Does Paul Agree With LDS?

POST ONE OF FOUR

Hi @Deeje, I apologize for not responding earlier. I am, episodically, very busy at work and this week has been difficult and busy.

Deeje said : “This thought particularly caught my attention......this concept of the "place" where "spirits" of the dead go between this life and the next....where does this originate? Certainly not in scripture.” (post #164)


While the Judeo-Christian scripture references hades as the place where the spirits of the dead exist while they await the resurrection and judgement, much of the sacred texts such as biblical literature presumably originated with revelations to mankind from God that, at some point moved from oral histories and traditions into literary history and literature such as biblical literature.


EXISTENCE AS A THREE ACT PLAY. HADES AS AN INTERMISSION BEFORE JUDGMENT

I like @Katzpurs model of phases of the existence of spirits (post #146) where she described a three act play, 1) pre-birth existence, 2) mortal life, and 3) post Death judgment and resurrection with hades serving as an “intermission” of sorts where spirits await resurrection.

Act 1: The pre-mortal existence
Act 2: Mortality
Intermission: Awaiting the Resurrection in the Spirit World
Act 3: Our resurrection, judgment and reconciliation with God


I also like the specific point that [B]@sojourner[/B], (citing an author) made. “… a culture that does not affirm life after death does not speculate about it” I think this is correct to a certain extent. Since the creators of your modern religious movement did not retain the ancient concept of a spirit when your religion was created, your religion will neither recognize nor use the ancient scriptures in the same way the ancients did when they referred to spirits.


THE EXISTENCE OF SPIRITS IN BIBLICAL LITERATURE.

The concept of the existence of spirits existing inside mankind is indeed, referred to in scripture and in a great deal of Early Judeo-Christian literature. (I gave more than 30 examples in post 127-128). Keep in mind that your religious movement is a different religion that early Christianity and your texts and your interpretations are different than that of the earliest Christians.


For examples :

In Luke 23:46 Jesus says, upon the death of his body, “into thy hands I commend my spirit” - Jesus cannot commend his spirit if he does not have a spirit. Thus, Jesus had a spirit.
Gal. 5:17 says “flesh lusteth against the spirit, and the spirit against the flesh” - The flesh cannot “lust against” a spirit that doesn’t exist.
In Ps. 16:10 (or Acts 2:27, 31) the psalmist rejoices that God “thou wilt not leave my spirit in hell” – A spirit must exist if it is to be “left” anywhere.
James 4:5 "spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy" – A spirit dwells in us that is capable of lust.
Job 14:22 his spirit within him shall mourn – The spirit within man can mourn.
Ps. 22:29 none can keep alive his own spirit – A living spirit must exist in the first place if one is unable to keep it alive.
Matt. 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both spirit and body – A spirit must exist if it can be destroyed.
Hebrews 12:9 "...be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?" -- one cannot Be the Father of spirits unless spirit exist.
James 1:21 engrafted word, which is able to save your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be saved.
1 Pet. 1:22 ye have purified your spirit in obeying – A spirit must exist if it can be purified.
Ezek. 11:19 (36:26–27; 37:14) I will put a new spirit within you – A spirit must exist if it is to be put into us.
Luke 24:39 spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me – A spirit must exist if it either has or lacks something. .
Acts 7:59 Stephen ... saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be received.
Acts 23:8 Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit – The concept of a spirit existed, else the concept could not have been denied by the Sadducees.
Rom. 8:16 spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit – A spirit must exist if it can be witnessed to.
1 Cor. 6:20 glorify God in your body, and in your spirit – A spirit must exist if it can “glorify God”.

Such biblical texts reference this belief that mankind has a dual nature, spirit and body. While you’ve notice frequently that the words “spirit” and “soul” are conflated both by readers and by texts to mean the same thing, technically, they are not. [B]@Katzpur[/B] described the early Christian concept that when a spirit is united with a body, it then becomes a living “soul”. Still, much of Christianity, including writers and translators, often use the terms “soul” and “spirit” as synonyms.

We have evidence that this confusion existed anciently as well. For example, the Gospel of Phillip explains the early basic Christian belief that “The soul of Adam came into being by means of a breath, which is a synonym for spirit.” (the actual text says "synonym for spirit")


Regarding the early Judeo-Christian belief that Adam was a “dual” being (i.e. consisting of spirit and body).
In Genesis 2:7 the dual nature of man correlates to the dual sentences describing the process of creating a living adam.

a) The creation of a lifeless body
The first sentence Ch 2 vs 7 describes the creation of Adams body : “And God shaped man, taking dust from the earth.” This is a body, but it is lifeless, unintelligent, unemotional, unthinking, without independent will of it’s own.

Early Judeo-Christian literature assumes this model in its narratives.

For example, In discourse on abbaton, God leaves Adams lifeless body without putting a spirit in it for some time as it was known that Adam would fall and mankind would commit many great sins upon the earth and oppress and harm himself and others.

The narrative has Jesus saying to His Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him." And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state." And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."

Thus God puts breath, which Phillip tells us was a synonym for a spirit, into the lifeless body.


b) The addition of the spirit to the body
The second sentence is “And he ‘breathed’ into his face, the breath of life and man became a living soul”. In early Christian worldviews, this references the placing of a spirit into Adam to create a living soul (i.e. a spirit in a living body)

The word “breathed” here is ενεφυσησεν (LXX)., the base word is φυσιοω (physio) and though it can mean to “puff up”, in φυσις (Physis) it means “nature” (it’s where we get the word “physical’ in English). Adam became part of the natural, living world by means of this second part of this dual process when he had something put into his lifeless body.

In early Christian worldviews, the thing put into Adam was not merely “breath” or “air” or “wind”, rather the thing put into adam gave his body “intelligence”, “emotions”, “will” and other characteristics of intelligent life. In early Christianity, A spirit was placed into Adams lifeless body. Mere wind, or air, or breath does not instill these qualities of intelligence and emotion and will, etc.

