Christianity vs Baha'i

Trailblazer said:

Baha'is do not believe in demons nor do we believe in Satan as real entities that exist.
“The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you.”
The way I interpret those verses is that Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan.
One can have eternal life in this earth world as well as in the spiritual world (afterlife).

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The message is absolutely clear and it says that Satan exists. Why do you want to change the meaning of the message in the way you want?
Who are you to interpret a clear message in a twisted way?
What would be eternal life in this world, and what is your evidence that afterlife exists? Anything more that words of a fiction?

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Who said there was no evidence?
The evidence I found confirmed to me that Baha'u'llah came to do what He claimed and that was all I needed at that time.

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That is what I am asking you. What evidence did you come across? What evidence?

Aupmanyav said:

One one hand you say that what Mohammad spoke was written down by scribes or memorized by people and then you say that it is the original message from Allah.

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If the message was exactly what the scribes heard Muhammad speak, and it was later recorded in the Qur'an, it was the original message from God through the Angel Gabriel.

Aupmanyav said:

There two things are contradictory. Quran, by what you say, is second hand material and not first hand. Therefore, you should not take it as absolutely correct.

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It is not first hand in the same sense that the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are first hand, because Muhammad did not write it Himself, so in that sense the Qur'an is second hand.

Aupmanyav said:

Why do not you apply the standards that you apply to Tanakh and Bible to Quran also? You reject the authenticity of Tanakh and Bible, but not of Quran. Is it because Bahaollah was born a Shia Muslim? Your Guardian himself was obviously wrong.

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The Tanakh and the Bible are not first or second hand, they are third hand at best, as we do not even know who wrote them. As such, all those scriptures have to be *believed* solely on faith, faith that they were divinely inspired.

Aupmanyav said:

The message is absolutely clear and it says that Satan exists. Why do you want to change the meaning of the message in the way you want?
Who are you to interpret a clear message in a twisted way?

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No, there are no verses that say "Satan exists." That was just an assumption made by Christians, because they interpreted the verses literally instead of figuratively.

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

Muhammad brought that personal connection with God to a collective belief in One God, that culminated in Nation building.
Baha'u'llah has come to build One planet with one people.

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Jesus also tried to bring peace and unity. Mohammad was not the first. So, what is new with Bahaollah?
Bahaollah has come and gone just like the others. We are still divided.
What does it say about your Allah. He has been sending messages for upward of 2,500 yeas. He has sent 9 manifestations and many prophets and saints. Are God and his manifestations that ineffective that they cannot achieve something in 2,500 years?
What a funny almighty all-knowing God you have!

Trailblazer said:

No, there are no verses that say "Satan exists." That was just an assumption made by Christians, because they interpreted the verses literally instead of figuratively.

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On what authority you say that?

Aupmanyav said:

If that is the case then why the message through messengers and why not directly to people?
"... It is for this reason that they appear to vary in their greatness." So greatness varies. Some w3ere not as great as others. I wonder who is the greatest? Bahaollah?
sheddeth, appeareth, revealeth.

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Metephors are needed.

If we say God is the Creator, then God has created all that we can see in our universe and beyond. This would mean God is bigger than all this, and we know the energy required for creation is immense. How close can we get to that source, without being obliterated?

It says in scripture that we have been created to know and Love God, but how can we even begin to know God, who is outside a creation we are part of and we an not get close to?

We find our answers in what God offered. The Message given by God through the Messengers is like the Sun, who's rays of light give life and hold creation in balance.

So God created the Sun's and the Sun give each planet life according to the intensity of the Light and their distance from the sun. If the sun approaches any closer, life as it is known on that planet would be extinguished. So even the Messenger can not divulge the full intensity of their light, let alone God.

We in turn get life to the degree we choose to partake of the life giving qualities of the sun.
.
Regards Tony

Aupmanyav said:

Jesus also tried to bring peace and unity. Mohammad was not the first. So, what is new with Bahaollah?
Bahaollah has come and gone just like the others. We are still divided.
What does it say about your Allah. He has been sending messages for upward of 2,500 yeas. He has sent 9 manifestations and many prophets and saints. Are God and his manifestations that ineffective that they cannot achieve something in 2,500 years?
What a funny almighty all-knowing God you have!

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Another way to look at this, is, how much patience God has.


