The thief on the cross and jesus.Did they go to paradise underground?

[Frank Goad]

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

 

[Katzpur]

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

I think you're on the right track. Jesus told the repentant thief who hung beside Him on the cross that He'd see him that day in Paradise. But we know that Paradise is not the same place as Heaven, because when Jesus appeared to Mary on Easter morning, He told her He had not yet ascended to His Father who was in Heaven. We also know that Jesus visited "the spirits in prison" during the three days His body lay in the tomb. To me, this implies that Paradise (for the righteous) and Prison (aka Hell) for the wicked were both part of the Spirit World where Jesus went during the period of time between His death and His resurrection. I believe, as did the ancient Christians, that the spirits of all who have ever lived will reside in the spirit world while they await their resurrection. The fact that Jesus preached His gospel to those in the spirit prison very strongly implies that there is an opportunity for repentance, even after death. The "final judgment" does not come until we are resurrected.

 

[Brian2]

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That looks right to me. It is amazing that some want to change the position of the coma to after "today" and end up with a sentence that says something else. But of course the common saying of Jesus in the gospels is "verily I say unto thee" and is not "verily I say unto thee today".

 

[1213]

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God....

I have understood paradise and heaven are not the same. Paradise and Hades are places where people wait the judgment day. And especially because Jesus told that they will be in paradise, I believe they were.

 

[cataway]

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

That looks right to me. It is amazing that some want to change the position of the coma to after "today" and end up with a sentence that says something else. But of course the common saying of Jesus in the gospels is "verily I say unto thee" and is not "verily I say unto thee today".

perhaps you missed the part where Jesus did not take the thief with him when he ascended to heaven

 

[Thief]

paradise could be nothing more than dying

a release of the spirit from this mortal coil

 

[Brian2]

perhaps you missed the part where Jesus did not take the thief with him when he ascended to heaven

No I did not miss that part. Jesus said that they would be in paradise together that day. The ascension was after that. The paradise Jesus was talking about is the same one Jesus spoke of in Luke 16 in the parable/story about Lazarus. It is the place where the souls of the dead go after death since the soul does not die at the death of the body. Some souls rest in peace, a paradise, and others do not it seems from scripture.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[cataway]

No I did not miss that part. Jesus said that they would be in paradise together that day. The ascension was after that. The paradise Jesus was talking about is the same one Jesus spoke of in Luke 16 in the parable/story about Lazarus. It is the place where the souls of the dead go after death since the soul does not die at the death of the body. Some souls rest in peace, a paradise, and others do not it seems from scripture.
Matt 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

and yet the paradise has yet to be seen here on earth . some day a paradise the earth will be . but not yet. its still yet in the future . it means you put the comma in the wrong place . you have been told and thats all thats required of me.

 

[Brian2]

and yet the paradise has yet to be seen here on earth . some day a paradise the earth will be . but not yet. its still yet in the future . it means you put the comma in the wrong place . you have been told and thats all thats required of me.

Are you saying that Jesus is going to be here on earth in paradise with the thief?

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Are you saying that Jesus is going to be here on earth in paradise with the thief?

Jesus said He is coming back to earth to rule over God's kingdom. That is when the earth will become a paradise for those who live on it. And that is when Jesus and the thief will be together.



















jesus

















jesus

 

[Brian2]

Jesus said He is coming back to earth to rule over God's kingdom. That is when the earth will become a paradise for those who live on it. And that is when Jesus and the thief will be together.

Not according to JW beliefs which say that Jesus, along with the 144,000 anointed Christians will be invisible spirits in heaven and nobody will ever see them, and they won't be in the paradise on earth.
BUT you said that is when Jesus and the thief will be together.
Jesus said. "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"
This means that the thief and Jesus were in paradise that day. The paradise they were in is the part of Hades (the place where the souls of the dead go) mentioned in Luke 16 and is called there, the "bosom of Abraham" where Lazarus was comforted.
The JW idea is that we do not have a spirit part and so when we die we go to the grave and rot away, so they have to interpret the Bible that way. For this reason they change the position of the coma in "Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise" to after "today" even though Jesus often used the term "truly I say to you" and never used the term "truly I say to you today".
Cataway said that paradise had not yet come to earth and knowing that Jesus was not even going to be in that paradise in JW teachings I asked. Are you saying that Jesus is going to be in paradise earth with the thief?
I can't wait to see if I get an answer. If I don't I might be waiting a long time.
The teaching body of the JWs teaches contradictions like this and JWs have to accept them or.................

 

[cataway]

if you want to play it out . lets consider how many will be living in the paradise earth ,many billions . if Jesus was on earth as a human or spirit. how many would really be "with" him ?? how close does one have to be to be with someone to be with them?. i go to a movie and take my son with me . in the theater there are 199 other people , are they with me ? if you agree with me are you with me ? Jesus is not walking the earth as i do today yet i walk with Jesus. is he with me?? or am i with him? the thief will as Jesus promised be given a resurrection and will live under the directions then given of Jesus' kingdom arrangements. even as the billions of other people will also do.