Thus the Christian teaching was that “Adam came into being from two virgins, from the Spirit and from the virgin earth. “ (gos Phillip)

This simple concept permeates early Judeo-Christian literature. In Apo Adam, God stood in Adam’s presence and repeats this same early tradition, saying : ‘Adam, why were you sighing in your hearts? Do you not know that I am God who created you, and that I breathed into you a spirit of life for a living soul?’ The Apocalypse of Adam 2:1-6-7, ch 3:1;

As another example, in early Christianity the patriarch Napthali taugh that “…the Lord forms the body in correspondence to the spirit, and instills the spirit corresponding to the power of the body. Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs - Napthali 2:2

The point is that the earliest literature describes and assumes there was an intelligent spirit which was “clothed” by a body.

This process of “clothing” a spirit with a body is reflected in the symbolic duality of much of early literature. For example, when biblical Daniel 7:15 uses the phrase “my spirit was upset inside its sheath.”, the same sort of duality is found in the Dead Sea Scroll textual traditions. 1QapGen 2:10, “and my breath [spirit] within its sheath.”


JUST AS THE PROCESS OF LIFE INVOLVES PLACING A SPIRIT INTO A BODY. THE PROCESS OF DEATH INVOLVES REMOVAL OF A SPIRIT FROM ITS BODY.

In early Judeo-Christian literature, just as Adams spirit entered into his body and Adam became alive (a living soul). Conversely, when a spirit is leaving the body, the body weakens and dies. For example, Abraham says to the angel during his ascension “...I can no longer see, because I am weakened and my spirit is departing from me.” The Apocalypse of Abraham 16:1-4;.


This symbolism of a spirit being “clothed” with a body (i.e. “earthly clothing”) carried over to the symbolism surrounding resurrection in that resurrection was also described as a process of placing a spirit into “clothes of glory”, Judeo-Christian Enochian literature describes this process.

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“And the Lord said to Michael, “Go, and extract Enoch* from [his] earthly clothing. And anoint him with my delightful oil, and put him into the clothes of my glory*. 9 And so Michael did, just as the Lord had said to him. He anointed me and he clothed me. ...10 And I looked at myself, and I had become like one of his glorious ones, and there was no observable difference.” 2nd Enoch 22:8-10

Similarly Canto VI (parthian hymn-cycles) describe resurrection into heaven as a place where “he [God] clothes their bodies in the garment of gladness.”

Philip, in his prayer before death, and evidently anticipating the heavenly condition (cf. Acts 6:15), says, “Clothe me in thy glorious robe and the seal of light that ever shineth” (James, ANT, p. 450),

Origen (On First Principles, 2.3.7) speaks of the best and purest spirits, who must have some kind of body, being changed according to their degree of merit into an ethereal condition

The point is that all of these types of Judeo-Christian literature, in describing the time periods of pre-birth, mortality, and resurrection, assumes the context of a spirit being clothed with a body of one type or another.

The early Judeo-Christian belief of a spirit clothed in a body is also supported by a great deal of mature theological exposition and exegesis surrounding this base doctrine.

The early Judeo-Christians had multiple, detailed textual descriptions and discussions of the nature of this spirit-body relationship.

For example, the Talmudic view is that the spirit benefits from its partnership with the body. Without the body, the spirit would be unable to do certain holy, redemptive work of following the commandments. The opposite is also true, the sins that the body commits are because the spirit directs the body and thus shares responsibility for sin.

This concept exists in multiple, similar examples from both ancient Christian and Jewish Literature. For example, the Jewish Talmud describes how the Emperor Antoninus tried to dismiss this Judeo-Christian belief and show it was unjust by claiming the body and spirit could each excuse itself from sin by claiming that sins were the fault of the other, since the body, without the spirit is lifeless, and the spirit, alone could not commit certain sins such as stealing.

Antonius’ argument where the body and spirit blame each other is described thusly : ““The body says, ‘The spirit sinned, for from the day it separated from me, behold, I have been lying like a silent stone in the grave.’ Also the spirit can say, ‘The body sinned, for from the day I separated from it, behold I have been flying in the air like a bird.” This concept of separate spirit and body is correct. It is the improper application of justice which causes Antonius to lose the debate.

Rabbi Yehudah, in response, offers the parable of Two guards, one who is blind and one who is lame who are both in a garden. The lame gets on the shoulder of the Blind man and together, they are then able steal fruit from a high tree.

When caught, each claims innocence saying that he was unable to commit the crime due to his disability (blindness and lameness). The blind man could not see the fruit to steal it and the lame could not rise to steal the fruit. In the end, the orchard owner places the lame man on the back of the blind man, and they are subsequently found out and both judged as having responsibility (91b). Rabbi Yehuda explain that, in a similar fashion, God judges the actions of the body and soul as partners at the resurrection.

The Talmudic text says : “What did he (the king) do? He made the lame man ride upon the blind and he judged them as one. .So the Holy One, blessed be he, brings the spirit and placing it in the body, he also judges them as one. For it is said, ‘He will call to the heavens from above and to the earth, so he might judge his people.’ ‘He will call to the heavens from above’ – this to the spirit. ‘And the earth so he might judge his people’ –this to the body.” Babylonia Talmud, Sanhedrin 91a,b;

The same parable and the concept also existed in early Christian literature and the versions are equivalents. The Christian version says : “What then does the just judge do? Realizing in what manner both had been joined, he places the lame man on the blind man and examines both under the lash. And they are unable to deny; they each convict the other. The lame man on the one hand saying to the blind man, “Did you not carry me and lead me away? And the blind man to the lame, “Did you yourself not become my eyes? In the same way the body is connected to the soul and the spirit to the body, to convict (them) of (their) common deeds. And the judgment becomes final for both body and spirit, for the works they have done whether good or evil.” Apocryphon of Ezekiel frag 1 vs 6-11;

Many, many other descriptions of death in early Judeo-Christian literature represent this same duality of Body-Spirit.

