Do you think this points to the body having a spirit that goes beyond death?

[Brian2]

Those chosen for life in heaven will indeed be resurrected in spiritual bodies. But the first resurrection was not to take place until Christ's return. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
All slept in their graves until then, and those alive on earth from that time on will experience an instant transformation....no need to sleep in a grave.

Yes the first resurrection is when Christ returns and brings people like Paul with Him to be resurrected into their resurrection bodies. (But of course Jesus does bring them with Him to be resurrected-----------indicating an existence outside the body)
And of course I have not heard of any JWs from 1914 on who have been whisked away without dying.

God has never been with his people "in person" but always through an intermediary. It is why he appointed Jesus as Mediator. Sinful humans cannot come into God's presence. God spoke to Moses through that mediator in the Most Holy compartment of the Tabernacle when his communication was said to come from above the sacred ark of the covenant indicated by the Shekinah light. ....the same angel who also spoke to him at the burning bush. God's spokesman has always been the Logos. He still is to this day.

God's presence went with Israel in the wilderness and if we believe the New Testament Christians have the Holy Spirit, which is the presence of both the Father and of His Son with those who love Him.
The angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament is the one who calls Himself Jehovah even if He is an angel. This indicates that He is not a servant of God by nature but was sent by God and is also God. Jesus did not have the nature of a servant until He became a man. (Phil 2)
Why can't a mediator between God and man be God by nature if He can be a man by nature?

It does if it was the same man in a different body. Only God can transfer the life force of a person from one body to another. Like taking off a suit and putting on another one. What is mortal puts on immortality....a human body cannot be immortal because it relies on external things to stay alive. A spiritual body has no such need. A spiritual body can live in the spiritual realm...a human body cannot.

But we could argue back and forth all day.....it wont change what I believe and apparently it won't change what you believe, but if others are reading they will be able to evaluate this conversation and take something useful from it.

Paul was not talking about himself being a life force that was transferred from one body to another, he was speaking of himself living in his body and leaving it and being clothed in another body, an immortal one.
Was Paul a life force with no personality and knowledge and character and will? I don't think so.
And anyway a recreation is not a resurrection and the end product is a copy only of the original person,,,,,,,,,,,,,who thinks it is the same person. I don't want to die and be replaced with a copy who thinks it is me and being surrounded by copies of other people who think they are the real deal and think I am the real deal. I, like Paul, want to come out of my body (the soul in Matt 10:28 that survives death of the body) and be clothed with a new body, a new house to live in. You make the tent into the whole person, but the person lives inside the tent.
And yes we may have gone as far as we can at the moment and are starting to go off topic a bit.

 

[Deeje]

And what of the graves of the Saints that were opened when the spirit of the Lord, which had filled the man Jesus on the day that he was baptised, abandoned his 'CHOSEN; heir and successor on the cross, who, three days later came out of their graves and entered the holy city and showed themselves to many?

Since the anointed are raised to life in heaven, (being raised in the spirit as Jesus was) the scriptures tell us that “Christ has been raised up from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in death.” . . . .“He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things.” These holy ones, therefore, could not have been resurrected with the prospect of endless life before Jesus was. (1 Corinthians 15:20; Colossians 1:18) No one was raised to immortal spirit life before Jesus.

They could not even have been resurrected to life right after Jesus was, as suggested by some, because Paul shows that the Christian holy ones will be resurrected and receive their reward “in that day,” when “the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet.” Paul did not even write this until many years after Jesus had been resurrected, and it was to be fulfilled far in the future. (2 Timothy 4:8; 1 Thessalonians 4:16)

In order to mesh with what rest of the Bible says, (as all doctrine must) this obscure passage is more than likely suggesting that this was no resurrection of “sleeping saints” but merely a throwing of bodies out of their tombs by the earthquake that occurred at Jesus’ death. People observing the bodies would have gone into the city to report it. You cannot take verses in isolation to prove doctrine.

 

[Deeje]

I have looked at Daniel a bit, not that much.
Is there something wrong with my interpretation?
We don't have to go any further than the New Testament to see that Jesus started the establishment of the last Kingdom. It grows and with the return of Christ will finally fully crush all other Kingdoms.

Daniel gives us a timeframe. The coming of the kingdom to settle affairs on earth was not to take place until the rulership of the last kings....the ones who dominate at present.

We are staring down the barrel of the end of failed human rulership....with its corruption and violent uprisings, and the beginning of the kingdom’s rule, then extended to this earth, ushering in an age of peace and security.

Jesus did indeed institute the new covenant with his 11 faithful apostles on the night before his death, and he put in place all that was necessary to gather the chosen ones and to set up his kingdom in heaven. These all future kings and priests died, but none went to heaven before Jesus returned to raise them to spirit life and to direct his disciples through this “time of the end” as he said he would. (Matthew 28:19-20) All the things that were to occur as part of the “sign” that Jesus gave to indicate his presence as King, are all clearly in evidence. (Matthew 24:3-14, 21)

 

[Deeje]

Yes the first resurrection is when Christ returns and brings people like Paul with Him to be resurrected into their resurrection bodies. (But of course Jesus does bring them with Him to be resurrected-----------indicating an existence outside the body)
And of course I have not heard of any JWs from 1914 on who have been whisked away without dying.

You are assuming that a resurrection needs a physical body. If you take Jesus’ post resurrection body, what do we see is different from the body he sacrificed? Was he raised in the same body?

There is quite a difference in Jesus’ contact with his apostles after his resurrection. He had lived with this band continuously for three and a half years, with them following his teachings of them specifically, and listening to his discourses to great crowds of people. But after his resurrection, the apostles remained as a close group but Jesus is not said to dwell with them. It is reported that he only “appeared” to them on various occasions. He was not always identifiable as the man they knew. He appeared in a locked room on one occasion, and when dining with them he broke bread and when they recognised him, he disappeared right before their eyes. What is that suggesting to you?

Being resurrected “in the spirit” means being resurrected “as a spirit”.....which means being able to dwell in the presence of God. Were spirit beings able to materialise human bodies in the past? Yes they were. Angels are spirits who can apparently materialize when bringing messages to God’s human servants. They were in every way, human...eating and drinking and in the case of the rebel angels in Noah’s day, able to produce offspring.
Jesus appeared in human form, but he was raised as a spirit....returning to his former spiritual state.

