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Why I happen to be genderless.

SESMeT

Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?

I would say it would depend on your empathic skills and your knowledge of philosophy. I would say it's possible in general, but that doesn't mean it's possible for your specifically in the same fashion it's possible for people to dunk, but I sure can't do that.
 

SESMeT

Member
I would say it would depend on your empathic skills and your knowledge of philosophy. I would say it's possible in general, but that doesn't mean it's possible for your specifically in the same fashion it's possible for people to dunk, but I sure can't do that.

Whatever my knowledge of philosophy ... it's certainly greater than my empathy-skills. Although it's not my fault that my brain is this way :)
 

epronovost

Well-Known Member
Whatever my knowledge of philosophy ... it's certainly greater than my empathy-skills. Although it's not my fault that my brain is this way :)

That sounds harshly self-deprecating. Empathic skills are skills and they can be practiced and improved just like knowledge of philosophy can be gained. If you desire it and you are ready to put the necessary work, you will probaably be able to at least approximate reasonnably well how it feels to be men or women however vague it might be.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?

Welcome to RF. It is good that you are open SESme....(sorry, Aladdin somehow crept in there) JK.

It is good to understand the perspective of someone who has no “wiring” (if that is the right term) for either gender. This complex issue of gender confusion (with so many different presentations) is only just beginning to be understood. So we welcome your insights into what difficulties you face, now and into the future.

How do you present physically (if you don’t mind me asking) and do you dress according to that, or more neutrally?
What gender were you raised to be? And at what age were you aware of your problem (if you view it as such).

Looking forward to your insights.....
 

SESMeT

Member
Welcome to RF. It is good that you are open SESme....(sorry, Aladdin somehow crept in there) JK.

It is good to understand the perspective of someone who has no “wiring” (if that is the right term) for either gender. This complex issue of gender confusion (with so many different presentations) is only just beginning to be understood. So we welcome your insights into what difficulties you face, now and into the future.

How do you present physically (if you don’t mind me asking) and do you dress according to that, or more neutrally?
What gender were you raised to be? And at what age were you aware of your problem (if you view it as such).

Looking forward to your insights.....

I dress in comfortable clothes and I don't wear anything stereotypically female. Most people would think that because I don't wear skirts, dresses or present myself as female that I am thereby presenting myself as male. I'm not so sure though but even if it's true that I wear stereotypically male clothes rather than unisex clothes ... to me that's just for reasons of convenience because I was brought-up male due to being biologically male and I have no reason to change my dressing habits because I have no resistance to that. It's also why I have no problem with being referred to as a "he". However, if somebody called me a "she" I wouldn't feel at all misgendered. I personally like "they" best ... not because I am at all against being referred to as a he or a she ... but just because I think it most accurately describes me because I really don't feel male or female at all. Not that I would at all mind, care or be offended or bothered by being referred to as a he or a she besides the fact that I prefer accuracy to inaccuracy. People are also welcome to disagree so I'm not claiming to be accurate or right here. Not wanting to debate my own gender ... just saying what I think is accurate in the sense of what I personally feel or don't feel. I'm not aware of feeling male or female at all. I hope I'm making sense. I'm not sure what it would mean to feel male or female. Perhaps it would at least partly be down to being able to feel misgendered which is something that I'm unable to feel? What do you think?

I was raised male and I don't think I see that as a problem. For a few years now, when I was in my 20s but not sure exactly how old, I've seen gender as separate to sex ... sex being biology and gender being about how you feel. I realised more recently, perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, that I'm not actually sure what it means for me to feel male or female and for that reason I've concluded that I must be genderless.
 

Eddi

Agnostic
Premium Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?
I was going to go into my own gender issues in this reply, but I'll spare you them :D

Anyway: I think the answer to your question (it is possible for a genderless person to realise what it's like to be male and female?) depends on how much empathy said genderless person has
 

SESMeT

Member
That sounds harshly self-deprecating. Empathic skills are skills and they can be practiced and improved just like knowledge of philosophy can be gained. If you desire it and you are ready to put the necessary work, you will probaably be able to at least approximate reasonnably well how it feels to be men or women however vague it might be.