For example, At the death of Adam, his body remains in the earth, yet God communicates with Adam’s spirit as I demonstrated from the narrative from Life of Adam and Eve (apocalypse).

After Adam died “ … God called Adam and said, “Adam, Adam.” And the body answered from the ground and said, “Here I am, Lord.” 2 And the Lord said to him, “I told you that you are dust and to dust you shall return. 3 Now I promise to you the resurrection; I shall raise you on the last day in the resurrection with every man of your seed.” (41:1-3) In such metaphorical descriptions, it is not Adams' lifeless body in Hades which is speaking to God, but rather it is Adams still living spirit which had been placed in the body during Adams lifetime which is answering God.

Jonah 2:3 Uses a similar example of someone crying from hades and being heard by God. And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. και εισηκουσε μου εκ κοιλιας αδου κραυγης μου φωνης μου.


This, and many, many other example demonstrate how the early Christians themselves describe their interpretation of the dual nature of mankind as dust (or body) and spirit, represented in Ecclesiates 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

However, because the verse disagrees with the Jehovahs Witness theology (which denies the existence of this spirit), the meaning of the text must be explained away or modified. In this case, this is done by re-interpretation.

For example Deeje, you claimed that in the Jehovahs Witness, religion, this verse is re-interpreted to mean : “Returning the "spirit" (breath) to a resurrected human is what Ecclesiastes means.” (Deeje in post #91 of a different thread)

In Early Judeo-Christianity, there was no need to modify or re-interpret the text because, to the ancient Judeo-Christians, the verse meant exactly what it seemed to mean. Upon death, the body disintegrates and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. The religious context of these ancient texts is that a spirit exists which was given by God and, after death, this spirit returns to God

There are many examples of this principle in the ancient Christian literature.

For example, the Rechabites describe a version of Ecclesiates 12:7 thusly : “9 And then the spirit of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God with joy. 10 But we with one accord see the spirit when it leaves the body clearly and plainly; the appearance of the spirit when it leaves the body is the likeness of a glorious light, and formed and imprinted in the likeness and type of the body, and it is spiritually flying. History of the Rechabites 15:9-10

This is simply another Christian confirmation that Ecclesiastes 12:7 does not need re-interpretation but rather the original text is correct, that “…the dust return(s) to the earth as it was”. And when His Rechabite narrative speaks of how the spirit “leaves the body” and “Ascends up to God with joy”, it is simply another confirmation that Ecclesiates is true when it witnesses that “the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

This was the point in quoting Apo Ezra where the narrative says “…fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

Such witnesses confirm the early Christian belief in Ecclesiates 12:7 where body, (as dust) return(s) to the earth as it was: and the spirit return (s) unto God who gave it.



THE SPIRITS OF MANKIND IN HADES/SHEOL/SPIRIT WORLD/GRAVE/DEATH/TARTARSUS ETC.

Sheol was often described in physical terms in early sacred texts.

For example, it is an actual place, a place of darkness (Psalm 88:13, Job 10:21, 22) and silence (Psalm 115:17). It has location and is located in low places (Numbers 16:30, Ezekiel 31:14, Psalm 88:7. In 1 Samuel 2:6, God PUTS people in Sheol. (1 Samuel 2:60)

The pseudoepigraph Daniel 12:2 describes their ultimate condition, "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence."


REGARDING KATZPURS DESCRIPTION OF HADES AS THE INTERMISSION IN A PLAY

Part of the reason I like @Katzpurs’ model is that it is both descriptive and symbolic of the ancient model of Hades as a Place in the middle, placed between two important periods of time, between death and resurrection.


1) HADES AS “THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE”

Early Judeo-christian textual descriptions of Christian belief are often disorienting for individuals who start to study them, partly because there are so many terms that are used for the same principle. For example, descriptions of the “intermediate” world between mortality and Final Judgment is described by many terms in early texts.

Both texts and translators of various early texts use many words to refer to this place such as SHEOL - HADES - SPIRIT WORLD, PARADISE, TARTAURUS sometimes "HELL" is used. Occasionally, it is only the context that saves us from confusion in terms. For example, instead of Hades, other terms have also been used to describe this same place in different contexts.

An early common theme is that death, for the righteous, meant rejoining one's ancestors. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, and other patriarchs are "gathered to their people" after death (see Gen. 25:8, 25:17, 35:29, 49:33; Deut. 42:50; 2 I. 22:20). In contrast, the wicked are "cut off from their people" (Gen. 17:14; Ex. 31:14).

It is a place of emotions such as the Lamentations of regret 3:55; Jonah 2:7, Job 26:5). For example, those in Sheol rise up to greet the once proud and mighty leaders who have now been brought low as they are

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HADES IS BETWEEN CORUPTIBLE MORTALITY AND THE INCORRUPTIBLE RESURRECTION

It was said of a person, “ Either he will be in this world or in the resurrection or in the places in the middle.” (The gospel of Phillip) All individuals who leave mortality through death, but are not yet resurrected, enter this place in the middle, i.e. Sheol, hades, spirit world, paradise, etc. (or whatever other term a text or person uses)

This is the same principle that the prophet enoch describes saying that “paradise is in between the corruptible and the incorruptible.” (2 Enoch 8:5) indicates the ancient meaning for Paradise which moderns often forget. (i.e. it refers to the gardens OUTSIDE of the kings castle, and not inside his dwelling. i.e. it was a place outside of heaven ). The different terms for the same place or principle create confusing contexts and interpretations.

For example, this ancient use of the word “Paradise” changes the meaning of Jesus promise to Dymas (the thief crucified beside Jesus) that he would “be with me in paradise” (luke 23:43). In this context, It was not “heaven” Dymas the thief was promised, but it was “paradise”, which, in this case was also the place between corruptible mortality and judgement.

