Brian2
Veteran Member
Not all.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?
- Thread starter Frank Goad
- Start date
Not all.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Acts 24:12 speaks of a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.
The passages below sure sound like all are resurrected.
John 5:28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.…
Rev 20:4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.…
Brian2
Veteran Member
It sounds like something Satan would tell people. "Oh don't worry, that does not apply to you. I know it might look as if it's for all people but really it only applies to a special group of Christians."
The thing is that the anointed class idea is just a theory about the most symbolic and tricky to understand book in the Bible and it is a theory made up by a bunch of men who are known for changing their mind and doctrines as they go along, because they think that they got it wrong the first time.
Romans 8:7because the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the flesh cannot please God. 9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.…..............14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
If you look at Revelation 7: 4, you will see a finite number who are said (in Revelation 14:1-4) to be redeemed from among mankind as "firstfruits" (in an agricultural society, firstfruits are the choicest and first of the crop.....the secondary fruits are still good, but not of the same quality and which appear later.) so this indicates that there are others who are not in this first "crop". Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 goes on to identify a second group who also attribute salvation to God and the Lamb....
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” . . . . Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
These are the earthly survivors of the coming "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)......they are not numbered like the first group. But all are praising God for their salvation.
Yes indeed....we are all at the mercy of our own hearts, which God is constantly searching to see if they can be taught something new. Just like the Jews who accepted Jesus.....they had to contend with much opposition from those of their own families and community. Jesus told then to expect this. (Matthew 10:34-39) Jesus was not starting a new religion, but simply correcting ingrained understanding which had been corrupted for centuries. Same with Christendom. History is repeating and old mistakes are still being made....the same old deceiver is at work. His MO never changes....because it works.
Yes, as I have just explained....
The great crowd are not said to be in heaven...they are 'before the throne' of God, just as Israel were, in their earthly situation. No Jew expected to go to heaven.....it was never in their scripture or in their understanding originally. Resurrection is what they understood and it was entirely earthly, like the Kingdom was expected to be. They got that half right...the kingdom does rule the earth, but it does so from a heavenly vantage point. This is what Revelation 21:2-4 says....
" And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
How was God "with" his people Israel? Did he need to be physically present in order to rule them?
Where did this hangup about going to heaven get its start? We believe that it is a product of the apostasy along with all the other false doctrines that Christendom adopted over the centuries.
We got rid of all of them.
Now that is funny...you arrive at the same conclusion, but insist that it is by a means that you were taught, despite the fact that it was never stated in the Bible.
Just use the scripture as they were written.....[/QUOTE]
Most of this is getting so far off topic that I should not really answer, but really when God tells us something in the Bible that looks like it applies to all people then that is probably the case. It is the work of Satan to put doubts about God and what He has said in our mind. I'm talking about Romans 8 and being a child of God.
Sounds like a topic for another thread.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
Just as the book of Ecclesiastes is revealed to be a satirical work of Solomon aimed at those who did not believe in the life of the mind after the death of the body in which that mind had developed, and the later resurrection of the mind to bodily form.
Unless we receive an anointing with God's spirit we can never have a desire to go to heaven. Most people have a desire to live in paradise, but that is not heaven. The first paradise was entirely earthly...it is where God intended for us to live forever. There is no natural cause of death mentioned in Eden....death would only come as a result of breaking God's law.
Why do you think God removed access to "the tree of life"? (Genesis 3:22-24)
If you look at Revelation 7: 4, you will see a finite number who are said (in Revelation 14:1-4) to be redeemed from among mankind as "firstfruits" (in an agricultural society, firstfruits are the choicest and first of the crop.....the secondary fruits are still good, but not of the same quality and which appear later.) so this indicates that there are others who are not in this first "crop". Revelation 7:9-10; 13-14 goes on to identify a second group who also attribute salvation to God and the Lamb....
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” . . . . Then one of the elders addressed me, saying, “Who are these, clothed in white robes, and from where have they come?” 14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
These are the earthly survivors of the coming "great tribulation" (Matthew 24:21)......they are not numbered like the first group. But all are praising God for their salvation.
Yes indeed....we are all at the mercy of our own hearts, which God is constantly searching to see if they can be taught something new. Just like the Jews who accepted Jesus.....they had to contend with much opposition from those of their own families and community. Jesus told then to expect this. (Matthew 10:34-39) Jesus was not starting a new religion, but simply correcting ingrained understanding which had been corrupted for centuries. Same with Christendom. History is repeating and old mistakes are still being made....the same old deceiver is at work. His MO never changes....because it works.