God's presence went with Israel in the wilderness and if we believe the New Testament Christians have the Holy Spirit, which is the presence of both the Father and of His Son with those who love Him.

Recognising the role of the Father, the son and the holy spirit is vital to understand the support system that is provided by the Father. When he handed the world over to the ruler that humans chose in Eden, he did not abandon Adam’s children, but those who turned to him with a complete heart were always directed by him and often received the added benefit and protection of the holy spirit.

I see no trinity of gods in that arrangement. I see one God the Father, his most faithful and trusted servant, his firstborn son who was “sent” on a rescue mission to redeem those who remained faithful to his God and Father, and the added power of the holy spirit when it was needed to further God’s purpose.

The angel of Jehovah in the Old Testament is the one who calls Himself Jehovah even if He is an angel. This indicates that He is not a servant of God by nature but was sent by God and is also God. Jesus did not have the nature of a servant until He became a man. (Phil 2)

Yes, a man who did all things to God’s glory, not his own. The man who, as a result of his faithful course, was elevated to a superior position and given a name above every other name.....how can he possibly be God whose name and position was already supreme? (Philippians 2:5-11)

In all cases where the Logos spoke for Jehovah...he spoke as if he was Jehovah. The three angels who visited Abraham, were angels....the one who identified as “Jehovah” was not God. He was representing him.....he spoke for him. His designation as the “Logos” means that he spoke God’s words.
The fact that one can imagine the Creator of the universe being squeezed into a human body is somewhat comical to me.

Why can't a mediator between God and man be God by nature if He can be a man by nature?

Jehovah is the Supreme Monarch of all his creation who has a vast army of servants, why would he need to come in human form when we can’t approach him in our sinful state without a mediator? If Jesus was God, then he too would not be able to dwell with sinful humans. That would make his role of mediator a bit of a joke.

Paul was not talking about himself being a life force that was transferred from one body to another, he was speaking of himself living in his body and leaving it and being clothed in another body, an immortal one.
Was Paul a life force with no personality and knowledge and character and will? I don't think so.
And anyway a recreation is not a resurrection and the end product is a copy only of the original person,,,,,,,,,,,,,who thinks it is the same person. I don't want to die and be replaced with a copy who thinks it is me and being surrounded by copies of other people who think they are the real deal and think I am the real deal. I, like Paul, want to come out of my body (the soul in Matt 10:28 that survives death of the body) and be clothed with a new body, a new house to live in. You make the tent into the whole person, but the person lives inside the tent.
And yes we may have gone as far as we can at the moment and are starting to go off topic a bit.

That is how you want to read the scriptures....but we must understand that God will not correct faulty thinking or corrupted interpretation, if that is what people want to believe. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I have faith in Jesus’ statement that no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44, 65) That to me says that not everyone identifying as “Christians” will be recognised by Jesus as one of his own. (Matthew 7:21-23) I will leave it to him to judge between those who claim, from those who are.

In the meantime I will promote God’s kingdom as the only government that I support.....the only government that has God’s spirit backing it, and God’s son at the helm. I believe that soon now we will see the final judgment and put all speculation and false expectation to bed......for good. It will mean life for some and death for many....but God has appointed his judge. What will be will be.

 

[The Anointed]

You are assuming that a resurrection needs a physical body. If you take Jesus’ post resurrection body, what do we see is different from the body he sacrificed? Was he raised in the same body?

There is quite a difference in Jesus’ contact with his apostles after his resurrection. He had lived with this band continuously for three and a half years, with them following his teachings of them specifically, and listening to his discourses to great crowds of people. But after his resurrection, the apostles remained as a close group but Jesus is not said to dwell with them. It is reported that he only “appeared” to them on various occasions. He was not always identifiable as the man they knew. He appeared in a locked room on one occasion, and when dining with them he broke bread and when they recognised him, he disappeared right before their eyes. What is that suggesting to you?

Being resurrected “in the spirit” means being resurrected “as a spirit”.....which means being able to dwell in the presence of God. Were spirit beings able to materialise human bodies in the past? Yes they were. Angels are spirits who can apparently materialize when bringing messages to God’s human servants. They were in every way, human...eating and drinking and in the case of the rebel angels in Noah’s day, able to produce offspring.
Jesus appeared in human form, but he was raised as a spirit....returning to his former spiritual state.



Recognising the role of the Father, the son and the holy spirit is vital to understand the support system that is provided by the Father. When he handed the world over to the ruler that humans chose in Eden, he did not abandon Adam’s children, but those who turned to him with a complete heart were always directed by him and often received the added benefit and protection of the holy spirit.

I see no trinity of gods in that arrangement. I see one God the Father, his most faithful and trusted servant, his firstborn son who was “sent” on a rescue mission to redeem those who remained faithful to his God and Father, and the added power of the holy spirit when it was needed to further God’s purpose.



Yes, a man who did all things to God’s glory, not his own. The man who, as a result of his faithful course, was elevated to a superior position and given a name above every other name.....how can he possibly be God whose name and position was already supreme? (Philippians 2:5-11)

In all cases where the Logos spoke for Jehovah...he spoke as if he was Jehovah. The three angels who visited Abraham, were angels....the one who identified as “Jehovah” was not God. He was representing him.....he spoke for him. His designation as the “Logos” means that he spoke God’s words.
The fact that one can imagine the Creator of the universe being squeezed into a human body is somewhat comical to me.



Jehovah is the Supreme Monarch of all his creation who has a vast army of servants, why would he need to come in human form when we can’t approach him in our sinful state without a mediator? If Jesus was God, then he too would not be able to dwell with sinful humans. That would make his role of mediator a bit of a joke.



That is how you want to read the scriptures....but we must understand that God will not correct faulty thinking or corrupted interpretation, if that is what people want to believe. (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

I have faith in Jesus’ statement that no one can come to the son without an invitation from the Father. (John 6:44, 65) That to me says that not everyone identifying as “Christians” will be recognised by Jesus as one of his own. (Matthew 7:21-23) I will leave it to him to judge between those who claim, from those who are.