The “complainer” Ezra also speaks of the same principle when he remarks to Jesus in a vision, regarding the end of his (the prophet Ezras’) life : “Bewail me, all holy and just ones, because I have entered the bowl of Hades.” (Apoc of Ez 7:1). The glorified Jesus reminds Ezra that he himself had been there as well : “Hear, Ezra, my beloved one. I, being immortal, received a cross, I tasted vinegar and gall, I was set down in a grave. And I raised up my elect ones and I summoned up Adam from Hades (The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4).

This refers to Jesus descensus as a spirit into this middle place while his body remained in the tomb before resurrection. But more on this later.

2) ALL WHO DIE GO TO THIS SPIRIT WORLD (THE PLACE IN THE MIDDLE)

In this ancient Christian theology, all spirits, including the Patriarchs and prophets, upon the death of their body, enter this spirit world. : “do you not know that all those who (spring) from Adam and Eve die? And not one of the prophets escaped death and not one of those who reign has been immortal. Not one of the forefathers has escaped the mystery of death. All have died, all have departed into Hades, all have been gathered by the sickle of Death.” (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 8:9; 7)

“ And Death said, “Hear, righteous Abraham, for seven ages I ravage the world and I lead everyone down into Hades – kings and rulers, rich and poor, slaves and free I send into the depth of Hades (T of Abr (rec A) 19:7) .

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations Ο αδης κατωθεν επικρανθη σθναντησας σοι...

“For Death deceived Abraham. And he kissed his hand and immediately his soul cleaved to the hand of Death....13...the undefiled voice of the God and Father came speaking thus : “Take, then my friend Abraham into Paradise, where there are the tents of my righteous ones and (where) the mansions of my old ones, Isaac and jacob, are in his bosom... (TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension A) 20:9,13-15) Though he uses the word, "paradise", it is this place in the middle that he is actually referring to.

None of these references refer to a torturous "Hell" that developed in later Christian movements.



3) CONDITIONS IN HADES VARY ACCORDING TO THE MORAL CHARACTER OF THE PERSON WHO INHABITS IT

Another point of confusion regarding Hades is that in early Judeo-Christian literature, the experience there is NOT the same for all individuals since individuals are divided according to their degree of righteousness. For the righteous, it was pleasant, for those who were evil, it was a prison of sorts. This partly explains its association with punishment....

Thus the ancient texts describe it differently according to who is sent there (i.e the righteous vs the unrighteous). Since the dead had looked upon the long absence of their spirits from their bodies as a bondage of sorts, was often referred to as a "prison" in early textual references.

There are “levels” in hell in early Judeo-christian theology.

For example, KJV Deut 32:22 reads For a fire is kindled in my anger, and shall burn to the lowest hell, ….” Οτι πυρ εκκεκαυται εκ του θυμου μου καυθησεται εως αδου κατωτατου

Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. και επι πεταυρον αδου συναντα.

For example, Hades was often described as a place of punishment and purging. Thus Psalms 9:17 says “The wicked shall be turned into hades, even all the nations forgetting God….”

While death affects ALL, such verses refer to the wicked who are sent to the lowermost portions (the parts of hades where punishment occurred) of hades.

Thus, verses such as Psalms 86:13 where the writer expresses “…you have rescued my soul out of lowermost hades.”, they are not speaking of a “deeper grave”, but of a “deeper” place in Hades where punishment occurred.

Psalms 116:3 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow. : κινδυνοι αδου ευροσαν με...

Similarly, Isaiah 14:9 speaks of those who have done evil who end up in “Lower Hades” which “has been embittered meeting you…”

Even the context of Hades as a way station are of a “place” that has “room” to take more inhabitants. For example, Proverbs 27:20 specifies that “Hades and destruction are not filled up…”

Hades, in early Judeo-Christian worldviews, was full of individuals who were cognizant and could communicate and “speak”, Thus, Eze 32:20-21 speaking of those who die and are “laid with the uncircumcised” refer to those who “… shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword” and “The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him…”

Inside this model of Hades, as a place both of rest and of punishment (depending up one’s degree of righteousness), Jesus tells the parable in Luke 16:23 of the rich man “who also died and was buried.” In this model, the man still exists and is cognizant “and in Hades, being in anguish, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off”. (vs 23). In early Judeo-Christianity, Hades had different areas for the good and the evil.

The reference to lower portions of Hades vs higher levels is retained and references in other texts such as 2 Pet 2:4 where God described angels who sinned and who he “cast them into hell and committed them to pits of neither gloom to be kept until the judgment…”

Even this pseudoepigraphic verse written (presumably by Peter when in Rome), uses the word “Tartaurus” (gk ταρταρωσας) to an audience who would have been familiar with use of this word in Greek symbology as the lowest region of the underworld where spirits were in anguish.

In describing Sheol, Enoch is shown in his vision that this middle place has separate “areas” for individuals to be “assigned to”. In his vision, Enoch asks the angel : ”For what reason is one separated from the other? And he replied and said unto me, “These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead might be separated. And in the manner in which the souls of the righteous are separated (by) this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not been executed upon them in their lifetime,... until the great day of judgment...They will bind them there forever–even from the beginning of the world. ....Such has been made for the souls of the people who are not righteous, but sinners and perfect criminals; they shall be together with (other) criminals who are like them. (1Enoch 22:9-13)

Since the righteous are with the righteous, they seem to adapt to a calm existence, the unrighteous, being grouped with others of their type and having increased awareness of the result of their moral choices become unhappy in their regrets and distress. And, Hell/Sheol/world of spirits itself also had a “middle place” according to this ancient model.

In Abraham’s description of Hades, he asks the angel : “Is one who is unable to enter through the strait gate unable to enter into life?...4 And Michael answered...you will enter through it unhindered, as will all those who are like you.”...And when they went, they found an angel holding in his hand one soul of a woman from among the six myriads, because he found (her) sins evenly balanced with all her works, and they were neither in distress nor at rest, but in an intermediate place.. ( TESTAMENT OF ABRAHAM (recension B) 9:1-10)

The point is that for the righteous, this world of spirits was not particularly unpleasant but for the unrighteous it was a place of some distress. It is this variable nature of Hades which allows it to acquire multiple names that characterized it both as "paradise" AND "prison" without being in actual conflict.