I'm not meaning to be harshly self-deprecating. Perhaps I can learn to improve my cognitive empathy skills but I doubt that I will ever be good because I struggle to put myself into the point of view of somebody else. It is only now that I realize that you were talking, specifically, about cognitive empathy, though. I really do completely lack the compassion/affective kind. Not meaning to be harsh on myself or anything ... it's just the case that I'm unable to care about anybody but myself and I was just born that way. I'm not meaning to debate this or say that anybody is wrong if they think that I care while I think that I don't and can't. Perhaps such people are right and I'm wrong about myself somehow. I just think that I would know if I did when the subject is my own mental qualities or lack thereof. I think that it's most likely just a fact of my neurobiology. I don't think I can choose to not care or even choose to not have a desire to care. I just find myself lacking the motivation to care and it just seems to be the way I am.

But I think I can still be a nice person for purely selfish reasons :) And that may be sufficient for some people who think that actions speak the loudest. Or for people who think that love is more about the way you treat people than the way you feel.

In other words, perhaps I can still *be* caring without caring?
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
I've seen gender as separate to sex ... sex being biology and gender being about how you feel.

I think many of us if not most would agree about biology and gender identity as being separate.

I realised more recently, perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, that I'm not actually sure what it means for me to feel male or female and for that reason I've concluded that I must be genderless...
I just find myself lacking the motivation to care

If you don't care, that's fine. If you were curious, you could explore by dressing in a stereotypical gendered way and see how you felt and/or how others reacted to you and how that made you feel.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I dress in comfortable clothes and I don't wear anything stereotypically female. Most people would think that because I don't wear skirts, dresses or present myself as female that I am thereby presenting myself as male. I'm not so sure though but even if it's true that I wear stereotypically male clothes rather than unisex clothes ... to me that's just for reasons of convenience because I was brought-up male due to being biologically male and I have no reason to change my dressing habits because I have no resistance to that. It's also why I have no problem with being referred to as a "he". However, if somebody called me a "she" I wouldn't feel at all misgendered. I personally like "they" best ... not because I am at all against being referred to as a he or a she ... but just because I think it most accurately describes me because I really don't feel male or female at all. Not that I would at all mind, care or be offended or bothered by being referred to as a he or a she besides the fact that I prefer accuracy to inaccuracy. People are also welcome to disagree so I'm not claiming to be accurate or right here. Not wanting to debate my own gender ... just saying what I think is accurate in the sense of what I personally feel or don't feel. I'm not aware of feeling male or female at all. I hope I'm making sense. I'm not sure what it would mean to feel male or female. Perhaps it would at least partly be down to being able to feel misgendered which is something that I'm unable to feel? What do you think?

I was raised male and I don't think I see that as a problem. For a few years now, when I was in my 20s but not sure exactly how old, I've seen gender as separate to sex ... sex being biology and gender being about how you feel. I realised more recently, perhaps 1 or 2 years ago, that I'm not actually sure what it means for me to feel male or female and for that reason I've concluded that I must be genderless.
Thank you for that.
If you are biologically male, did you go through puberty with resulting changes to your physical body through testosterone related changes like facial hair and voice breaking? IOW was your body aware of being male, whilst your brain was basically silent on the issue?

Is your genderless identity purely a brain related abnormality or is it hormonally related as well?

Interesting too is the self focus and lack of empathy you speak to of. Are these related, do you think? Or do you see them as separate issues?

We are all learning here, so your insights are educational for us.
 

SESMeT

Member
If you don't care, that's fine. If you were curious, you could explore by dressing in a stereotypical gendered way and see how you felt and/or how others reacted to you and how that made you feel.

I think I'd care about being judged because I don't enjoy being judged ... and I think I'd be more likely to be judged if I dressed female than if I dressed male.... but aside from that I don't think I'd feel anything. I guess I could dress stereotypically male because there wouldn't be any stigma about that and I could check, at least, to see if I enjoyed that or not. I think that's kind of already been done though. I've had a girlfriend who tried to get me to dress more boyish and have my hair cut really short. I felt silly rather than bad ... only silly because I felt like it was totally pointless besides doing it to please her because I have no interest in looking boyish personally. I have kept the short haircut, though--it's the one thing I've kept--but that's because I think that just shaving my head and beard all down to the same short level all over is the laziest and easiest way for me to have my hair and beard cut and prevents my hair getting in my eyes or my beard getting in my food, lol. So, I guess I just hairdress for comfort just like I clothes-dress for comfort. And I don't like being judged by judgemental people ... but I don't think I have any sort of preference with regards to any gender. Does this make sense?
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?

