COL 2:16 And The Sabbath - Are You Being Told The Truth?

3rdAngel said:

Everything is just how God made it to be. Indeed it is just as the scriptures teach. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Though today we have the written word of God.

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This doesn’t address my point. Please do so without all the extraneous BS.

We have several legit canons, most of which you wouldn’t call scripture, but which the several legit churches recognize as scripture. unless you allow that the “word” isn’t just “the Bible.”

3rdAngel said:

Sooo you went to seminary school and you do not know this?

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I’m asking for a tight definition from you as to what you mean. No seminary can read the minds of individuals.

3rdAngel said:

I see. Ok I guess you have your faith and I have mine. Although mine tells me no one has God's salvation if they do not believe and follow God's Word. Good luck with yours. Your going to need it if you believe the scriptures *JOHN 12:47-48

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I know what the faith is. Your concept seems skewed, if we’re using the apostles’ teaching as the yardstick.

sojourner said:

This doesn’t address my point. Please do so without all the extraneous BS.

We have several legit canons, most of which you wouldn’t call scripture, but which the several legit churches recognize as scripture. unless you allow that the “word” isn’t just “the Bible.”

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So which traditional Christian church(not something new but an organisation that has been around for awhile) disregards any of the 66 books? Catholic church agrees, Protestants agree, Greek Orthodox agree, I think even the Ethiopian church agrees.

Let's see because as far as I know even if they add other books on. They still at least agree on those 66. So we can agree on the reliability of those at least.

What do you say to that?

3rdAngel said:

Do you not think God, the creator of heaven and earth is not in control of his Word?

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The Word of Elohim isn't written text, although some text describes it.

And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that Elohim putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Numbers 22:38

sojourner said:

I know what the faith is. Your concept seems skewed, if we’re using the apostles’ teaching as the yardstick.

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My concept of how we get faith is not skewed it is biblical. I used the bibles definition of faith it is not mine and I quoted scripture to you. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God taken from Romans 10:17

sojourner said:

This doesn’t address my point. Please do so without all the extraneous BS. We have several legit canons, most of which you wouldn’t call scripture, but which the several legit churches recognize as scripture. unless you allow that the “word” isn’t just “the Bible.”

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Why does it need to address your point? You do not believe God is in control of his Word I do. There is nothing more to say. That is your belief. I do not believe what you teach and neither do I think it is biblical as all your trying to teach is to do away with the scriptures in order to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God and faith in the scriptures which I believe is essential to salvation. IMO your view is not biblical so nothing more needs to be said

sojourner said:

I’m asking for a tight definition from you as to what you mean. No seminary can read the minds of individuals.

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I was asking you if you are aware of the ROMAN CATHOLIC Churches persecution of Christians that did not believe or followed the heresies it taught? It wasn't a hard question. You do not have to answer it if you do not want to just say so.

Theo102 said:

The Word of Elohim isn't written text, although some text describes it.

And Balaam said unto Balak, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say any thing? the word that Elohim putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Numbers 22:38

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Hi Theo, not sure how any of the above answers the question asked of you. Do you not think God, the creator of heaven and earth is not in control of his Word?

74x12 said:

So which traditional Christian church(not something new but an organisation that has been around for awhile) disregards any of the 66 books? Catholic church agrees, Protestants agree, Greek Orthodox agree, I think even the Ethiopian church agrees.

Let's see because as far as I know even if they add other books on. They still at least agree on those 66. So we can agree on the reliability of those at least.

What do you say to that?

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I say that the poster said “all” scripture,” not just the scripture that is held in common. And certainly not just the ones that the writer of Timothy would have recognized (which would be none of the Greek texts). I’m showing that the poster is misrepresenting the passage he quoted.

3rdAngel said:

50 Million is in reference to pagan and papal Romes persecution of the christian martys.

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Good grief.. The whole Roman Empire was between 4-5 million people in the 2nd century AD.

sojourner said:

I say that the poster said “all” scripture,” not just the scripture that is held in common. And certainly not just the ones that the writer of Timothy would have recognized (which would be none of the Greek texts). I’m showing that the poster is misrepresenting the passage he quoted.