In the meantime I will promote God’s kingdom as the only government that I support.....the only government that has God’s spirit backing it, and God’s son at the helm. I believe that soon now we will see the final judgment and put all speculation and false expectation to bed......for good. It will mean life for some and death for many....but God has appointed his judge. What will be will be.

Luke 24: 36-43; As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them.

It was after the man Jesus had been bodily resurrected that the lord translated that body of corruptible matter into the glorious light being that confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and revealed himself to be Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Deeje]

Luke 24: 36-43; As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, “Peace to you!” But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit. And he said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate before them.

It was after the man Jesus had been bodily resurrected that the lord translated that body of corruptible matter into the glorious light being that confronted Saul on the road to Damascus and revealed himself to be Jesus of Nazareth.

Jesus was raised in a spiritual body, otherwise he could not have re-entered heaven where he formerly resided with his Father. The body that he was resurrected with, was spirit...invisible like the angels. But just as other spirit beings had materialized fleshly bodies in order to deliver messages to God's servants on earth, so Jesus did the same when he "appeared" to his disciples. He did not always appear in the same body. On occasion, to convince his disciples that he wasn't a spirit (God's law forbade communication with spirits) he materialized so as to reinforce the idea that he was raised from the dead. He showed them his flesh and bones and ate in their presence to show them that he was in human form. A physical, bodily resurrection was all his fellow Jews understood, so that is how Jesus presented himself.

As one who had been transfigured before Peter James and John, Jesus had already given them a foregleam of his heavenly glory. This is what Paul experienced on the road to Damascus.

 

[The Anointed]

Jesus was raised in a spiritual body, otherwise he could not have re-entered heaven where he formerly resided with his Father. The body that he was resurrected with, was spirit...invisible like the angels. But just as other spirit beings had materialized fleshly bodies in order to deliver messages to God's servants on earth, so Jesus did the same when he "appeared" to his disciples. He did not always appear in the same body. On occasion, to convince his disciples that he wasn't a spirit (God's law forbade communication with spirits) he materialized so as to reinforce the idea that he was raised from the dead. He showed them his flesh and bones and ate in their presence to show them that he was in human form. A physical, bodily resurrection was all his fellow Jews understood, so that is how Jesus presented himself.

As one who had been transfigured before Peter James and John, Jesus had already given them a foregleam of his heavenly glory. This is what Paul experienced on the road to Damascus.

You can twist and distort the scriptures all that you want in you attempt to support your false belief that the minds of the those who lead wicked lives find peace and rest in death as they await the Great judgement. But you are wrong.

You seem to have forgotten about the Saints whose graves were opened when the spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (THE SON OF MAN) the anointed one of God who cannot die, which spirit had filled the man Jesus on the day of his baptism, abandoned his chosen heir and successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual entity, by releasing all the spirits of the righteous that had been gathered to him (Enoch) in his evolution and ascension to the throne of the most High in the creation.

Three days later those Saints, who were of the body of the anointed one, (The Christ) entered the city and showed themselves to Many.

The first males to see one of the risen body of Christ, was Cleophas, the husband of Mary, and his son Simon the half brother to Jesus, as they walked to Emmaus. When Simon saw the manner in which the stranger broke the bread, he realised that he was of the risen body of Christ, and they rushed back to Jerusalem where the disciples were locked in a dingy room, which included Simon Peter and Simon the patriot.

There, Cleophas the husband of Mary, cried out he has risen, he appeared to Simon, this of course was Simon the brother of Jesus, and the one who would succeed James the brother of the Lord to the episcopal throne of the church of the circumcision in Jerusalem, after James had been killed by the same Sadducee sect, that had his brother Jesus killed.

The only disciple not present that night was Thomas Didymus Jude another member of Mary's family, who was called the twin.

Undoubtedly they would have opened the door to Cleophas and his son Simon, and it was then that they saw who they believed to be the man Jesus standing there in that dimly lite room.

Another time when one from the risen body of Christ appeared to the disciples, was when seven of them were fishing and catching nothing, then someone of the shore told them to drop their net on the right side of the boat and they caught so many fish, they could not pull the net in. Then the man who had a fire and cooked fish and bread, invited them to eat with him, and even though those disciples had walked and talked with Jesus for some three years, not one of them dared to ask him, "Who are you?" yet they understood it was the Lord.

 

[Clear]

If you're using your second statement as support for your first statement....that's apples and oranges. The "breath of life" (spirit), in Genesis 2:7, is the same as that in Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 & Psalms 146:3-4...it's the life-force in animate creatures.

But the "world of spirits" in the Judaic literature you refer to, are angelic creatures.

1) REGARDING THE EARLY JUDEO-CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE OF MANKIND HAVING A SPIRIT SEPARATE FROM THE BODY

Clear said ; “ The ancient Jews and Christians BOTH believed in an afterlife and existence of a cognisant spirit after death. The early Judeo-Christian literature is full of references to and descriptions of the world of spirits.
HockeyCowboy said : If you're using your second statement as support for your first statement....that's apples and oranges.

You are confused. The fact that ancient Jewish and ancient Christian literature describe their belief that mankind has a spirit placed in the body is their own evidence written by them in their own words in support of their early doctrines and their interpretation of their scriptures in support of their belief that a cognizant, intelligent spirit is place in each of us.


2) THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS MOVEMENT IS NOT THE SAME AS THE EARLY CHRISTIAN RELIGION

HockeyCowboy said : The "breath of life" (spirit), in Genesis 2:7, is the same as that in Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 & Psalms 146:3-4...it's the life-force in animate creatures.

This is simply a statement of your modern doctrine IN CONTRAST TO the early Judeo-Christian interpretation of their ancient texts.

You MUST remember that early Judeo-Christianity is NOT the same religion as the Jehovahs Witness movement. Your beliefs are different than that of early Christianity. Your Texts and the interpretation of the texts are different than that of early Judeo-Christianity. In early Judeo-Christianity, God placed a cognizant, intelligent spirit into the lifeless body he created for Adam and this spirit was the source of intelligence, emotions, and cognition in their religion.