There's male roles and female roles. So you not attracted to any of these gender activities?

My wife tells me it's a man's job to fix stuff around the house. Not that I agree as much but I suppose that is a gender role.

What manley stuff do I do...
Umm, fix toilets. That seems to be the man's job around my house.
Less stuff that I'm attracted to doing. More stuff that expected of me.
Don't like watching sports. Don't like working on cars. Don't like to barbeque.

Well, I'm sexually attracted to women, that's about the only male thing I got going on.

I suppose I have to do the male role thing to attract the females who are looking for someone to fill the male role in a relationship.

I suppose evolution sets most up to be attracted to the opposite sex. We just enhance the gender thing to be more attractive to the opposite sex. It's all about the procreation.
 

SESMeT

Member
Thank you for that.
If you are biologically male, did you go through puberty with resulting changes to your physical body through testosterone related changes like facial hair and voice breaking? IOW was your body aware of being male, whilst your brain was basically silent on the issue?

Is your genderless identity purely a brain related abnormality or is it hormonally related as well?

Interesting too is the self focus and lack of empathy you speak to of. Are these related, do you think? Or do you see them as separate issues?

We are all learning here, so your insights are educational for us.


My body has become male ... I'm not sure what it would mean for my body to be aware of that maleness. I'm aware of my biological maleness but I'm not sure what it would mean for me to feel male.

I think my self focus and lack of empathy are related. I think that if I cared about other people I'd be more motivated to see things their way. But there are also plenty of people who care deeply about other people but struggle with seeing other people's points of views. And there are also people who don't care about others but are very good at seeing the point of view of others. I think I lack both cognitive (cold) empathy and affective (warm) empathy. I think that because I am completely selfish I'd be rather manipulative and psychopathic if I was good at cognitive empathy. But I'd have to be so good at it that I'd get away with being manipulative. And even the craftiest of psychopaths can get caught ... so perhaps it's also wise from a selfish point of view for me to not manipulative people no matter how good my cognitive empathy skills are or aren't. But I also think that the reason why I've never been a bully, even as a child, is not just because I have no sadistic bone in my body ... but also because I'm very bad at manipulating people. And very bad at lying. (This is also why I don't tell even white lies because I always think that the other person can tell I'm lying).

And I'm certainly not saying that people with great cognitive empathy skills are psychopaths. Like I said, there are plenty of people with such skills who care about people too much to manipulate them. And there may also be people who don't care about others and have such skills but still think it's not worth risking getting caught.

Anyway, I hope I'm making sense. I think that even from a purely selfish perspective it isn't a good idea for me to lie, manipulate or hurt others. Even though I don't care about others. Because I'm very bad at manipulating and deceiving. And even if I wasn't the risks are too great... even from a purely selfish standpoint.

I hope this isn't seen as getting off-topic. I am just trying to explain that while I do think that I lack both cognitive empathy and affective empathy .... and even though I think that that is somewhat related because I don't have any real motivation to be able to see the perspective of others .... my point, and what I am trying to explain, is that I don't think that lacking one kind of empathy implies a lack of the other kind. Perhaps there is some correlation but I don't think there is causation. There are plenty of people who care deeply about others even when they can't understand them ... and there are plenty of people who can understand others very well even though they don't care. It just so happens that I don't think that either applies to me. And I think that most people have at least some parts of both kinds.

There's male roles and female roles. So you not attracted to any of these gender activities?

My wife tells me it's a man's job to fix stuff around the house. Not that I agree as much but I suppose that is a gender role.

What manley stuff do I do...
Umm, fix toilets. That seems to be the man's job around my house.
Less stuff that I'm attracted to doing. More stuff that expected of me.
Don't like watching sports. Don't like working on cars. Don't like to barbeque.