Yes, as I have just explained....
The great crowd are not said to be in heaven...they are 'before the throne' of God, just as Israel were, in their earthly situation. No Jew expected to go to heaven.....it was never in their scripture or in their understanding originally. Resurrection is what they understood and it was entirely earthly, like the Kingdom was expected to be. They got that half right...the kingdom does rule the earth, but it does so from a heavenly vantage point. This is what Revelation 21:2-4 says....
" And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”
How was God "with" his people Israel? Did he need to be physically present in order to rule them?
Where did this hangup about going to heaven get its start? We believe that it is a product of the apostasy along with all the other false doctrines that Christendom adopted over the centuries.
We got rid of all of them.
Now that is funny...you arrive at the same conclusion, but insist that it is by a means that you were taught, despite the fact that it was never stated in the Bible.
Just use the scripture as they were written.....
Most of this is getting so far off topic that I should not really answer, but really when God tells us something in the Bible that looks like it applies to all people then that is probably the case. It is the work of Satan to put doubts about God and what He has said in our mind.
Thank you for re-posting what I said....it shows how much you failed to address....
Revelation clearly shows two different groups with two different numbers. One in heaven with the Lamb and the other before God's throne. These are said to come out of "the great tribulation" which occurs on earth.....these are the survivors. (Matthew 24:21)
If those who go to heaven are rulers and priests (Revelation 20:6)....who are their subjects? If they are resurrected "first" who is resurrected next?...and when?
If you wish....
Please read Matthew 25:31-46....vs.33 mentions the sheep and the goats. Sheep are the good ones, right?
Vs.40 mentions Christ's "brothers". They are not part of the sheep class mentioned above, and the sheep are not Christ's brothers....rather, the sheep 'do good things to' His brothers.
It's obvious that there are 2 separate contemporary groups that have Jesus' (and Jehovah's) blessing!
@Deeje can explain this in writing more elegantly than I can. Writing isn't one of my strong suits...I'm somewhat inhibited by a handicap. Plus, I'm more of a speaker.
If you're using your second statement as support for your first statement....that's apples and oranges. The "breath of life" (spirit), in Genesis 2:7, is the same as that in Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 & Psalms 146:3-4...it's the life-force in animate creatures.
But the "world of spirits" in the Judaic literature you refer to, are angelic creatures.
Brian2
Veteran Member
There is no spirit that goes beyond death Frank.....our spirit is our breath....nothing more in this context....why do you keep asking the same questions?
Have you considered why Paul pictured the body as a tent that we live in and which is replaced with a better one, and is something we can be absent from? 2Cor 5:1-10
I was wanting to touch on this....
Nathan did say something wrong.....he told David to do what he wanted and build a house to Jehovah.
But Jehovah told Nathan, "I don't want David to build Me a house."
Jehovah corrected Nathan, but he was still used by Jehovah. Jehovah always appreciates His servants' zeal and eagerness in support of His worship.
And yes, it served as a test to His people....
Jesus tested those following him, at John 6, when Jesus told them they needed to 'drink His blood & eat His flesh.'
It winnows out those who want to just 'get a reward' (and possibly later stumble someone), from those who genuinely want to worship God.
Nathan did say something wrong.....he told David to do what he wanted and build a house to Jehovah.
But Jehovah told Nathan, "I don't want David to build Me a house."
Jehovah corrected Nathan, but he was still used by Jehovah. Jehovah always appreciates His servants' zeal and eagerness in support of His worship.
And yes, it served as a test to His people....
Jesus tested those following him, at John 6, when Jesus told them they needed to 'drink His blood & eat His flesh.'
It winnows out those who want to just 'get a reward' (and possibly later stumble someone), from those who genuinely want to worship God.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Have you considered that dead matter cannot be alive or have consciousness and so what gives the consciousness is the breathe of life, the life force, the spirit God gave to Adam and so to us.
The Bible tells us that the spirit of man knows the mind of man. This would also entail memory. So our spirit knows what we are thinking and all that we know.
The spirit also wills, (the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak).