3) THE SPIRIT PLACED IN MANKIND IS NOT THE SAME SUBJECT AS ANGELS
HockeyCowboy said : But the "world of spirits" in the Judaic literature you refer to, are angelic creatures.

You are confused here as well. Angels are a different subject than the early Jewish literature describing the cognizant spirit within mankind that is separate from the body. Angels are irrelevant to whether mankind has a spirit or not.



EXAMPLES OF EARLY JEWISH AND ANCIENT CHRISTIAN LITERATURE AND THEIR WITNESS REGARDING JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BELIEF IN A COGNIZANT, INTELLIGENT SPIRIT IN MAN THAT IS SEPARATE FROM THE BODY


Wisdom of Solomon ''As a child I was born to excellence, and a noble soul fell to my lot; or rather, I myself was noble, and I entered into an unblemished body. (Wis of Solomon 8:20-21)''

My original point to Deeje regarded Deejes inaccurate use of a faulty translation as support for Deejes religious theory.

Also, readers must KEEP IN MIND, the ancient Judeo-Christians did not interpret the early texts as the Jehovahs Witness religion does. Let me offer examples from Berakoth and Shabbath from the Jewish Talmud which regards Jewish doctrine as to what what the deceased spirits of mankind know. None of these arguments present "non-cognition", but all assume and these teachings presume a living spirit of the dead person continues to exist. The controversy concerns what the dead know things about and how much they know about certain things.

For example, one story regards R. Hiyya and R. Jonathan who were walking in a cemetery, and the blue fringe of R. Jonathan was trailing on the ground.

R. Hiyya tells Johathan to lift up his fringe “so that they [the dead] should not say: Tomorrow they are coming to join us and now they are insulting us! “ (This is because it is considered a mocking of the dead to remind them of things they can no longer do).

Jonathan asked how much the dead actually know. “Do they know so much? Is it not written, But the dead know not anything?”

R Hiyya replied “If you have read once, you have not repeated; if you have repeated, you have not gone over a third time; if you have gone over a third time, you have not had it explained to you. For the living know that they shall die: these are the righteous who in their death are called living as it says... After death, they are still “called living”...

Again, the discussion is not whether the dead are cognizant, but the discussions concern how much and what type of knowledge of this life the dead are allowed to know.


Another Talmudic story and discussion relates to R Hiyya after he died. His sons were going through some challenges and one said to the other “Does our father know of our trouble?”. The underlying assumption is that the father still is alive in some way and that his father knows some things, but the question relates to whether he knows about THEIR difficulties. What of the living are they allowed to know?

The brother replied : “How should he know,… seeing that it is written, His sons come to honour and he knoweth it not? R Isaac explains that “…they know their own pain, they do not know the pain of others.”

The other, thinking that the dead can know something of the pain of others tells the story of “a certain pious man gave a denar to a poor man on the eve of New Year in a year of drought, and his wife scolded him, and he went and passed the night in the cemetery, and he heard two spirits conversing with one another. Said one to her companion: My dear, come and let us wander about the world and let us hear from behind the curtain what suffering is coming on the world."


The story continues relating that one spirit knew about the weather and certain aspects of the future which the man was advantaged by hearing. At some point in listening the man hears one spirit tell another, “My dear, leave me alone; our conversation has already been heard among the living.”(The farmer had related what the spirits were saying to others...)

The second brother then uses this story to say “ This would prove that they know?” but then ventures that “Perhaps some other man after his decease went and told them.”

The Talmud tells us that some of the dead know about others who are to die soon.

The Talmud relates multiple stories of the dead who communicate with the living.

After relating one such story the Talmud confirm the doctrine by answering the question : “Whence do we know that the dead converse with one another? Because it says: And the Lord said unto him: This is the land which I swore unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying. What is the meaning of 'saying'? The Holy One, blessed be He, said to Moses: Say to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: The oath which I swore to you I have already carried out for your descendants.”

This relates that the Lord told Moses to tell Abraham, Isaac and Jacob after he dies and enters this world of spirit, that he fulfilled his oath to their descendants. Logically these progenitors did not have access to such knowledge unless another spirit who had died, told them of it.

Thus the texts says : “Now if you maintain that the dead do not know, what would be the use of his telling them? — You infer then that they do know. In that case, why should he need to tell them? — So that they might be grateful to Moses.” (Berakoth)

During mourning for the dead, the Talmud tells us that “Rab Judah assembled ten men every day and they sat in his place. After seven days he [the dead man] appeared to him in a dream and said to him, 'Thy mind be at rest, for thou hast set my mind at rest.' R. Abbahu said: The dead man knows all that is said in his presence until the top-stone closes [the grave].

The ensuing discussion regards how LONG the dead are able to know what is happening among the living, but the point of agreement is that the dead spirits are cognizant and communicative. The discussion says that “He who says, until the top-stone closes [the grave]. — because it is written, and the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God. Our Rabbis taught: 'And the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return unto God who gave it': Render it back to him as He gave it to thee, [viz.,] in purity, so do thou [return it] in purity.”


The text compares body and spirit as follows : “This may be compared to a mortal king who distributed royal apparel to his servants. The wise among them folded it up and laid it away in a chest, whereas the fools among them went and did their work in them. After a time the king demanded his garments: the wise among them returned them to him immaculate, [but] the fools among them returned them soiled. The king was pleased with the wise but angry with the fools. Of the wise he said, 'Let my robes be placed in my treasury and they can go home in peace'; while of the fools he said, 'Let my robes be given to the fuller, and let them be confined in prison.' Thus too, with the Holy One, blessed be He: concerning the bodies of the righteous He says, He entereth into peace, they rest in their beds; while concerning their souls [spirits] He says, yet the soul of my Lord shall be bound up in the bundle of life with the Lord thy God.

The Early Christian usage of Ecclesiates 12:7 was used in this same way by the Apostle Peter as he explained to Clement that "This world was made so that the number of spirits predestined to come here when their number was full could receive their bodies and again be conducted back to the light." (Recognitions)

This is the same principle in Greek Apo Ezra, “Therefore, fear not death. For that which is from me, that is the spirit, departs for heaven. That which is from the earth, that is the body, departs for the earth from which it was taken.” (6:26 & 7:1-4)

The point in repeating this principle from multiple sources is to show that it was an orthodox principle among much of the early Judeo-Christian literature.