I think that gender roles are social constructs and different from gender identity. I don't think any of those things are inherently male or female. I just think that such stereotypes are enforced by our society.

Well, I'm sexually attracted to women, that's about the only male thing I got going on.

I see that as also gender neutral. Lesbians, for instance, are attracted to women but I don't think that makes lesbians masculine.

I suppose I have to do the male role thing to attract the females who are looking for someone to fill the male role in a relationship.

I don't think that I'm particularly mentally or physically unattractive so perhaps my not doing the male role thing is partly what explains why I've never been particularly successful with women? Although, now I have the best girlfriend ever (hyperbole, my opinion, and only the best girlfriend ever *for me* ... not a serious debaters point!) and finding her eventually was 100% worth all my past failures with women.

I suppose evolution sets most up to be attracted to the opposite sex.

It does but I don't think that there's anything normative about that. What do you think?

We just enhance the gender thing to be more attractive to the opposite sex. It's all about the procreation.
I think that most people do ... because of evolution ... but I don't think that there's anything normative or inherently masculine or feminine about any of it, per se.
 
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sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
@SESMeT , what you've been writing caused me to remember a poem by the great Sufi Hafiz as rendered by Dan Ladinsky. He's writing from a Divine perspective, but the start of the poem is what I had in mind:

How Does It Feel To Be a Heart?

Once a young woman said to me,
“How does it feel to be a man?”


And I replied, “My dear, I am not so sure.”
Then she said, “Well, aren’t you a man?”


And this time I responded, “I view gender
as a beautiful animal that people often take
for a walk on a leash


and might enter into some odd contest
in hopes of winning a strange prize.”


My dear, a better question for Hafiz
would have been, “How does it feel to be a heart?”


For all I know is Love.
I find my heart infinite,
and everywhere.
 

SESMeT

Member
@sun rise

I personally think that poem is really beautiful. I've never seen it before. Thank you for sharing it with me. I don't normally like poems but that one resonates with me deeply.
 

Brickjectivity

wind and rain touch not this brain
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?
Without a common frame of reference the question is impossible to answer. If anyone asks me what its like to be me I cannot tell them, unless we share some feelings in common, some experiences, some desires. Yes the question has a subject, verb and object; yet who can actually transfer in words the meaning of being themselves?

If another man asks me what its like to be a man I can answer, because we're both men. I can't tell a woman. I can only tell a woman a little bit about it. She obviously can't understand what being a man is like.
 

Deeje

Avid Bible Student
Premium Member
I've had a girlfriend who tried to get me to dress more boyish and have my hair cut really short. I felt silly rather than bad ... only silly because I felt like it was totally pointless besides doing it to please her because I have no interest in looking boyish personally. I have kept the short haircut, though--it's the one thing I've kept--but that's because I think that just shaving my head and beard all down to the same short level all over is the laziest and easiest way for me to have my hair and beard cut and prevents my hair getting in my eyes or my beard getting in my food, lol. So, I guess I just hairdress for comfort just like I clothes-dress for comfort. And I don't like being judged by judgemental people ... but I don't think I have any sort of preference with regards to any gender. Does this make sense?

This gives us a great insight into your situation. Picturing you now as being bearded, certainly shows that you are very male in your presentation.....but this has more to do with your reluctance to shave? Did I read that right? That no one would question your gender just by appearances?

Since you mention a “girlfriend”, I am wondering if this is just a ‘friendship’ with a girl, or a deeper relationship or partnership?
Does genderless mean being A-sexual? (sorry if that is too personal)

My body has become male ... I'm not sure what it would mean for my body to be aware of that maleness. I'm aware of my biological maleness but I'm not sure what it would mean for me to feel male.

This begs the question of whether gender identity is produced in a specific part of the brain, since hormonally, it sounds like you matured biologically according to your birth gender.....but your mind is out of sync with your body.

Gender issues more commonly talked about involve gender dysphoria, being trapped in a body of the opposite sex....but your situation is not so widely discussed, so thank you for your insights.
 

SESMeT

Member
This gives us a great insight into your situation. Picturing you now as being bearded, certainly shows that you are very male in your presentation.....but this has more to do with your reluctance to shave? Did I read that right?