Bahaullah Himself gave this answer:


“If God had pleased He had surely made all men one people.” His purpose, however, is to enable the pure in spirit and the detached in heart to ascend, by virtue of their own innate powers, unto the shores of the Most Great Ocean, that thereby they who seek the Beauty of the All-Glorious may be distinguished and separated from the wayward and perverse.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 70-73

Trailblazer said:

If the message was exactly what the scribes heard Muhammad speak, and it was later recorded in the Qur'an, it was the original message from God through the Angel Gabriel.
It is not first hand in the same sense that the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah are first hand, because Muhammad did not write it Himself, so in that sense the Qur'an is second hand.
The Tanakh and the Bible are not first or second hand, they are third hand at best, as we do not even know who wrote them.

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Contradictions galore, just like what you have in your books. Quran is original but Tanakh and Bible are not. And the message of Bahaollah as interpreted by Abdul Baha and Shoghi is correct. If it is an interpretation, then it is modified, changed, corrupted and not the original.

Aupmanyav said:

Jesus also tried to bring peace and unity. Mohammad was not the first. So, what is new with Bahaollah?
Bahaollah has come and gone just like the others. We are still divided.
What does it say about your Allah. He has been sending messages for upward of 2,500 yeas. He has sent 9 manifestations and many prophets and saints. Are God and his manifestations that ineffective that they cannot achieve something in 2,500 years?
What a funny almighty all-knowing God you have!

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I see all Mesengers brought a Message and a path for peace, but it is humanity that is not ready. It is not unexpected, if one reads scripture and prophecy, it is already been shown how it unfolds and how we will eventually embrace our oneness.

For peace and love to be strong and permanent, it must become part of who we are, what we choose to be, a being that has been given choices to rise above and be more then the nature they were created in.

I see great progress has been made. We are climbing out of the darkness into the light, we are finally seeing what we can be, all we have to do now is find a unity of purpose and the Golden Age long awaited, will be realised.

Regards Tony

Aupmanyav said:

Jesus also tried to bring peace and unity.

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Jesus absolutely did not come to bring peace or unity. That was not Jesus' mission, that was the mission of Baha'u'llah.

Matthew 10:34-37 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Regarding unity, Jesus said that He came to gather up all the sheep into one fold, but He was not referring to all of humanity. Jesus was only referring to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Matthew 15:24 I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Baha'u'llah came to unite all of humanity into one fold:

“The utterance of God is a lamp, whose light is these words: Ye are the fruits of one tree, and the leaves of one branch. Deal ye one with another with the utmost love and harmony, with friendliness and fellowship. He Who is the Day Star of Truth beareth Me witness! So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth. The one true God, He Who knoweth all things, Himself testifieth to the truth of these words.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 288

“It is incumbent upon every man of insight and understanding to strive to translate that which hath been written into reality and action…. That one indeed is a man who, today, dedicateth himself to the service of the entire human race. The Great Being saith: Blessed and happy is he that ariseth to promote the best interests of the peoples and kindreds of the earth. In another passage He hath proclaimed: It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 250

Aupmanyav said:

Contradictions galore, just like what you have in your books. Quran is original but Tanakh and Bible are not. And the message of Bahaollah as interpreted by Abdul Baha and Shoghi is correct. If it is an interpretation, then it is modified, changed, corrupted and not the original.

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In our view, the Bible overall contains the truth. Bible was never altered and never got corrupted. However there are some negligible inaccuracies in it.

More over, the Bible is new testament and old testament. The Gospels, Revelations of John and then writings of Paul is truth.
The old testament is consistent of Torah, and also some history chapters. The Torah was issued from Moses, and in Bahai view is inspired word of God. There are some histories chapters in OT, which according to Abdulbaha are not the words of prophets.

Covenant of Bahaollah:
".. through a series of prophets or divine messengers referred to by Bahá'ís as Manifestations of God.": If there is no difference between a messenger and a manifestation, then why did the Bahais coin a new word - manifestation. Why don't they simply say that after Mohammad, the next messenger from Allah was Bahaollah.
"Bahá'u'lláh says manifestations of God have a dual nature, both divine and human.": So, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad were partly divine?
Then why did Allah's message to Moses or Mohammad say that you should not associate any human with Allah? It is a commandment from Allah.

I will go through the so-called "Covenant" that you have linked. This is just the first page.