 

[Brian2]

if you want to play it out . lets consider how many will be living in the paradise earth ,many billions . if Jesus was on earth as a human or spirit. how many would really be "with" him ?? how close does one have to be to be with someone to be with them?. i go to a movie and take my son with me . in the theater there are 199 other people , are they with me ? if you agree with me are you with me ? Jesus is not walking the earth as i do today yet i walk with Jesus. is he with me?? or am i with him? the thief will as Jesus promised be given a resurrection and will live under the directions then given of Jesus' kingdom arrangements. even as the billions of other people will also do.

Jesus would be with billions on earth if He was on earth. Eventually He may get around to meeting personally, everyone many times over eternity. In an orthodox Christian sense, which seems also to be a Biblical sense to me, Jesus dwells with and in all Christians, as in passages like this one:
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
This means that the Spirit of God (being the same as the Spirit of Christ, because there is only one Spirit Eph 4:4-6) is in all Christians, as the "anyone" in John 14:23 indicates, and so all Christians are born again in this way.
If Jesus says the thief will be with Jesus in paradise then I believe it.
I suppose with the JW teachings some plain things in scripture have to be ignored or got around somehow and this is one of them. Others may be that the great crowd are seen before the throne in Revelations and in JW teachings this cannot be in heaven and so has to be got around. The New Jerusalem is said to be coming down out of heaven (Rev 3:12........... the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; ....) God and the Lamb are said to be in that New Jerusalem and God is said to come and dwell with His people and to dwell in Zion/Jerusalem forever. The OT saints are said to be in the New Jerusalem with all people of faith it seems:
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
And I could go on with examples like this in other topics also.
The JW Bible interpretation seems to be based on the Watchtower teachings rather than the teachings based on the Bible in many cases.
The thief being with Jesus in paradise but not being with Him seems to be just another example.
When it comes to the actual placement of the coma in the passage (Luke 23:43) it is true that Jesus said many times, "truly I say to you" but never "truly I say to you today" unless the JW teachings about Luke 23:43 are correct, in which case Jesus said it once.
This seems to be a case of interpreting and translating the Bible according to the Watchtower teachings.

 

[Deeje]

Simple answer?.......when was Jesus resurrected? He was in a tomb for three days after his death, which means that he didn't go anywhere for those three days....and the thief didn't either because he died and was buried in sheol, the same place where Jesus was. After his resurrection, Jesus stayed to encourage his apostles for 40 days before he returned to heaven. (Acts 1:3)

The thief is still in his grave awaiting his earthly resurrection by Jesus who will then be ruling over paradise. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection are proof that he did not go anywhere to be with the thief "that day". He told the Pharisees that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights.

"Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

It was Jesus' promise to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, not heaven. So the comma is placed correctly in the NWT. He made the promise to the thief that day....not that he would be with him in paradise that day. No one went anywhere.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

Simple answer?.......when was Jesus resurrected? He was in a tomb for three days after his death, which means that he didn't go anywhere for those three days....and the thief didn't either because he died and was buried in sheol, the same place where Jesus was. After his resurrection, Jesus stayed to encourage his apostles for 40 days before he returned to heaven. (Acts 1:3)

The thief is still in his grave awaiting his earthly resurrection by Jesus who will then be ruling over paradise. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection are proof that he did not go anywhere to be with the thief "that day". He told the Pharisees that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights.

"Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

It was Jesus' promise to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, not heaven. So the comma is placed correctly in the NWT. He made the promise to the thief that day....not that he would be with him in paradise that day. No one went anywhere.

Such a perfect answer. There were no commas in the Greek or Hebrew texts. When they were finally translated to other languages the religious ideas of the times influenced where the commas were placed. The promise to the thief was indeed made THAT DAY of a future paradise here on earth when Jesus returns. And no, I am not a JW but the truth has no religion.

 

[cataway]

Jesus would be with billions on earth if He was on earth. Eventually He may get around to meeting personally, everyone many times over eternity. In an orthodox Christian sense, which seems also to be a Biblical sense to me, Jesus dwells with and in all Christians, as in passages like this one:
John 14:23 Jesus replied, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
This means that the Spirit of God (being the same as the Spirit of Christ, because there is only one Spirit Eph 4:4-6) is in all Christians, as the "anyone" in John 14:23 indicates, and so all Christians are born again in this way.
If Jesus says the thief will be with Jesus in paradise then I believe it.
I suppose with the JW teachings some plain things in scripture have to be ignored or got around somehow and this is one of them. Others may be that the great crowd are seen before the throne in Revelations and in JW teachings this cannot be in heaven and so has to be got around. The New Jerusalem is said to be coming down out of heaven (Rev 3:12........... the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; ....) God and the Lamb are said to be in that New Jerusalem and God is said to come and dwell with His people and to dwell in Zion/Jerusalem forever. The OT saints are said to be in the New Jerusalem with all people of faith it seems:
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11 And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12 And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
And I could go on with examples like this in other topics also.
The JW Bible interpretation seems to be based on the Watchtower teachings rather than the teachings based on the Bible in many cases.
The thief being with Jesus in paradise but not being with Him seems to be just another example.
When it comes to the actual placement of the coma in the passage (Luke 23:43) it is true that Jesus said many times, "truly I say to you" but never "truly I say to you today" unless the JW teachings about Luke 23:43 are correct, in which case Jesus said it once.
This seems to be a case of interpreting and translating the Bible according to the Watchtower teachings.

when ya then stop and realize that Jesus was dead and remained dead until his God put life back into him. and that was something like 3 days later . hummm ,may be something wrong with the math on that one . one would have to ask , how could a person that is dead get into the paradise earth on the very day they die if the one that was going to get them there was dead ,and would be dead for three more days?