POST TWO OF TWO FOLLOWS

 

[Clear]

POST TWO OF TWO

Such principles in the Haggadic text (which is related to the talmudic history) is mirrored in several other texts. For example, the Zohar confirms the doctrine that a spirit is placed in each of us and multiple versions of this same principle exists in the various Judeo-Christian literature. For example, in Jewish Zohar, one version relates : “At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the spirits which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, and each spirit was formed into the exact outline of the body she was destined to tenant. Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this and this place, into this and this body.”

The context of the surrounding text makes very clear that the text is not referring to angels, but to the spirits of mankind.
In the context of the spirit of man both separate from his body and existing long before other spirits, Jewish Haggadah relates that “Instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation...With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.” The Haggadah (The Soul of Man)


This it the very same teaching the Apostle Peter taught the Christian convert Clement. The Apostle Peter tells the young christian convert Clement about the pre-earth council and man’s place within this plan and that man's spirit is older than all the others : "Last of all He made man whose real nature, however, is older and for whose sake all this was created." (Recognitions)


The great scribe Enoch is commanded by the angel to : “... write all the spirits of men, whatever of them are not yet born, and their places, prepared for eternity. 5 For all spirits are prepared for eternity, before the composition of the earth.” (2nd Enoch 23:4-5) In his vision the angel bids Enoch, “Come and I will show you the spirits of the righteous who have already been created and have returned, and the spirits of the righteous who have not yet been created.”
In such discussions, it is clear that he is speaking of "the spirits of men" (not angels)

The Christian descensus literature also, relates to the cognizant spirits of mankind existing after death in the world of spirits. For example,


In Matt 27:52-53 the biblical text relates that after Jesus’ resurrection “…the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which had slept were raised and came out of the tombs after he arose and went into the holy city and appeared to many. “

The early literature describes what happened in greater detail and relate some of the discussions between individuals in Jerusalem and those who arose from the dead.

In Gos Nicodemus, this Christian text contains a witness of this event from early Christian tradition : “And we saw two witnesses, whose bodies Jesus raised from the dead, who told us of many strange things which Jesus did among the dead, of which we have a written account in our hands.”

The Christian movements leaders are discussing the wonder of the resurrection of Jesus and they are told of two of these dead saints which matt 27:52-53 spoke of and went to talk with these resurrected individuals. In this written witness, The dead described the world of cognizant, communicative spirits and what they experienced there.

They related conversations of other dead spirits who were in this world of spirits including John the Baptist who had been beheaded, Isaiah, Adam and his son Seth, etc. The point is that the early Jews and Christians believed that there was an intelligent, cognizant spirit which was placed into the body of Adam, and into each of the rest of us and, upon death, they separate. The body ultimately returns to dust or the earth, from which is originated and the spirit inside man ultimately returns to God, who gave it to man. (Ecclesiates 12:7).


Many more examples could be given further demonstrating the ancient Christian literature agrees with the Jewish Literature on this point as multiple, specific witnesses to the early Judeo-Christian belief on this point. The Jehovahs Witness doctrine moved away from this specific doctrine and created and adopted their own doctrines and their own interpretations of scriptures. Moving AWAY from a specific early, authentic Judeo-Christian doctrine is the very definition of apostasy. Thus, Jehovahs Witness doctrine is part of an apo-stasy away from early Christian doctrine on this specific point.

Clear
τωφυδρνεω

 

[Deeje]

You can twist and distort the scriptures all that you want in you attempt to support your false belief that the minds of the those who lead wicked lives find peace and rest in death as they await the Great judgement. But you are wrong.

The minds of the wicked have perished with them....remember that God "destroys" both body and soul in gehenna, which is the destination of the wicked.....there is no one alive in that place.

You seem to have forgotten about the Saints whose graves were opened when the spirit of the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, (THE SON OF MAN) the anointed one of God who cannot die, which spirit had filled the man Jesus on the day of his baptism, abandoned his chosen heir and successor on the cross, and ceased to be an individual entity, by releasing all the spirits of the righteous that had been gathered to him (Enoch) in his evolution and ascension to the throne of the most High in the creation.

I have no idea what you just said.....

Three days later those Saints, who were of the body of the anointed one, (The Christ) entered the city and showed themselves to Many.

The "first resurrection" does not take place until Christ's return, so the scriptures themselves are disagreeing with you. When Christ comes back to take his "bride" home, "those dead in Christ will rise first".....that is what Paul states.....do you want to argue with him? (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) There was no resurrection of the holy ones in the first century, or it makes Paul's word a lie. No one went to heaven before Jesus, and he remained on the earth for 40 days after his resurrection. Only then did he ascend to the Father.

Another time when one from the risen body of Christ appeared to the disciples, was when seven of them were fishing and catching nothing, then someone of the shore told them to drop their net on the right side of the boat and they caught so many fish, they could not pull the net in. Then the man who had a fire and cooked fish and bread, invited them to eat with him, and even though those disciples had walked and talked with Jesus for some three years, not one of them dared to ask him, "Who are you?" yet they understood it was the Lord.

Yes...Jesus materialized and cooked them breakfast....no doubt something he had done for them many times....
John 21:9-14....
"9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.


10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” 11 So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead." (NIV)

Jesus was not recognizable as the master they had spent three and a half years with because he was not in the same body....but they knew it was him by his manner. This was the third time that he "appeared" to them.

 

[The Anointed]

The minds of the wicked have perished with them....remember that God "destroys" both body and soul in gehenna, which is the destination of the wicked.....there is no one alive in that place.



I have no idea what you just said.....



The "first resurrection" does not take place until Christ's return, so the scriptures themselves are disagreeing with you. When Christ comes back to take his "bride" home, "those dead in Christ will rise first".....that is what Paul states.....do you want to argue with him? (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) There was no resurrection of the holy ones in the first century, or it makes Paul's word a lie. No one went to heaven before Jesus, and he remained on the earth for 40 days after his resurrection. Only then did he ascend to the Father.