Aupmanyav said:

Contradictions galore, just like what you have in your books. Quran is original but Tanakh and Bible are not.

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There is no way around it, all scholars know the truth. The Tahakh and the Bible were written by men, and we do not know who they were.

"Who wrote the Torah? In light of more than two hundred years of scholarship and of the ongoing disputes on that question,[1] the most precise answer to this question still is: We don’t know. The tradition claims it was Moses, but the Torah itself says otherwise. Only small portions within the Torah are traced back to him, but not nearly the whole Torah: Exodus 17:14 (Battle against Amalek); 24:4 (Covenant Code); 34:28 (Ten Commandments); Numbers 33:2 (Wandering Stations); Deuteronomy 31:9 (Deuteronomic Law); and 31:22 (Song of Moses). "
Who Wrote the Torah?

"Over centuries, billions of people have read the Bible. Scholars have spent their lives studying it, while rabbis, ministers and priests have focused on interpreting, teaching and preaching from its pages.

As the sacred text for two of the world’s leading religions, Judaism and Christianity, as well as other faiths, the Bible has also had an unmatched influence on literature—particularly in the Western world. It has been translated into nearly 700 languages, and while exact sales figures are hard to come by, it’s widely considered to be the world’s best-selling book.

But despite the Bible’s undeniable influence, mysteries continue to linger over its origins. Even after nearly 2,000 years of its existence, and centuries of investigation by biblical scholars, we still don’t know with certainty who wrote its various texts, when they were written or under what circumstances.
Who Wrote the Bible?

COMPARE/CONTRAST the Torah and the Bible to the Qur'an:

"The words of the Quran were collected as they were revealed to the Prophet Muhammad, committed to memory by the early Muslims, and recorded in writing by scribes.

Under Supervision of the Prophet Muhammad
As the Quran was being revealed, the Prophet Muhammad made special arrangements to ensure that it was written down. Although the Prophet Muhammad himself could neither read nor write, he dictated the verses orally and instructed scribes to mark down the revelation on whatever materials were available: tree branches, stones, leather, and bones. The scribes would then read their writing back to the Prophet, who would check it for mistakes. With each new verse that was revealed, the Prophet Muhammad also dictated its placement within the growing body of text.

When the Prophet Muhammad died, the Quran had been fully written down. It was not in book form, however. It was recorded on different parchments and materials, held in the possession of the Companions of the Prophet"
Who Wrote the Quran and When?

Aupmanyav said:

And the message of Bahaollah as interpreted by Abdul Baha and Shoghi is correct. If it is an interpretation, then it is modified, changed, corrupted and not the original.

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The message of Baha'u'llah as interpreted by Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are just additional Writings we can benefit from, but we do not have to rely upon them, since we have the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah. Unlike any other religion in history, any additional writings can be cross-checked with the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah in order to know if that had been modified, changed, or corrupted.

Aupmanyav said:

On what authority you say that?

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On Baha'u'llah's authority...

“Know assuredly that just as thou firmly believest that the Word of God, exalted be His glory, endureth for ever, thou must, likewise, believe with undoubting faith that its meaning can never be exhausted. They who are its appointed interpreters, they whose hearts are the repositories of its secrets, are, however, the only ones who can comprehend its manifold wisdom. Whoso, while reading the Sacred Scriptures, is tempted to choose therefrom whatever may suit him with which to challenge the authority of the Representative of God among men, is, indeed, as one dead, though to outward seeming he may walk and converse with his neighbors, and share with them their food and their drink.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 175-176

On what authority do the Christians say Satan is a real entity? I do not know where Jesus conferred authority upon anyone to interpret the New Testament... do you?

Aupmanyav said:

Covenant of Bahaollah:
".. through a series of prophets or divine messengers referred to by Bahá'ís as Manifestations of God.": If there is no difference between a messenger and a manifestation, then why did the Bahais coin a new word - manifestation. Why don't they simply say that after Mohammad, the next messenger from Allah was Bahaollah.
"Bahá'u'lláh says manifestations of God have a dual nature, both divine and human.": So, Moses, Jesus and Mohammad were partly divine?
Then why did Allah's message to Moses or Mohammad say that you should not associate any human with Allah? It is a commandment from Allah.

I will go through the so-called "Covenant" that you have linked. This is just the first page.