The spirit does these things (and more) in dead matter. When the dead matter works no longer as a body the life force goes, but now it is the essence of the person. It knows all that the person knew. It does not need the brain to keep knowing what it knew while in the body. This essence is the inner man. 2Cor 5:1-10 pictures our body as a tent that will be replaced after we die. A tent is a place where someone lives,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,even though in this case the tent is joined to the spirit and the 2 are the one person (soul). We need our tent to be whole as humans.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Actually I was thinking of Isaiah and Hezekiah when I replied the first time. I made a mistake with my hasty reply,,,,,,,,,,,just like Nathan did.
Yes Nathan did make a hasty reply that no doubt seemed right, and he made it before consulting God, who had different plans.
Yes God understands mistakes of his servants.
Are you saying that the Watch Tower's mistakes over the years can be seen in this light?
Yes I have...Paul, like his contemporaries was anointed for a role in heaven. He was not one of the 12, of whom it says in Revelation that they are the foundation stones of God's heavenly Kingdom. (Revelation 21:10-14) He has the role of a king and priest in that governmental arrangement. According to the prophesy in Daniel, in our time God will bring in the rulership of his Kingdom by crushing all corrupt human rulership out of existence, and replacing them. (Daniel 2:44)
A Kingdom is a "King" and his "dom"ain....so we as Christ's disciples, were taught to pray for God's Kingdom to "come" so that his will could "be done on earth as it is in heaven"...
The Kingdom was set up in heaven according to the Bible, and places were reserved for its future anointed rulers. (1 Peter 1:3-4).....then, after a cleansing of this earth of all wickedness, Revelation 21:2-4 says that God brings the rulership of his kingdom ...to "Man" here on earth.
How is God "with" his people in that case? In the same way that he was with his chosen nation when they were released from slavery in Egypt. He did that through human representatives....
So how does Paul figure in this? As an anointed chosen one, he was looking forward to leaving his sinful physical body and joining Christ in heaven. Like all other anointed ones he was keen to take up his assignment. The person who was Paul was waiting to shed his human flesh so that he could be resurrected in a spirit body like Jesus was....like all those who are anointed will be.
I am not one of the anointed and therefor have no desire to go to heaven.....I am happy to be a subject of the best government that this world has ever seen. A return to paradise is guaranteed.....the best life ever.
Brian2
Veteran Member
My understanding of the prophecy of Daniel, when I compare it with the gospels in which Jesus seems to say that the Kingdom of God was set up then (Matt 11:12,13), and with Peter calling the Christians of his day "a holy nation" (1Peter 2:9) and with John who said to the Christians then that they had been made a Kingdom (Rev 1:6) is that the Kingdom was started by Jesus and the citizenship has been growing since while awaiting the promised land when Jesus returns to rule in person (so to speak).
I have understood the Lord's Prayer to be a prayer not only for the coming of Jesus and the establishment of the fullness of the Kingdom, but as saying that it is where God's will is being done that God's Kingdom has come.
Since the Kingdom was set up by Jesus on earth, in embryo I see the JW idea of Jesus being anointed King and receiving the Kingdom in 1914 as wrong. Jesus was given the Kingdom to rule from the time of ascension (the ascension story of Acts 1 being reminiscent of the Daniel prophecy of Dan 7:13,14 when Jesus is given His Kingdom). Since that time He has been our Lord and ruler.
The inheritance mentioned in 1Pet 1:3,4 sounds similar to what Paul was speaking of at 2Cor 5:1-10. This would be our inheritance of eternal life in our imperishable and immortal bodies.
God was with the Israelites in the wilderness in person and is also with Christians these days in person as Jesus said would happen at John 14:23. The Lord is the Spirit (2Cor 3:17) so the Lord is with us.
Hmmm OK, but that does not explain why the body is termed a tent. Something lives in a tent just as something lives in the house not made with human hands which waits for us in the heavens,,,,,,,,,as it says, what is mortal is swallowed up by life. ie. Our mortal body will be replaced by an imperishable body.
The other analogy used by Paul in 2Cor 5:1-10 is that of being naked and clothed. It seems far fetched to say this is about Paul wanting to go and start his task of being part of God's Government.
But I guess you have to get far fetched when trying to fit scriptures, which don't naturally fit, to a man made idea that you may want to find evidence for in the scriptures. And what better place to try to do this than with a scripture that you are concealing the real meaning of,,,,,,,,,,,,,,which is that Paul was speaking of leaving his tent (old body) and being clothed with a new dwelling (his new imperishable body).