For example : Enoch, in his vision of Hades/Sheol, describes those there who are still teaching moral law to others : “Come and I will show you where the souls of the wicked stand, and where the souls of the intermediate stand;... He said to me: The souls of the wicked are brought down to sheol....Samki’el is in charge of the souls of the intermediate, to support them and purify them from sin, through the abundant mercies of the Omnipresent One. “ (3en 44:1-3)

In this early Christian doctrine, Hades was not simply a place where souls “sleep”, but they were cognizant and communicate and still had free will.

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HADES IS NOT THE SAME THING AS DEATH OF THE BODY, BUT IT FOLLOWS DEATH OF THE BODY

Just as a “spirit” is not, technically, the same as a “soul”. Death is not the same as Hades. This is often simply assumed in written descriptions.

For example, Revelations 6:8 speaks of the two with the implication that they are two different things. “And I saw and behold, a pale horse and it’s riders name was Death, and hades followed with him. And they were given power….” Indeed, this same verse has “hades followed him after him (death) in 2329 and Pc syh] While the first version of the text assumes this, the second version confirms that Hades was seen as “following after” death rather than being the same thing.

Similarly, Revelations 20:13 Speaks of Death, giving up it’s dead and Hades giving up it’s dead. “Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. “ The text keeps the ancient timeline as well. One Dies, THEN Hades, THEN judgment.





4) THE DESCENT OF JESUS CHRIST INTO HADES
The descent of Christ into “the place in between” (sheol, hades, hell, etc.) after his death is described in multiple ancient accounts.

For example, One is The Gospel of Bartholomew. In this account, the Apostle Bartholomew asks the resurrected Jesus : “Lord, when you went to be hanged on the cross, I followed you at a distance and saw how you were hanged on the cross and how the angels descended from heaven and worshiped you. And when darkness came, I looked and saw that you had vanished from the cross; only I heard your voice in the underworld,.....Tell me, Lord, where you went from the cross.”

In this christian account, Jesus summarizes his descent into Hades saying : "I went to the underworld to bring up Adam and all the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.... When I descended with my angels to the underworld ,in order to dash in pieces the iron bars and shatter the portals of the underworld”... “ I shattered the iron bars....And I brought out all the patriarchs and came again to the cross.... “I was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children.” (The Gospel of Bartholomew chapt one)

A biblical reference to this history is 1 Peter 3:18–20 when it explains the death of Christs flesh (i.e. “body”) but what his spirit was doing in the three days before his resurrection.

"For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous one for the unrighteous ones, to bring you to God. The flesh indeed being put to death yet the spirit made alive. In which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."


Early Christian texts contains multiple testimonies of the living Jesus after his resurrection AND descriptions of Jesus actions in Hades when he visited the “spirits imprisoned” there.

For example, Matthew 27:52 observes that after Jesus resurrected, the graves of many of the saints opened and the bodies of many individuals who had died were also resurrected with Jesus and these individuals went to Jerusalem and appeared to many others. "The tombs broken open and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised Jesus’ resurrection, came out of the tombs and entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…" (Matt 27:52)


IF something like this happened, one would expect diaries and literature that both reported and described it. Thus, early christian literature describes this happening and conditions in hades as well.


Joseph (of Arimathea) observes to those discussing Jesus resurrection :

“Why then do you marvel at the resurrection of Jesus? It is not this that is marvelous, but rather that he was not raised alone, but raised up many other dead men who appeared to many in Jerusalem. And if you do not know the others, yet Symeon, who took Jesus in his arms, [Luke 2:34] and his two sons, whom he raised up, you do know. For we buried them a little while ago. And now their sepulchers are to be seen opened and empty, but they themselves are alive and dwelling in Arimathaea”...Joseph said: “Let us go to Arimathaea and find them.” Then arose the chief priests Annas and Caiaphas, and Joseph and Nicodemus and Gamaliel and others with them, and went to Arimathaea and found the men of whom Joseph spoke.” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch one)

These men then speak with the resurrected sons of Symeonwho had died, and gone to the world of Spirits, converted to Christianity while in the spirit world, and had then been resurrected with many others at the resurrection of Christ and who were walking among and teaching others regarding Jesus. The brothers described what happened in this Spirit world (sheol, hades, etc).

“We, then were in Hades with all who have died since the beginning of the world. And at the hour of midnight there rose upon the darkness there something like the light of the sun and shone, and light fell upon us all, and we saw one another, and immediately our father, Abraham, along with the patriarchs and the prophets, was filled the joy, and they said to one another: “This shining comes from a great light.” The prophet Isaiah, who was present there, said : “This shining comes from the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. This I prophesied when I was still living: The land of Zabulon and the land of Nephthalim, the people that sit in darkness saw a great light.” Then there came into the midst another, an anchorite from the wilderness. The patriarchs asked him: “Who are you?” He replied: “I am John, the last of the prophets, who made straight the ways of the Son of God, and preached repentance to the people for the forgiveness of sins.....And for this reason he sent me to you, to preach that the only begotten Son of God comes here, in order that whoever believes in him should be saved,....Therefore I say to you all: When you see him, all of you worship him. For now only have you opportunity for repentance because you worshiped idols in the vain world above and sinned. At another time it is impossible” (Gospel of Nicodemus Ch two)

I might make the point here that it is not only John the Baptist’s spirit who is teaching the other souls the gospel, but the spirits of the other Patriarchs among the spirits of men are teaching the gospel and many other spirits are also “called to testify” and teach gospel truths to the others in the spirit world.

The story continues : “Now when John was thus teaching those who were in Hades, the first-created, the first father Adam heard, and said to his son Seth: My son, I wish you to tell the forefathers of the race of men and the prophets where I sent you when I fell into mortal sickness.”