Yes...Jesus materialized and cooked them breakfast....no doubt something he had done for them many times....
John 21:9-14....
"9 When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.


10 Jesus said to them, “Bring some of the fish you have just caught.” 11 So Simon Peter climbed back into the boat and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12 Jesus said to them, “Come and have breakfast.” None of the disciples dared ask him, “Who are you?” They knew it was the Lord. 13 Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead." (NIV)

Jesus was not recognizable as the master they had spent three and a half years with because he was not in the same body....but they knew it was him by his manner. This was the third time that he "appeared" to them.

Please reveal to who the saints that came out of their graves three days after Jesus was crucified showed themselves when they entered the city, and where those saints are today?

Enoch was in the valley of man, the spiritual dimension that coexists within our three dimensional world,(For the kingdom of God is within you) for three days, or three periods of one thousand years before being reborn on earth as the man Jesus, who proved to the world that he who believes in the one who sent him to speak in 'HIS NAME' even though he were to die, yet would he live again.

And Elijah, who like Enoch was carried bodily to the throne of the most high and translated to an angelic being, has also now been within the inner dimension for almost three days, he will appear immediately before the Great tribulation and like Enoch who chose Jesus as the host body in which he would duplicate himself the Host body chosen by Elijah will be quickened by the presence of the spiritual Elijah, and it will never die.

Elijah will choose the required number of Jews and gentiles who are to take the thrones that have been prepared for them to rule for the thousand year Sabbath, after which, at the sound of the last trumpet, before heavenly fire incinerates all physical life forms on earth, they will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of Light.

From the book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11; "And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of Light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honor as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shinning light those who have loved my Holy Name, and I will seat each one on the throne of his honor. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.

 

[Deeje]

Please reveal to who the saints that came out of their graves three days after Jesus was crucified showed themselves when they entered the city, and where those saints are today?

The bodies of the "saints" were thrown out of their graves by an earthquake. None of those were resurrected, they were still dead bodies. It was the people who saw them that reported what happened in the graveyard to the people in the city.

No one went to heaven before Jesus and no "saint" was to be resurrected before his return according to Paul as I have mentioned previously.

Enoch was in the valley of man, the spiritual dimension that coexists within our three dimensional world,(For the kingdom of God is within you) for three days, or three periods of one thousand years before being reborn on earth as the man Jesus, who proved to the world that he who believes in the one who sent him to speak in 'HIS NAME' even though he were to die, yet would he live again.

"The Kingdom of God is within you" is one of the most mistranslated scriptures in the Bible. Just as "suffer the little children to come unto me" was mistranslated for centuries until they realized that "suffer" was an archaic English word that meant "let" the little children come to Jesus....there was no "suffering" involved.

"Within you" in this case means "in the midst of you" meaning that the King of that Kingdom was standing right in among the ones he was adressing and they failed to recognize him. He was speaking to the wicked Pharisees whose heart he said was "far removed from God" so the Kingdom was certainly not "within" those men. (Matthew 15:7-9)

As for the rest of that statement it is not scriptural at all. The Bible does not teach reincarnation.
All those pre-Christian servants of God must sleep in death until Christ resurrects them. (Hebrews 11:13)

And Elijah, who like Enoch was carried bodily to the throne of the most high and translated to an angelic being, has also now been within the inner dimension for almost three days, he will appear immediately before the Great tribulation and like Enoch who chose Jesus as the host body in which he would duplicate himself the Host body chosen by Elijah will be quickened by the presence of the spiritual Elijah, and it will never die.

This too is not scriptural.

Elijah will choose the required number of Jews and gentiles who are to take the thrones that have been prepared for them to rule for the thousand year Sabbath, after which, at the sound of the last trumpet, before heavenly fire incinerates all physical life forms on earth, they will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye from bodies of corruptible matter, into glorious bodies of Light.

From the book of Enoch the prophet 108: 11; "And now I will summon the spirits of the good who belong to the generation of Light, and I will transform those who were born in darkness, who in the flesh were not recompensed with such honor as their faithfulness deserved. And I will bring forth in shinning light those who have loved my Holy Name, and I will seat each one on the throne of his honor. And they shall be resplendent for times without number.

Using non canonical books will not lead you to the truth, but away from it...that is why they are not accepted as part of God's inspired word. It is clear that the apocryphal works do not harmonize with the rest of scripture.

 

[Clear]

REGARDING MATTHEW 27:52-53 AND Jehovahs Witness method of interpretation and creation of doctrine

Matthew 27:52, says that, after the resurrection of Christ : “… the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And, coming out of the tombs after his rising (Jesus), went into the holy city (Jerusalem), and appeared to many."

(gk Και τα Μενμεα ανεωχθησαν και πολλα κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθη και εχελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις)

Deeje interpreted this to mean : “The bodies of the "saints" were thrown out of their graves by an earthquake. None of those were resurrected, they were still dead bodies. It was the people who saw them that reported what happened in the graveyard to the people in the city." (post #192)


Hi Deeje,

The earliest Christians tell us in their early literature that they believed this text meant exactly what it says. That is, in their literature, they tell us that the bodies of many of the saints actually “arose” in the same manner that Jesus “arose” and they “went into” Jerusalem (the Holy City) and appeared to many. (They were individuals who were resurrected with Christs resurrection...).

The early literature contains stories of some of these resurrected individuals who spoke with people in Jerusalem. The early Christians and their movement, did not need to add, nor subtract information or words or concepts to the text that are not found in it.

Your “Body Throwing Theory” is yet another interesting difference between Jehovahs Witness religion and early Christian religion.

Can you provide details specifically regarding your method of interpretation of Mathew 27:52-53 as it relates to your “Dead Body Throwing Theory” where dead bodies were "thrown out of thir graves and “went” into Jerusalem and “appeared to many”? Why not allow the original interpretation a priority over your "Dead Body Throwing Theory" interpretation?


Clear
τωσετωσεω

 

[The Anointed]

REGARDING MATTHEW 27:52-53 AND Jehovahs Witness method of interpretation and creation of doctrine

Matthew 27:52, says that, after the resurrection of Christ : “… the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And, coming out of the tombs after his rising (Jesus), went into the holy city (Jerusalem), and appeared to many."