He was speaking of his inner man, which changes bodies.
Have you studied Daniel’s prophesies at all? In Daniel ch 2, Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar had a dream that was interpreted by Daniel. It was a prophetic march of world powers who all had a connection to Israel spanning a period called “the Gentile times” or “the appointed times of the nations”. This period, where God’s people would be under Gentile domination, was still going in Jesus’ day because he spoke of it. (Luke 21:24) Rome was then in power.
Daniel told the King that he was represented by the head of a huge image, made of gold. The breast and arms were of silver and represented Medo Persia, followed by the belly and thighs of copper representing Greece, then the legs of iron representing Rome and then the feet of iron mixed with with clay representing Britain and her later alliance with America in this time of the end.
The Kingdom of God is seen as a huge stone carved out of a mountain that strikes the image on its feet and it toppled and was shattered to pieces. The stone then became a large mountain and filled the whole earth. In Daniel 2:44 God’s kingdom is described as something that will crush all those kingdoms out of existence, and replace them as mankind’s only government. The kingdom of God is a heavenly government with Jesus as the King. It will bring mankind back into reconciliation with God. What was lost in Eden will be returned to the human race.
The Lord’s Prayer is not divorced from Daniel’s prophesy. When the Kingdom comes, it will rid the earth of all wickedness and replace failed human rulership with a true theocracy. We are praying for the kingdom to “come” to us...not that we will go to the kingdom.
Jesus did not receive his kingship on his return to heaven. In prophesy King David said at Psalm 110:1-2.....
"The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet."
אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:
2 The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies.
במַטֵּ֚ה עֻזְּךָ֗ יִשְׁלַ֣ח יְ֖הֹוָה מִצִיּ֑וֹן רְ֜דֵ֗ה בְּקֶ֣רֶב אֹֽיְבֶֽיךָ:"
This is God telling David's 'master' (the coming Messiah) to sit at his right hand and wait till God made his enemies a stool for his feet.
The coming of the kingdom was still a very long way off. But only in our counting of time. According to calculations made using Daniel's prophesy, the time for Christ's return was 1914 CE. The sign Jesus gave in Matthew 24 to inform his disciples of his "presence" (not his coming) was to begin with unprecedented warfare. 1914 saw the outbreak of the first global war in human history, followed by the pandemic of the Spanish flu and the resulting food shortages that hit the world. Great earthquakes too were to increase. All of the events had to take place in one period of time culminating in love being lost in a cold and heartless world. A global preaching of the good news of God's Kingdom was also part of the sign that Jesus was present, and guiding his disciples during these last days as he promised. (Matthew 28:19-20)
His manifestation was to come right at the end of the last days. Judging the nations, cleansing the earth, and bringing in the rule of his Kingdom.
Those chosen for life in heaven will indeed be resurrected in spiritual bodies. But the first resurrection was not to take place until Christ's return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
All slept in their graves until then, and those alive on earth from that time on will experience an instant transformation....no need to sleep in a grave.
God has never been with his people "in person" but always through an intermediary. It is why he appointed Jesus as Mediator. Sinful humans cannot come into God's presence. God spoke to Moses through that mediator in the Most Holy compartment of the Tabernacle when his communication was said to come from above the sacred ark of the covenant indicated by the Shekinah light. ....the same angel who also spoke to him at the burning bush. God's spokesman has always been the Logos. He still is to this day.
It does if it was the same man in a different body. Only God can transfer the lifeforce of a person from one body to another. Like taking off a suit and putting on another one. What is mortal puts on immortality....a human body cannot be immortal because it relies on external things to stay alive. A spiritual body has no such need. A spiritual body can live in the spiritual realm...a human body cannot.
But we could argue back and forth all day.....it wont change what I believe and apparently it won't change what you believe, but if others are reading they will be able to evaluate this conversation and take something useful from it.
The Anointed
Well-Known Member
And what of the graves of the Saints that were opened when the spirit of the Lord, which had filled the man Jesus on the day that he was baptised, abandoned his 'CHOSEN; heir and successor on the cross, who, three days later came out of their graves and entered the holy city and showed themselves to many?
Brian2
Veteran Member
I have looked at Daniel a bit, not that much.
Is there something wrong with my interpretation?
We don't have to go any further than the New Testament to see that Jesus started the establishment of the last Kingdom. It grows and with the return of Christ will finally fully crush all other Kingdoms.