Seth then teaches the others regarding the "oil of mercy" that Adam requested and that Seth was told “go and tell your father than after the completion of fifty-five hundred years from the creation of the world, the only-begotten son of God shall become man and shall descend below the earth. And he shall anoint him with that oil. And he shall arise and wash him and his descendants with water and the Holy spirit. And then he shall be healed of every disease....When the patriarchs and prophets heard this, they rejoiced greatly.” This same message was NOT merely for Patriarchs and Prophets, but for all souls there who would listen. Anyone who heard this preaching could both understand it and accept or reject it.

In chapter four, Satan adjures "Hades" to prevent Jesus from coming if it is possible, “For I believe that he comes here to raise all the dead”....” and while Satan and Hades were speaking thus to one another, a loud voice like thunder sounded: “Lift up your gates, O rulers, and be lifted up, O everlasting doors, and the King of glory shall come in”...David said: “Do you not know, blind one, that when I lived in the world, I prophesied that word: ‘Lift up your gates, O rulers?’” (Ps 23:7). Isaiah said: “I foresaw this by the Holy Spirit and wrote: ‘The dead shall arise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised up, and those who are under the earth shall rejoice (ps 26:19) O death, where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory.’” .....the gates of brass were broken in pieces and the bars of iron were crushed and all the dead who were bound were loosed from their chains, and we with them. And the King of glory entered in like a man, and all the dark places of Hades were illumined.”.

The sons of Symeon, speaking of Jesus, continue to relate that : Ch VIII ...the King of glory stretched out his right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam and raised him up. Then he turned also to the rest and said: “Come with me, all you who have suffered death through the tree which this man touched. For behold, I raise you all up again through the tree of the cross. With that he put them all out. “

Importantly, the sons of Symeon testify : All this we saw and heard, we two brothers who also were sent by Michael the archangel and were appointed to preach the resurrection of the Lord, but first to go to the Jordan and be baptized. There also we went and were baptized with other dead who had risen again. Then we went to Jerusalem also and celebrated the passover of the resurrection. But now we depart, since we cannot remain here. And the love of God the Father and the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all [2 Cor. 13;14].” (The Gospel of Nicodemus- Christ’s descent into hell ch XI)

Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes the early Judeo-Christian teaching concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades.

Remember, the Jehovahs Witness religion is NOT the same religion as the early Judeo-Christians believed in. The ancient christian movement is more than 2000 years old and the Jehovah Witness movement with its interpretations are only about 200 years old.

Your interpretation and your texts are not the same as the early Judeo-Christians believed in.


I think @sojourner was correct in offering Scotts observation that “…a culture that does not affirm life after death does not speculate about it. (@sojourner in post #157).

Similarly, your modern religion which denies the existence of spirits will not easily recognize nor speculate about this doctrine in early texts. As I pointed out earlier, yours is a non-historical religion and it does not exist in the world of historical data and historical texts.

It should come as no surprise then, that your modern religion will not be aware of nor able to speculate about religious principles the historical Christians believed in.


I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful

Clear
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END OF FOUR POSTS

Crikey @Clear....is there anything you'd like to add to this topic?

Clear said:

I like @Katzpurs model of phases of the existence of spirits (post #146) where she described a three act play, 1) pre-birth existence, 2) mortal life, and 3) post Death judgment and resurrection with hades serving as an “intermission” of sorts where spirits await resurrection

I also like the specific point that @sojourner, (citing an author) made. “… a culture that does not affirm life after death does not speculate about it” I think this is correct to a certain extent. Since the creators of your modern religious movement did not retain the ancient concept of a spirit when your religion was created, your religion will neither recognize nor use the ancient scriptures in the same way the ancients did when they referred to spirits.

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I really don't believe that the truth ever rests on something as flimsy as "I think" or "I like"....sometimes the truth is hard to swallow and therefore nothing to do with what we like or think. It is what it is, regardless of what any of us like to think.

'No one comes to the son without an invitation from the Father'. (John 6:65) No amount of schooling or degrees can earn that. It does not depend on the extent of one's knowledge, but on the condition of one's heart.

The scriptures themselves do not teach that a disembodied spirit departs from the body at death to inhabit another realm. This idea was adopted from Greek Platonism, not from the Bible. And it fits in nicely with the devil's first lie that "you surely will not die".....yet God said that they would, and it was simply a return to the dust...no heaven or hell was ever mentioned.

Clear said:

Obviously, there is an entire genre of early judeo-christian literature that describes the early Judeo-Christian teaching concerning hades as the place after death and before resurrection / judgment, and that this place was described, using multiple terms besides hades.

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And I reject all of them as equal to scripture. I really don't care what early Judeo-Christian writers said.....I will formulate my truth from the Bible. You will not find an immortal soul in any passage of accepted canonical scripture. The two words are never found side by side in a single verse.

The soul and the spirit are not interchangeable terms....they mean completely different things.

From my own study of the scriptures, minus the additions of those post first century writers and 'after the fact' Judaic explanations of Hebrew scripture, I come to a very different conclusion to you. Scripture is enough for me. I do not need apocryphal books and the ideas of men who "think" they know what scripture means, to form my Christian view....why? Because Jesus foretold that "weeds" would be planted by the devil via men corrupting the teachings of the Christ, just as the Pharisees had corrupted the meaning of their scripture. Jesus dressed them down over it.

This foretold apostasy in Christianity was already surfacing in the first century, yet whilst the apostles lived, the weeds were kept at bay....but once they had passed away, there was nothing preventing all manner of falsehoods being introduced to the point where the resulting "church", taught nothing but lies. What masquerades as "Christianity" today, is nothing of the sort IMO.

Clear said:

Remember, the Jehovahs Witness religion is NOT the same religion as the early Judeo-Christians believed in. The ancient christian movement is more than 2000 years old and the Jehovah Witness movement with its interpretations are only about 200 years old.

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It was also prophesied that God would 'cleanse, whiten and refine' a people in "the time of the end". (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)
Why "cleanse" if there was no soiling....or "whiten" if there was no staining, or "refine" if there were no impurities?The wicked would understand nothing....given no insight.
Christendom was rife with false teachings and they had to be cleaned up.
And I dare say that the teachings of Mormonism are a complete departure from anything found in canonical scripture. I made a brief excursion into the Mormon faith in my early twenties....it was farcical.