(gk Και τα Μενμεα ανεωχθησαν και πολλα κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθη και εχελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις)

Deeje interpreted this to mean : “The bodies of the "saints" were thrown out of their graves by an earthquake. None of those were resurrected, they were still dead bodies. It was the people who saw them that reported what happened in the graveyard to the people in the city." (post #192)


Hi Deeje,

The earliest Christians tell us in their early literature that they believed this text meant exactly what it says. That is, in their literature, they tell us that the bodies of many of the saints actually “arose” in the same manner that Jesus “arose” and they “went into” Jerusalem (the Holy City) and appeared to many. (They were individuals who were resurrected with Christs resurrection...).

The early literature contains stories of some of these resurrected individuals who spoke with people in Jerusalem. The early Christians and their movement, did not need to add, nor subtract information or words or concepts to the text that are not found in it.

Your “Body Throwing Theory” is yet another interesting difference between Jehovahs Witness religion and early Christian religion.

Can you provide details specifically regarding your method of interpretation of Mathew 27:52-53 as it relates to your “Dead Body Throwing Theory” where dead bodies were "thrown out of thir graves and “went” into Jerusalem and “appeared to many”? Why not allow the original interpretation a priority over your "Dead Body Throwing Theory" interpretation?


Clear
τωσετωσεω

Tell Deeje to read RSV, Matthew 27: 52-53; The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection 'THEY' came out of the 'TOMBS' (Plural) and entered the holy city and appeared to many.

KJV 53; and the 'GRAVES' (Plural) were opened.

Or perhaps the JW, New world Translation, 53; (And persons coming out from the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy City) and 'THEY' became visible to many people.

And BTW, it was not an earthquake, but an air blast caused by the incoming heavenly body that remained between the sun and Jerusalem for three hours casting its shadow over the Holy city, much the same as the air blast over Russia flattening the forests for miles around, Or the air Blast, that our scientists now believe destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorra

 

[Clear]

The Annointed said : “Tell Deeje to read RSV, Matthew 27: 52-53; The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection 'THEY' came out of the 'TOMBS' (Plural) and entered the holy city and appeared to many. KJV 53; and the 'GRAVES' (Plural) were opened.
Or perhaps the JW, New world Translation, 53; (And persons coming out from the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy City) and 'THEY' became visible to many people.” (post #194)

Hi @The Anointed

At first, I thought you were kidding or mistaken regarding your quote of the New World Version of verse 53. (which I both bolded and underlined in your quote above)

When I actually looked at the NW Text, I realized you were actually quoting the NWT text which reads : “(and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people”


THE NEW WORLD "TRANSLATION" OF MATTHEW 27:53 IS NOT A TRANSLATION OF ANY GREEK SOURCE TEXT

This verse in the NWT is not at all an authentic translation of ANY version of the Greek New Testament. Instead, it seems to be a commentary by Franz or whoever created this paraphrase of the bible, presumably to support their theory of what was happening. I don’t think I’ve seen ever seen an actual “bible”, depart from the Greek so blatantly.

The authentic bible version says “… the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And, coming out of the tombs after his rising (Jesus), went into the holy city (Jerusalem), and appeared to many."

(gk Και τα Μενμεα ανεωχθησαν και πολλα κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθη και εχελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις)


1) GN-4 reveals there are NO variants of import to this specific verse in any NA-28 listing.

2) There is no authentic source greek text which either introduces or refers to other “persons” present besides the bodies of the saints that are arising.

3) There is no reflexive form of “appeared” (ενεφανισθησαν) in any Greek source text.

4) I am guessing that Franz put this into his text to try and make the text agree with his theology, rather than forming his theology from the actual text. "Biblical based" religion should allow theology to conform to the text rather than force the text conform to the theology.

5) This verse is a sham translation and not “biblical” nor authentic at all. Thus, forum readers can comfortably and with clear consciences, disregard this “translation” of Matt 27:53 as inauthentic from the New World “bible”.

I don’t remember seeing such a departure from authentic text before other than commentaries.


Is there ANY KOINE GREEK READER on the forum that would like to claim this verse is an authentic "translation" of the actual greek source text?


Clear
τωσεσεφυω

 

[The Anointed]

The Annointed said : “Tell Deeje to read RSV, Matthew 27: 52-53; The tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53 After his resurrection 'THEY' came out of the 'TOMBS' (Plural) and entered the holy city and appeared to many. KJV 53; and the 'GRAVES' (Plural) were opened.
Or perhaps the JW, New world Translation, 53; (And persons coming out from the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered into the holy City) and 'THEY' became visible to many people.” (post #194)

Hi @The Anointed

At first, I thought you were kidding or mistaken regarding your quote of the New World Version of verse 53. (which I both bolded and underlined in your quote above)

When I actually looked at the NW Text, I realized you were actually quoting the NWT text which reads : “(and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city) and they became visible to many people”


THE NEW WORLD "TRANSLATION" OF MATTHEW 27:53 IS NOT A TRANSLATION OF ANY GREEK SOURCE TEXT

This verse in the NWT is not at all an authentic translation of ANY version of the Greek New Testament. Instead, it seems to be a commentary by Franz or whoever created this paraphrase of the bible, presumably to support their theory of what was happening. I don’t think I’ve seen ever seen an actual “bible”, depart from the Greek so blatantly.

The authentic bible version says “… the tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept arose. And, coming out of the tombs after his rising (Jesus), went into the holy city (Jerusalem), and appeared to many."

(gk Και τα Μενμεα ανεωχθησαν και πολλα κεκοιμημενων αγιων ηγερθη και εχελθοντες εκ των μνημειων μετα την εγερσιν αυτου εισηλθον εις την αγιαν πολιν και ενεφανισθησαν πολλοις)


1) GN-4 reveals there are NO variants of import to this specific verse in any NA-28 listing.

2) There is no authentic source greek text which either introduces or refers to other “persons” present besides the bodies of the saints that are arising.

3) There is no reflexive form of “appeared” (ενεφανισθησαν) in any Greek source text.