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Because in Bahai view, the religious truth is revealed gradually. Before Bahai Faith, people were not ready to be told that, the Messengers of God, were Manifestions of God. Bahaullah also said, there are many more things to teach, but He did not say it in our age. Whenever humanity is ready to know more, the next Manifestation appears and teaches more truth. This is called progressive revelations of God.

InvestigateTruth said:

In our view, the Bible overall contains the truth. Bible was never altered and never got corrupted. However there are some negligible inaccuracies in it.

More over, the Bible is new testament and old testament. The Gospels, Revelations of John and then writings of Paul is truth.

The old testament is consistent of Torah, and also some history chapters. The Torah was issued from Moses, and in Bahai view is inspired word of God. There are some histories chapters in OT, which according to Abdulbaha are not the words of prophets.

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So, in your view, Torah, Bible and Quran, all three, are not corrupted, except for some history chapters in OT - and they are the word of Allah. In that case why you do not accept Jesus as Son of God and Mohammad as the last messenger of Allah, Nabi-ul-khatm? the HoJ says that there is no difference between a messenger and a manifestation. Why did you have to coin a new word - manifestation; why not messenger was enough for Bahaollah?

Aupmanyav said:

So, in your view, Torah, Bible and Quran, all three, are not corrupted, except for some history chapters in OT - and they are the word of Allah.

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Yes, all those three scriptures are legitimate, and valid from Bahai POV.

In that case why you do not accept Jesus as Son of God and Mohammad as the last messenger of Allah, Nabi-ul-khatm?

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Bahais have only a different interpretations of those titles.
Jesus was Son of God, but not biological son of God. He was a spiritual son of God.

Muhammad was the seal of Prophets, and He was the last Prophet in Adamic Cycle, until the Judgement Day. Judgement Day in Bahai view has come, and that was Day of Manifestation of the Bab.

the HoJ says that there is no difference between a messenger and a manifestation. Why did you have to coin a new word - manifestation; why not messenger was enough for Bahaollah?

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Please see my post #814

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:

I will offer other ways of looking at God's Word, as we tend to get caught up on one word and a specific meanings.

I see the Word of God has many many meanings, some can be seen to be specific to a Messenger, some can be found to be applicable to all Messengers. In Truth, when looked at in all ways, every Messenger is foretold with all those passages.

Bethlehem, Arabic Bayt Laḥm (“House of Meat”), Hebrew Bet Leḥem (“House of Bread”)

So born in Bethlehem could also be Born into the Law (Meat) and Word (Bread) of God, which is all the Mesengers.

Judah From the Hebrew name יְהוּדָה (Yehudah), probably derived from יָדָה (yadah) meaning "praise"

Tribe of Juda thus could be seen as a tribe of Praise, to which from will arise the Message given by Messengers.

David, is from the Hebrew name דָּוִד (Dawid), which was derived from Hebrew דּוֹד (dod) meaning "beloved"

All Messengers are Beloved of God, thus they all descend from David.

Let's look at what Jesus offers, as Jesus says there is a new Heaven, a new earth and a new Jerusalem.

Jerusalem means "Abode, or City of Peace“, thus a new Jerusalem can be any city God chooses. (I see it is now Haifa).

Also " According to the Jewish Midrash, "Jerusalem has 70 names". Lists have been compiled of 72 different Hebrew
names for Jerusalem in Jewish scripture."

Numbers also have great meaning in scriptures.

Regards Tony

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God created both heaven and earth, and the two form a parable of life. This does not mean that we should deny the existence of the earthly and focus only on the heavenly. It means that we should see the earthly as the shadow of the heavenly. In other words, there is truth in the earthly, and truth in the heavenly, but only the heavenly is eternal.

Was Jesse from Bethlehem, a village not far from Jerusalem? Yes, he truly lived there, I believe. Did Jesse have a son named David? Yes, I believe his youngest son was named David? [1 Samuel 17:14] Did God promise that David's throne would be occupied for ever? [1 Chronicles 17:20-27] Yes, I believe so. But wait. How can one have eternal majesty on an earthly throne? Impossible. So at some point, there has to be a new covenant in the form of a person, the Messiah. What will the Messiah be like? He will have to be both a descendant of David, in the flesh, and come from God, eternally, in the Spirit. This way, he can fulfil the earthly promises, and the eternal promises.