Absolutely! I stay unshaved until it is either so long that it starts to annoy me because it gets in my food and/or I get anxious about being judged for how I look. If nobody cared how I looked then I wouldn't either.

That no one would question your gender just by appearances?

I think most people see having a beard and not wearing a dress as inherently male. And I don't. But I do think that the fact that there are many ways in which I am *not* stereotypically male ... I think that that is probably noticiable. I think any maleness I have is via the path of least resistance. Any maleness that doesn't follow that path I won't bother with ... or at least ... not due to its maleness. I can happen to enjoy things that are stereotpyically male. But I can happen to enjoy things that are stereotypically female, too. I just might be less open about them if I would feel judged. But things like my clothes and hair aren't anything I would be interested in privately. I really don't care about how I appear. I don't bother to look in the mirror. I don't feel that I'm ugly or handsome. I think that objectively a lot of people would find me perhaps average or above average ... usually. But I only care how people see me if it allows me to get benefits or avoid being judged. I hope I am making sense.

Since you mention a “girlfriend”, I am wondering if this is just a ‘friendship’ with a girl, or a deeper relationship or partnership?

The deepest friendship I have ever had + a sexual relationship. Neither of us are quite sure about emotions so romance is not clearly defined to either of us. She's very like me.


Does genderless mean being A-sexual? (sorry if that is too personal)

Nope. So far I've only ever been attracted to ciswomen or transwomen. Almost always ciswomen. But some transwomen too. And I'm open to everybody. So far I just haven't been attracted to any cismen or transmen. But I'm potentially open to everybody. I have thought about this lately and I think that the best way to explain it is that I am a pansexual in principle but, thus far, I'm a hereosexual in practice. Although, by heterosexual I mean I'm biologically male and so far attracted only to females ... be them cis or trans (usually, but not always, cis so far).

But from the standpoint of my gender rather than my sex ... I guess it's not accurate to say that I'm hereosexual. Because how can I be attracted to the opposite gender if I don't have a gender? Basically, I'm just a human being who has thus far only ever been attracted to trans or cis women ... but isn't closed off to men in principle.





This begs the question of whether gender identity is produced in a specific part of the brain, since hormonally, it sounds like you matured biologically according to your birth gender.....but your mind is out of sync with your body.

I factually know that I am biologically male but I don't *feel* biologically male or female. So the absence of feeling is the issue.

Perhaps it would help if I pointed out the following: I am extremely alexithymic. Almost always being completely unaware of feeling anything at all makes it extremely hard for me to be aware of feeling anything specifically gendered.



Gender issues more commonly talked about involve gender dysphoria, being trapped in a body of the opposite sex....but your situation is not so widely discussed, so thank you for your insights.

You are welcome.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know what it would mean for me to feel male or female. For that reason I am genderless. I am sure that there are plenty of people who do know what such a thing means, perhaps in virtue of them knowing what that feels like, but it is something that does not apply to myself. My thought is that if I felt such a way I would be aware of it but I'm not aware of it so I don't feel it.

What I wonder is ... as a genderless person is it not possible for me to really know what it feels like to be male or female?
Now that I’m thinking about it, what does it even mean to feel like a woman? Or man?

I mean I don’t really dress feminine at all unless I’m going to a big fancy dinner/party or religious event. Even then I favour the trousers approach rather than a sari (half curry, I am.) But I mean even the males dress extravagantly and flamboyantly at those (compared to western culture anyway.) And it’s a special occasion, so it’s an exception not the rule.

The most traditionally feminine things I do usually revolve around me geeking out over something. Sharing my love of classic Disney movies with my friend, but even in that scenario she is more “feminine” as she focuses on princesses and I focus on action.

I don’t wear make up and the only jewellery I do wear are pieces that actually hold emotional weight for me.
I like shiny ear rings, does that count?

Isn’t gender on a spectrum anyway? And if you have none, then that’s cool too.

I guess I have experienced life as a woman, but I feel like Aussie culture is much more relaxed than other Western countries when it comes to gender expression, I can’t really speak of female experience in the west. Just my slice of Australiastan life.
:shrug:


Also @Deeje, mate, I never realised just how open minded you were about gender issues. That’s really cool, man.
 
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