4) I am guessing that Franz put this into his text to try and make the text agree with his theology, rather than forming his theology from the actual text. "Biblical based" religion should allow theology to confirm to the text rather than force the text confirm to the theology.

5) This verse is a sham translation and not “biblical” nor authentic at all. Thus, forum readers can comfortably and with clear consciences, disregard this “translation” as authentic from the New World “bible”.

I don’t remember seeing such a departure from authentic text before other than commentaries.


Is there ANY KOINE GREEK READER on the forum that would like to claim this verse is an authentic "translation" of the actual greek source text?


Clear
τωσεσεφυω

It would appear that Deeje, does not believe the JW bible, or at least chooses to reject those parts that do not support her erroneous beliefs.

I wonder where she believes those risen spirits are today. Those spirits of the dead to whom Jesus, while dead in the flesh but alive in spirit preached the Good News to also, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged, so that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives. See 1 Peter 4: 6.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I’m sorry, I missed this:

Are you saying that the Watch Tower's mistakes over the years can be seen in this light?

When you consider the reasons and surrounding facts, yes.

Worshippers of God have always expressed a zeal for Jehovah God’s promises to happen. At Acts of the Apostles 1:6-8, even the Apostles misunderstood how the Kingdom would “come”. They had wrong expectations, and were thinking of a physical Kingdom.

They never made money off preaching; their motives were genuine.

Wrong ideas were perpetrated at times — as can be seen from the events of Acts of the Apostles 15 — but after prayerful discussion, they arrived at a conclusion, and it was accepted. Those brothers adjusted their viewpoint.

Many times have JW’s done this.

Remember the Scripture that says “the light gets brighter & brighter”? That would mean that, in earlier days, it was darker spiritually speaking.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[Deeje]

It would appear that Deeje, does not believe the JW bible, or at least chooses to reject those parts that do not support her erroneous beliefs.

Perhaps we need to consult Strong's concordance on this......

The tombs G3419 were opened, G455 and many G4183 bodies G4983 of the G40 who had fallen G2837 asleep G2837 were raised; G1453

and coming G1831 out of the tombs G3419 after G3326 His resurrection G1454 they entered G1525 the holy G40 city G4172 and appeared G1718 to many. G4183
"
G1453 - egeirō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (NASB)

Checking on the verses where this word "egeirō" (raised) is used in other parts of the NT is interesting. Strongs confirms that it can also mean...

1. "to cause to rise from a seat or bed etc.
   
   
2. to raise up, produce, cause to appear
   1. to cause to appear, bring before the public"

To raise a body, (exposing it) from a grave would use this same word without it meaning that the bodies were alive. In verse 53 it does not identify who "they" are. Read it again.....

"The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many."(NASB)

"They" may well have been observers who came out from the tombs after the earthquake, and after observing those bodies, reported what they had seen to those in Jerusalem. The "resurrection" mentioned in that verse is Jesus' resurrection, not that of the "saints".

The rest of scripture fights with any other interpretation. Paul said that the "saints" were to "sleep" until Christ's return. Christ had only just died. And since there is no further mention of these "saints" which, if they had been resurrected, we would have read more about such a monumental event....but the scriptures are silent....The rest of the scriptures do not support that this was a resurrection of those saints.

I wonder where she believes those risen spirits are today. Those spirits of the dead to whom Jesus, while dead in the flesh but alive in spirit preached the Good News to also, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged, so that in their spiritual existence they might live as God lives. See 1 Peter 4: 6.

Oh dear...more scrambling of scripture.....
The "spirits" to whom Jesus preached after his resurrection, are those rebel angels who were "in prison" or under restraint in "Tartarus". Which is incorrectly translated as "hell". These were the angels who "forsook their proper place" in Noah's day. (Jude 6)

1 Peter 4:3-6 gives us the context.....
"3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries. 4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God." (NASB)

This has nothing to do with people who are literally "dead", but those who are spiritually "dead" to God. They also receive a witness in order that they can be judged as disobedient and in full knowledge of what they are doing. They too will give an account to God.

I'm sorry, but I cannot see how your interpretation of things holds water scripturally.

 

[Deeje]

Hi Deeje,

The earliest Christians tell us in their early literature that they believed this text meant exactly what it says. That is, in their literature, they tell us that the bodies of many of the saints actually “arose” in the same manner that Jesus “arose” and they “went into” Jerusalem (the Holy City) and appeared to many. (They were individuals who were resurrected with Christs resurrection...).

You know what @Clear? We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what.

We believe what Jesus and his apostles said about an apostasy that was to occur after the restraining influence of the apostles was removed. After the last apostle John passed away, that apostasy was no longer restrained, and took over the church. These are the "weeds" (darnel) of Jesus' parable. Nothing written after John's last letters can be accepted as 'gospel truth'.....sorry but your sources are not acceptable to us, though they may be acceptable to you. They maybe of some historical value....yes....but as a rival to scripture, or as a substitute for scripture......No Way.

I find so much of what was written after the first century to be a product of that apostasy as it actually fights with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the inspired scriptures.

 

[The Anointed]

You know what @Clear? We give very little credence to anything written that is outside of the accepted Bible canon regardless of who said what.

We believe what Jesus and his apostles said about an apostasy that was to occur after the restraining influence of the apostles was removed. After the last apostle John passed away, that apostasy was no longer restrained, and took over the church. These are the "weeds" (darnel) of Jesus' parable. Nothing written after John's last letters can be accepted as 'gospel truth'.....sorry but your sources are not acceptable to us, though they may be acceptable to you. They maybe of some historical value....yes....but as a rival to scripture, or as a substitute for scripture......No Way.

I find so much of what was written after the first century to be a product of that apostasy as it actually fights with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles in the inspired scriptures.

The New World Translation. The Watch Tower Bible: and tract society of Pennsylvania. Matthew 27: 52-53; "And the memorial tombs were opened and many bodies of the holy ones that had fallen asleep were raised up. And persons coming out from the memorial tombs after his being raised up, entered the holy city, and 'THEY' became visible to many people.

The memorial tombs (Plural) that 'THEY' who became visible to many people, were. not the family tomb of Joseph in which Jesus was buried.