Clear said:

Your interpretation and your texts are not the same as the early Judeo-Christians believed in.

Click to expand...

I'd rather my accepted interpretation be based on solid scripture than the musings of the "weeds" sown by the devil that surfaced in the early centuries and are still clearly visible today.
It is my choice as one who was raised in Christendom to reject what does not agree with the teachings of Jesus. .....the "church" (whatever that is) has nothing to say to me. You may be happy to entertain their viewpoints...but if they are wrong, then so are all those who accept their doctrines.

"Few" are actually on the road to life according to Jesus......and "many" traveling the superhighway to nowhere are going to be shocked when Christ rejects them as those he has never known. (Matthew 7:13-14; Matthew 7:21-23)

I'll stick with what I know. I found the truth 50 years ago and I have never deviated from it....and never will.

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Hi @Deeje

Deeje asked : “Crikey @Clear....is there anything you'd like to add to this topic? (post #185)

Yes, thank you.

I have already pointed out that Jehovahs Witness theology on the specific point of lack of spirits represents a departure from historical Christianity. I wanted to make a comment regarding the religious posture that assumes all early Christians who wrote their testimonies were all "heretics". This is an irrational, incoherent and historically non-sensical position to take.


1) RELIGIOUS POSTURING ("I'm right and all others are wrong." "I follow the bible and all others do not.", etc.)

Deeje said : From my own study of the scriptures, minus the additions of those post first century writers and 'after the fact' Judaic explanations of Hebrew scripture, I come to a very different conclusion to you. (post #185)

The Key admissions in this sentence is that you form your opinions From your own study and that your personal interpretations bring you to a very different conclusion.

My conclusion is that the earliest Christians themselves knew more about the earliest Christian movement and their own beliefs than you know about them.


WHY IS A MODERN CHRISTIAN RELIGION WITH NEW BELIEFS AND NEW INTERPRETATIONS TO TAKE PRIORITY OVER THE EARLIEST CHRISTIAN RELIGION WITH IT'S ANCIENT BELIEFS AND ANCIENT INTERPRETATIONS

While you admit that your personal interpretations are different than that of the earliest Christians, this begs the question :

Why are your personal interpretations of ancient texts and the doctrines you derive from interpretation to be preferred over that of the apostles and the earliest Christians and their interpretations of ancient texts?

For example, Clement was a colleague of the apostle Peter and Clement tells us Peter taught him that man had a spirit. Why does your personal, modern interpretation of scripture take priority over that of either the apostle Peter or Clement who actually knew the Apostle Peter?



Deeje said : “Scripture is enough for me…..” (post #185)

This is simply more religious posturing.

Most of us christians like to tell ourselves that we base our religious beliefs on scripture.

The truth is that we base our religious beliefs on our own INTERPRETATION of those texts. There are many other Christian religions whose doctrines are very different from yours, yet they feel they base their doctrines on scriptures, just as you claim to do. It is not so much that biblical texts are so different, but rather it is, generally, the different INTERPRETATIONS of texts that so often creates different conflicting doctrines.

Like everyone else, you interpret scriptures but you do not know what the scriptures meant to the people who actually wrote them. The meaning, intended by the original writer is more important to understanding the original writers historical theology than the meaning you, as a modern, non-historian place on the text.



Deeje said : “I do not need apocryphal books and the ideas of men who "think" they know what scripture means, to form my Christian view....why?” (post #185)

MOST FORMS OF CHRISTIANITY PRODUCE LITERATURE THAT WITNESSES TO THEIR BELIEFS; EXPLAIN THEIR BELIEFS, EXPOUND AND PROSELYTE THEIR BELIEFS.

For example, The early Christians produced religious literature. Similarly the Jehovahs Witness movement produces a great deal of religious literature such as the Watchtower magazine that offers “ideas of men who ‘think’ they know what scripture means” and this is done to influence people to form your Christian views.

Just as the Jehovahs Witness magazine “Watch Tower” explains and expounds the doctrines of their new religion, the early Christians also wrote and produced literature which explained and expounded the doctrines of the apostles and prophets of the earliest Centuries.

Your new religious doctrine where no spirit exists in mankind simply doesn’t exist in these early Judeo-Christian texts. It is a new innovation, a new doctrine, a new interpretation. It is not historical.

For example :
Your religion was created in the 19th century.
The New Testament Christian movement originates in the first century.

Your religion was created through the “ideas of men” who thought they knew what scripture meant. (the very thing you claim to reject)
The New Testament Christian movement originated through Christ and through revelation of Apostles and Prophets.

These are two different things. Anyone can form a religion with any beliefs. What they cannot do is form the HISTORICAL Christian religion without paying some attention to history.

Jehovahs Witness Movement is not historical is because there is no historical evidence that their new interpretations of scripture relating to the lack of existence of spirits ever existed before the 19th century.

Original Christianity on the other hand was characterized by a great deal of literature from the early Christian Apostles and leaders who, in their desire to proselytize and teach, wrote a great deal about the earliest Christian beliefs which explained and expounded their beliefs.




JEHOVAHS WITNESS THEOLOGY IS A CORRUPTION SIMILAR TO THE CORRUPTIONS THEY CRITICIZE

Deeje said : “Because Jesus foretold that "weeds" would be planted by the devil via men corrupting the teachings of the Christ, just as the Pharisees had corrupted the meaning of their scripture. Jesus dressed them down over it.” (post #185)

I agree that religions can create bad theology and also corrupt the meaning of scripture. Jehovahs Witness religion is a good example of this.


THE RE-INTERPRETATION OF SACRED BIBLICAL TO SUPPORT A MODERN THEOLOGY

Early Christianity quoted Ecclesiates 12:7 “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.”

