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Who is the least tolerant?

What sorts of people are the least tolerant of human diversity, the religious or non-religious?

  • Religious people

    Votes: 21 84.0%

  • Non-religious people

    Votes: 4 16.0%
  • Total voters
    25
epronovost

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Piculet said:
Haya (Shyness)
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It seems I was correct. Shyness is indeed the inappropriate word to translate this concept which would be closer to honesty or even more accurate honor. Whatever word you use to describe "haya" the idea that an ability to feel guilty and shameful for a transgression and fearing such sensation is something that's common to every single moral system ever designed. In fact, it doesn't even need to be taught since in most cases since it seems to be an inate ability of the human to feel remorse and guilt after a bad action. Of course there are some exceptions for example sociopaths don't have this ability at all and cannot acquire it directly and it can be deviated by finding a moralistic escape hatch.
 
Piculet

Piculet

Active Member
epronovost said:
It seems I was correct. Shyness is indeed the inappropriate word to translate this concept which would be closer to honesty or even more accurate honor. Whatever word you use to describe "haya" the idea that an ability to feel guilty and shameful for a transgression and fearing such sensation is something that's common to every single moral system ever designed. In fact, it doesn't even need to be taught since in most cases since it seems to be an inate ability of the human to feel remorse and guilt after a bad action. Of course there are some exceptions for example sociopaths don't have this ability at all and cannot acquire it directly and it can be deviated by finding a moralistic escape hatch.
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I'm not sure you read the first paragraphs, but as ever you like to think.
 
epronovost

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Piculet said:
I'm not sure you read the first paragraphs, but as ever you like to think.
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I did. Whoever wrote that piece linked the concept of haya to a series of word as if they were all synonimous or even part of the same familly of word which isn't the case. I suppose that whoever wrote that isn't a professional in the domain of translation of islamic theological texts.
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Piculet said:
Total hypocrisy
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What to you is total hypocrisy is to me the flowering of God's plan for humanity - all faith paths acknowledged as leading to God - just as different rivers lead to the sea. So to me the growth of interfaith groups is God's will.
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Agreeing with @epronovost ...

Piculet said:
Haya (Shyness)
Click to expand...
Reading that page, I would not translate Haya as shyness. The page itself agrees that the term has many concepts with very different meanings. Shyness, self-respect, honor and humility are very different things.

This term covers a wide number of concepts. In English, it may be translated as modesty, shyness, self-respect, bashfulness, shame, honour, humility, etc. The original meaning of Haya according to a believer's nature, refers to a bad and uneasy feeling accompanied by embarrassment, caused by one's fear of being exposed or censured for some unworthy or indecent conduct.

Islamically Haya is an attribute which pushes the believer to avoid anything distasteful or abominable. It keeps him/her from being neglectful in giving everyone what is due upon them, and if for any reason he/she is not able to keep up with his/her commitment then they will feel extremely uncomfortable and ashamed about this. The reason being that he/she will have displeased Allah by breaking a commitment.
 
Piculet

Piculet

Active Member
epronovost said:
I did. Whoever wrote that piece linked the concept of haya to a series of word as if they were all synonimous or even part of the same familly of word which isn't the case. I suppose that whoever wrote that isn't a professional in the domain of translation of islamic theological texts.
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I see. You are an expert in the Arabic language and Islamic theological texts. You should spread your knowledge. It is disgraceful how all those scholars keep mistranslating such a simple word about which you know much more.
 
epronovost

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Piculet said:
I see. You are an expert in the Arabic language and Islamic theological texts. You should spread your knowledge. It is disgraceful how all those scholars keep mistranslating such a simple word about which you know much more.
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No I'm not, but I can use a thesaurus correctly and tell you that the usage of the term shyness is inappropriate in that context. That I'm not a translation expert of muslim texts doesn't make an similarly incompetant person better. If you are the author of this unsigned article I would say you need a better understanding of the english language to make a proper translation.
 
Piculet

Piculet

Active Member
epronovost said:
No I'm not, but I can use a thesaurus correctly and tell you that the usage of the term shyness is inappropriate in that context. That I'm not a translation expert of muslim texts doesn't make an similarly incompetant person better. If you are the author of this unsigned article I would say you need a better understanding of the english language to make a proper translation.
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I would say, the article describes shyness, but then again, who cares what you think about the translation?
 
epronovost

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Piculet said:
I would say, the article describes shyness, but then again, who cares what you think about the translation?
Click to expand...

What hypocrisy from you to link vulgarisation and information material about Islam and not care about its quality. That's akin to a teacher saying that he or she doesn't care about the quality of his or her didactic material or its effect on students.

This sort of reaction to legitimate criticism smells like a severe lack of "haya".
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Piculet said:
I would say, the article describes shyness, but then again, who cares what you think about the translation?
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So to you the article describes someone who is easily frightened and not someone who is modest, humble and honorable.
 
sun rise

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
Piculet said:
I would say, the article describes shyness, but then again, who cares what you think about the translation?
Click to expand...
You might get further if you did not insult us and challenge our knowledge of the English language without proof from English language sources.

Maybe the Quranic Arabic translation really does mean timid and fearful rather than modest. But I have to say, when I read a translation walking "modestly" versus [fearfully] makes quite a difference in meaning.

Then came one of the two (women) to him, walking [fearfully][modestly]. She said, "Surely my father invites you that he may recompense you with the reward of your watering for us." So when he came to him (i.e., to Shuaayb) and had narrated to him the narration, he said, "Do not fear (anything): you have (been) delivered from the unjust people."
 
Piculet

Piculet

Active Member
Mestemia said:
With what authority do you make the claim of having a superior understanding?
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I think the others are nitpicking because they want me to be wrong. I think the article couldn't be clearer, the objections are laughable and most importantly, their opinion doesn't matter because they don't care about the topic, don't wish to learn and don't even understand the meaning of the word. (I still am not convinced they read the article with any thought because the article contradicts what they say :confused:)
 
Piculet

Piculet

Active Member
sun rise said:
So to you the article describes someone who is easily frightened and not someone who is modest, humble and honorable.
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Read the description rather than try to find a fitting word from the English language since we all know, there usually isn't one.
 
McBell

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Piculet said:
I think the others are nitpicking because they want me to be wrong. I think the article couldn't be clearer, the objections are laughable and most importantly, their opinion doesn't matter because they don't care about the topic, don't wish to learn and don't even understand the meaning of the word. (I still am not convinced they read the article with any thought because the article contradicts what they say :confused:)
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Are you basing your position on that article?
Are there other articles that support your claim?

So far as I can tell, you present one article you agree with and are saying that the reason others are disagreeing with you and your single solitary article is because "they want you to be wrong".

Perhaps instead of trying to make it about you, you present something to support your claim other than making unsubstantiated accusation?

I mean, if all of mainstream Islam agrees with you, you should have no problems what-so-ever presenting loads of articles that support your claim.

Interesting that your baseless accusations of their motives is what is "most important" to you..
 
epronovost

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Piculet said:
Read the description rather than try to find a fitting word from the English language since we all know, there usually isn't one.
Click to expand...

I did and my objection to the use of the term "shyness" to describe "haya" is about what english word is the most appropriate to describe the concept of "haya". Shyness isn't the correct one. Sure there is indeed no exact translation in the english language for such a concept, but there a better words than shyness like honor, steadfast, integrity. Even then these three words aren't quite the same either. I'm arguing about a point of translation not a point of theology. I read the article and I understand this very common and universal moral concept.
 
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