 

[Frank Goad]

Luke 23:42-43.Makes me think jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day they both died together.Because of Eph 4:7-10 it makes me think they went underground.And there jesus lead the souls of the righteous dead to heaven to be with God.I think they(jesus and the thief)went to hades together and not right to heaven to see God.Because of Jh:3:13.In Acts 2:27-31 it talks about jesus's soul going to hades.And not being abandoned in hades.Or seeing corruption.I think hades was a temporary paradise for everyone who made it to the goodside.Or acted as a hell for you if you didn't make it to the goodside.The bad side was for the bad people(in God's eyes)like in Isa 14:9-11 for the king of babylon.Or was good for people like samuel.Like in 1 Sam 28:1-20.

Simple answer?.......when was Jesus resurrected? He was in a tomb for three days after his death, which means that he didn't go anywhere for those three days....and the thief didn't either because he died and was buried in sheol, the same place where Jesus was. After his resurrection, Jesus stayed to encourage his apostles for 40 days before he returned to heaven. (Acts 1:3)

The thief is still in his grave awaiting his earthly resurrection by Jesus who will then be ruling over paradise. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection are proof that he did not go anywhere to be with the thief "that day". He told the Pharisees that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights.

"Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

It was Jesus' promise to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, not heaven. So the comma is placed correctly in the NWT. He made the promise to the thief that day....not that he would be with him in paradise that day. No one went anywhere.

Can you explain my post.Verse for verse please? Nobody else seems to want to.For some strange reason.

 

[Deeje]

Can you explain my post.Verse for verse please? Nobody else seems to want to.For some strange reason.

To be perfectly honest with you Frank....I'm pretty much done explaining anything to you because you will go off on your own tangents and forget everything that was explained to you before.

Please refer to my previous, copious replies to you on many subjects.....I simply don't have the heart to go there again.

 

[Brian2]

Simple answer?.......when was Jesus resurrected? He was in a tomb for three days after his death, which means that he didn't go anywhere for those three days....and the thief didn't either because he died and was buried in sheol, the same place where Jesus was. After his resurrection, Jesus stayed to encourage his apostles for 40 days before he returned to heaven. (Acts 1:3)

The thief is still in his grave awaiting his earthly resurrection by Jesus who will then be ruling over paradise. (John 5:28-29)

Jesus' words to Mary Magdalene after his resurrection are proof that he did not go anywhere to be with the thief "that day". He told the Pharisees that he would be "in the heart of the earth" for three days and nights.

"Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” (John 20:17)

It was Jesus' promise to the thief that he would be with him in Paradise, not heaven. So the comma is placed correctly in the NWT. He made the promise to the thief that day....not that he would be with him in paradise that day. No one went anywhere.

What you wrote is based on the false Watchtower teaching about hades/sheol being the grave, the hole in the ground,,,,,,,,,,,,,and on the false Watchtower teaching that humans are no more than animated bodies without a conscious spirit in them. It is amazing how doctrines are intertwined like that.
But of course the Watchtower teachings are false because the Bible does not teach what the Watchtower teaches about those topics.
After Jesus resurrection when His soul reanimated His body after it came from hades (with the thief) it does appear in the quote you gave (John 20:17) that Jesus then ascended to heaven and received His Kingdom (as in Daniel 7:13,14) since He later said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me".
Personally I do not think He was wondering about on earth in all of those 40 days.
You have not answered why Jesus would suddenly change His usual saying of "Verily I say to you" into "verily I say to you today". That by itself shows a biased translation.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

What you wrote is based on the false Watchtower teaching about hades/sheol being the grave, the hole in the ground,,,,,,,,,,,,,and on the false Watchtower teaching that humans are no more than animated bodies without a conscious spirit in them. It is amazing how doctrines are intertwined like that.
But of course the Watchtower teachings are false because the Bible does not teach what the Watchtower teaches about those topics.
After Jesus resurrection when His soul reanimated His body after it came from hades (with the thief) it does appear in the quote you gave (John 20:17) that Jesus then ascended to heaven and received His Kingdom (as in Daniel 7:13,14) since He later said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me".
Personally I do not think He was wondering about on earth in all of those 40 days.
You have not answered why Jesus would suddenly change His usual saying of "Verily I say to you" into "verily I say to you today". That by itself shows a biased translation.

And what supports this besides your own biased religious beliefs. Jesus was NOT in paradise the same day he died so how could the thief be with him the same day? So what is your belief about where Jesus was on the day he died?