In early Christianity, the text meant just what it seemed to say regarding those who die. The dust (of man) will return to earth and the spirit (of man) will return to the God who gave it.

In the modern Jehovahs Witness religion, the verse is reinterpreted to mean “Returning the "spirit" (breath) to a resurrected human is what Ecclesiastes means.” (Deeje in post #91 of a different thread)

In Early Judeo-Christianity, there was no need to modify or re-interpret the text because, to the ancient Judeo-Christians, the verse meant exactly what it seemed to mean. Upon death, the body disintegrates and the spirit returns to the God who gave it. The religious context of these ancient texts is that a spirit exists which was given by God and, after death, this spirit returns to God

For example, early Christians said, that, upon dying : “…the spirit of our blessed brother leaves the body in which it had settled; and with joy far removed from mourning it approaches and comes to the holy angels and ascends up to God… Rechabites 15:9-10

This confirms early Christians believed the scriptural version where “…the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” instead of the Jehovah Witness interpretation of Ecclesiates

Another witness from early Christianity shows they did not have to re-interpret the scriptures. Apo Ezra confirms the scriptural version of Ecclesiates, saying “…fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the soul [spirit], departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” The Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 6:26 & 7:1-4;

Multiple such witnesses confirm the early Christian belief in the actual text of Ecclesiates 12:7 where body, (as dust) return(s) to the earth as it was: and the spirit return (s) unto God who gave it. Rather than the Jehovahs Witness re-interpretation where a “breath” returns to “a resurrected human”.

The early Christians remained anchored to the text and what the text said, rather than needing to re-interpret or modifying the text to match the theological theory.


THE MODIFICATIONS OF SACRED BIBLICAL TEXT TO SUPPORT A MODERN THEOLOGY

The Jehovahs Witness religion that was created in the 19th century is, in details, so unlike the Christianity of the scriptures, that, in certain instances, I’ve noticed the Jehovahs Witness movement resorted to changing the scripture to conform to their theology, rather than conforming their theology to the authentic scriptural text.


For example : matthew 27:52
Regarding the time after the resurrection of Christ, the authentic scriptural version of Matthew 27:52 reads : “… the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And, coming out of the tombs after his rising (Jesus), went into the holy city (Jerusalem), and appeared to many." (gk Και τα Μενμεα ανεωχθησαν και πολλα κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθη και εχελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις)

Feeling a necessity to create text that could agree with Jehovahs Witness theology, Frederick Franz changed the text of the Jehovahs Witness bible he created to read : “And the tombs* were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up 53 (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people. “ (NWT)

In early Christianity, there was no need to change the text.
To the early Christians, the text meant exactly what it appeared to mean.
The bodies of the saints arose when Jesus arose, and they entered the city and other people saw them.

According to the Jehovahs Witness theology (which required a change of the authentic text), : “The bodies of the "saints" were thrown out of their graves by an earthquake. None of those were resurrected, they were still dead bodies. It was the people who saw them that reported what happened in the graveyard to the people in the city." (Deeje post #192 of a different thread)

In early Christianity, the text is a powerful and profound witness of the resurrection of other individuals as well as Jesus and these resurrected individual were seen by many.
In the Modern Jehovahs Witness religion, the text is changed to mean that there are people near the tombs that see dead bodies, and the living go to Jerusalem and "became visible".

Thus the change to the text changes a powerful witness of the resurrection into a relatively meaningless statement.

After discussing this example, I informed forum readers that 1) the Greek translators GN-4 reveals there are NO variants of import to this specific verse in any NA-28 listing. Thus, the Jehovahs witnesses cannot justify manipulating the text due to any similar variant. I told readers that 2) There is no authentic source greek text which either introduces or refers to other “persons” present besides the bodies of the saints that are arising. I informed readers that 3) there is no reflexive form of “appeared” (ενεφανισθησαν) in any Greek source text.

POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

POST TWO OF TWO


Such changes to the new testament text are not “biblical” nor authentic at all.

I invited ANY Koine Greek reader on the forum to even claim this verse is an authentic "translation" of the actual greek source text. There were no takers. If there ARE any takers who read this, now is the time to make your case.

In early Christianity, there was no need to re-interpret the meaning of text. In early Christianity, the text meant just what it appeared to mean.

The early Christians had no need to change the text itself as the Jehovahs Witness had to do in order to claim to be “biblical”.

I think that one needs to embrace and use authentic biblical text rather than change the text and then claim to be “biblical”.


IT IS IMPROPER FOR THE JEHOVAHS WITNESSES TO CHANGE THE BIBLICAL TEXT
Not only does Deut 4:2 prohibit us from adding or taking away from the text, we are not to “add thereto, nor diminish from it. (Deut 12:32) Revelations 22:18-20, similarly, prohibits this, adding that “If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. “

There are important reasons that the sacred text should not be re-interpreted nor modified in order to create and support a new religion.



Deeje said : “I'd rather my accepted interpretation be based on solid scripture than the musings of the "weeds" sown by the devil that surfaced in the early centuries and are still clearly visible today.”. (post #185)

The point has already been debunked. This statement is simply religious posturing.

Your modern interpretations and textual manipulations are NOT “solid scripture” and the claim to be based on “solid scripture” is bogus.

The very changes to the sacred Biblical text which Jehovah Witness movement made in the biblical text are part of the “weeds” and apostasy predicted. I suppose this deep irony is not lost on readers.

In any case @Deeje, your religion is NOT based on "solid scripture", else your religion would have no need to re-interpret texts nor especially to modify and change the texts you say are sacred and "solid" to you.

I apologize if I seemed blunt. I don't want to offend you and I honestly honor you for honoring God. I honor you for sacrifice for your beliefs. I honor you for any efforts you make at simply doing what you think is correct (whether I think it is correct or not). However, my point is that yours is not a historical religion and that we should have some degree of honor for the historical doctrines the apostles taught, and which the earliest christians tried to pass on to us in their literature.

I hope your own spiritual journey is wonderful and insightful Deeje.

Clear
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