident in our teachings!
What we don't pursue, are arguments....I think you are mistaking being peaceable w/ being - what? Scared?

One more thing, if I may: yes, we try to be good sheep. Both Jehovah & Jesus require it. (Hebrews 13:17; John 15:10) That’s a compliment, you know.

What affiliation are you?

Muffled said:

I believe the scripture clearly states that the thief will be with Jesus in Paradise on that day.

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here is another time Jesus said he would be ''with ''
(Matthew 28:20) teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
was/is he literally ''with'' ?

Hockeycowbory replied to @Brian2 : 'Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. (Post #72)

Hi @Hockeycowboy

Can you give me a specific reference to the specific scripture you are referring to when you say Jesus was "in the ground" for 3 days?

Thanks so much. I hope the holiday period is pleasant for you; everyone healthy and safe.

Clear
ειτωνεδρω

Clear said:

Hockeycowbory replied to @Brian2 : 'Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. (Post #72)

Hi @Hockeycowboy

Can you give me a specific reference to the specific scripture you are referring to when you say Jesus was "in the ground" for 3 days?

Thanks so much. I hope the holiday period is pleasant for you; everyone healthy and safe.

Clear
ειτωνεδρω

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how is it that you did not know in the ground / in Hell for 3 days.?

Cataway asked : "how is it that you did not know in the ground ..." (post #75).

Hi @cataway :

You are confused.
The question is not asking for historical information, but rather the question is simply asking for a specific scriptural reference.


My question to HockeyCowboy was :
"Can you give me a specific reference to the specific scripture you are referring to when you say Jesus was "in the ground" for 3 days?"

My question was in response to @Hockeycowboy s comment : "Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. (Post #72)




Clear
ειδρτζσεω

Clear said:

Cataway asked : "how is it that you did not know in the ground ..." (post #75).

Hi @cataway :

You are confused.
The question is not asking for historical information, but rather the question is simply asking for a specific scriptural reference.


My question to HockeyCowboy was :
"Can you give me a specific reference to the specific scripture you are referring to when you say Jesus was "in the ground" for 3 days?"

My question was in response to @Hockeycowboy s comment : "Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. (Post #72)




Clear
ειδρτζσεω

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and i said "how is it that you did not know in the ground" did you never read the bible ?

Hi @cataway

Can you give me the specific scriptural reference you are referring to?

Clear

@Clear , hope you’re doing well.

Psalms 16:10, which Peter quoted in Acts 2

Forgive me, I haven’t been here much.

1) @Hockeycowboy said to @Brian2 : "Messing with the translation'? Jesus was in the ground / in Hell for 3 days. (Post #72)

2) Clear asked Hockeycowboy : "Can you give me a specific reference to the specific scripture you are referring to when you say Jesus was "in the ground" for 3 days?" (Post #74)

3) HockeyCowboy answered : “Psalms 16:10, which Peter quoted in Acts 2”


I'd like to make a very discrete point here.

Psalms here, in early Judeo-Christian religion is not speaking of being “in the ground’ for 3 days. There is no mention of either “ground”, “dirt”, etc., and no mention of any time period. Psalms speaks of the , early Judeo-Christian doctrine that ones’ soul (or spirit….) would not be left in HADES.

My tongue exhulted and yet also my flesh shall lodge in hope. For you have not abandoned my soul in Hades, and neither shall you allow (give) your holy one to see corruption. Psalms 15:10 LXX

You referred to Peter quoting psalms 16:10 (Mas, or 15:10 in LXX). Peters speech has to do with the resurrection of Jesus from Hades/Sheol/World of spirits, etc. (whatever name one applies) and his resurrection

Acts 2:24 is Peter speaking to men about Jesus "....Whom God hath raised up having loosed the pains of death because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. For David speaketh concerning him, I forsaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved. Therefore did my heart rejoice and my tongue was glad. Moreover also my flesh shall lodge in hope because thou will not leave my soul in Hades neither wilt thou suffer thine holy one to see (experience) corruption.

While the scripture refers to Hades, it does not mention being in the “ground”.

The distinction between the ground/soil/dirt and Hades is not merely semantics.

For example, when a sailor died at sea accidently, and their body was dumped overboard, the body is never “in the ground” but the spirit still went to Hades in early Christian worldviews.

Similarly, individuals who die in a fire and whose bodies are burned up are not buried. There is nothing to put "in the ground” in such as case, yet their spirits still went to Hades in early Christianity.

I think this is one of the distinctions between @Brian2 and your comments.

Brian2s interpretation is a product of the earlier Judeo-Christian interpretation and religion and your interpretations are a product of a different and a much more modern Christian religion which was created in a larger age with different doctrines and different interpretations than that of the early Christians.

I am not saying the earliest Christians were right and you are wrong, merely that the two religions are different in their interpretations and their doctrines.


In any case HockeyCowboy, I hope your spirituals journey is wonderful and insightful and full of joy.


Clear
ειδρνεφιω