A new heaven and a new earth do not replace the first heaven and earth until Christ has destroyed death and made all things eternal. This means that Jerusalem on earth is Jerusalem on earth! Jerusalem in heaven is the city of God, the dwelling place of those who are made free in Christ. [Galatians 4:25,26]

Redemptionsong said:

God created both heaven and earth, and the two form a parable of life. This does not mean that we should deny the existence of the earthly and focus only on the heavenly. It means that we should see the earthly as the shadow of the heavenly. In other words, there is truth in the earthly, and truth in the heavenly, but only the heavenly is eternal.

Was Jesse from Bethlehem, a village not far from Jerusalem? Yes, he truly lived there, I believe. Did Jesse have a son named David? Yes, I believe his youngest son was named David? [1 Samuel 17:14] Did God promise that David's throne would be occupied for ever? [1 Chronicles 17:20-27] Yes, I believe so. But wait. How can one have eternal majesty on an earthly throne? Impossible. So at some point there has to be a new covenant in the form of a person, the Messiah. What will the Messiah be like? He will have be both a descendant of David in the flesh, and come from God, eternally, in the Spirit. This way, he can fulfil the earthly promises, and the eternal promises.

A new heaven and a new earth do not replace the first heaven and earth until Christ has destroyed death and and made all things eternal. This means that Jerusalem on earth is Jerusalem on earth! Jerusalem in heaven is the city of God, the dwelling place of those who are made free in Christ. [Galatians 4:25,26]

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Yes that is the way most Christians would reply and what you may not be aware of is that I can agree that many passages point to Jesus as Christ. I beleive, you do not have to convince me. I see you have an open mind, I wish you well.

Just as a side note, a Baha'i can show you just as many Passages about the Bab and Baha'u'llah, many many many more in fact.

In the end all that is now in your hands, I am not here to pursue you to change your mind.

I wish you well in your faith and life, Life at the moment is hectic, thus hasty replies.

Regards Tony

Trailblazer said:

Maybe it would help to understand what Baha'is believe about Covenants.

Baha’is believe that there is an everlasting covenant which remains in force today.

The overall covenant God made with His followers in Judaism, known to Jews as the Mosaic Covenant, and to Christians as the Old Covenant, put forth the stipulation of the oneness of God – “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” (Exodus 20:2) – as the primary law of the Ten Commandments. In exchange for following those principles, God promised that he would never leave His followers without guidance:

Be strong and of a good courage, fear not, nor be afraid … for the Lord thy God, he it is that doth go with thee; he will not fail thee, nor forsake thee. – Deuteronomy 31:6.

This eternal covenant between God and humanity, the Baha’i teachings say, remains in force today. The Creator has bestowed bounties on us all, and in return asks us to recognize His prophets and messengers and abide by their laws and spiritual principles. The Baha’i teachings joyously celebrate that covenant:

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What interests me here is whether the Baha'i understanding of the covenants fits with the scriptures.

God made a covenant with Abraham before he made a covenant with Moses. The Abrahamic covenant was a covenant of faith. The Mosaic covenant was a covenant of law. This is an important distinction because the covenant of faith is the everlasting covenant, not the covenant of law. This is not to undermine Moses, for Moses lived by faith. The nation of Israel (in the flesh) needed the law because of their disobedience [1 Timothy 1:9].

One could say that the covenant of law is linked, progressively, to the new covenant; which is a covenant of faith in Jesus Christ.
Here is Paul's explanation: 'Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying In thee shall all nations be blessed.
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.' [Galatians 4:7-11]

It should be possible to see from this that law is necessary when people do not have a personal 'face to face' faith in God. This personal faith in God comes to man through Jesus Christ, the Son of God. No other man can offer this 'face to face' encounter. Jesus Christ lives amongst us [those 'born again'], and within us, as the Holy Spirit.

Redemptionsong said:

It should be possible to see from this that law is necessary when people do not have a personal 'face to face' faith in God. This personal faith in God comes to man through Jesus Christ, the Son of God. No other man can offer this 'face to face' encounter. Jesus Christ lives amongst us [those 'born again'], and within us, as the Holy Spirit.

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I see the Law is needed for those that think they are born again as well.

It is needed so they do not become a law unto themselves, if they do they make of God's Word, what they choose.

Regards Tony