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Indeed, the bible says All scripture I believe it and I believe God put in there for a reason. It seems you do not. Now let me ask you a simple question. Do you not believe the NT scriptures are inspired by God because if you apply your reaonsing to Timothy you have to apply it to all the NT scriptures. Can you see where your argument is leading? Yet it is the very word of God that teaches if you do not believe God's Word you cannot have faith and if you have no faith it is impossible to please God and you have no salvation

3rdAngel said:

I was asking you if you are aware of the ROMAN CATHOLIC Churches persecution of Christians that did not believe or followed the heresies it taught? It wasn't a hard question. You do not have to answer it if you do not want to just say so.

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Asked and answered. By definition, a heretic cannot be a Christian. The Roman church persecuted heretics, not Christians, and certainly not Christian martyrs.

By definition, the Roman church taught no heresy, because, at that time, the church wasn’t “Roman.” It was the Church, and the Church was orthodox. You don’t get to change what is and is not orthodoxy, just because you disagree with it. If you disagree, that would make you the heretic, not the Church.

sooda said:

Good grief.. The whole Roman Empire was between 4-5 million people in the 2nd century AD.

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Good grief go back and read what was posted to you carefully

3rdAngel said:

Indeed, the bible says All scripture I believe it and I believe God put in there for a reason

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And I want to know what you mean by “all.” Do you mean “all the texts that the writer of Timothy knew to be scripture?” Because that list does not include the NT. Therefore, if that’s not what you meant, then you don’t get to misuse Timothy to say something it doesn’t say. What you believe isn’t the litmus test here.

3rdAngel said:

Do you not believe the NT scriptures are inspired by God

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It doesn’t matter what I believe. What matters is what the writer of Timothy meant.

sojourner said:

Asked and answered. By definition, a heretic cannot be a Christian. The Roman church persecuted heretics, not Christians, and certainly not Christian martyrs. By definition, the Roman church taught no heresy, because, at that time, the church wasn’t “Roman.” It was the Church, and the Church was orthodox. You don’t get to change what is and is not orthodoxy, just because you disagree with it. If you disagree, that would make you the heretic, not the Church.

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So in your view you believe it was ok for the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH to pusecute and kill any one that did not believe the same as them? This is an interesting mindset. Bare with me let's tease this through...

It is amazing how those that do not have God's WORD to supoport their traditions that break the commandments of God accuse those who have God's WORD of being a heretic and of things that are not true. Let's look at some parrallels here with your claims.

The religious teachers in the days of Jesus said that he had a devil and his followers were a cult this was also independently verifiable in the days of Jesus and the Apostles. Just ask the Jews who hung Jesus on the cross (John 7:20; John 8:48; 52; Matt 10:25 12:24; Acts 28:22).

This could be said of all those who followed Jesus throughout time even before Jesus the religious teachers of the day killed the prophets sent to them by God to share God's WORD (Luke 11:47; Matt 23:31)

Stephen was stoned to death it was independently verified that he was blaspheming because no one could argue with the scriptures that he was presenting (Acts 6:8-15).

Paul, Peter and most of the Apostles were also executed because it was independently verified by the religious teachers of the day that they could not respond to God's WORD they were sharing with them.

Not to mention all those of the reformation and the birth of Protestantism and the inquisition of the Roman Catholic Church which executed millions of God's people because it was independently verified by the Roman Catholic Church that they were all heretics and should be burned at the stake.

Now today you call heretic or cult because it is independently verified because you cannot respond to the scriptures that disagree with your Catholic traditions which has led many to break God's Commandments?

ONLY God's WORD is true and you do not have it to support your tradition that breaks the commandments of God. The WORD of God is sent to help you have a closer walk with God but you reject God's WORD in order to follow the traditions of the fathers.

Jesus and Paul spoke correctly quoting Isaiah;

Well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers, Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing you shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing you shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is stubborn, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Something to think about who do we BELIEVE and FOLLOW? The teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of God or the WORD of GOD. Jesus says those who follow man made traditions that break God's Commandments are not following him...

MATTHEW 15:2-9 [2], Why do your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. [3], But he answered and said to them, Why do you also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? [4], For God commanded, saying, Honor your father and mother: and, He that curses father or mother, let him die the death. [5], But you say, Whoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatever you might be profited by me; [6], And honor not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have you made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. [7], You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, [8], This people draws near to me with their mouth, and honors me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. [9], But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It is very clear according to Jesus if we follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the Commandments of GOD we are not following God.

In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).

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SIN is the breaking of God's Commandments (James 2:9-11; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)
Those who CONTINUE in UNREPENTANT SIN will NOT enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN.

Yep seems like there is nothing new under the sun, as they persecuted the prophets and God's people all through time so it wil be again according to the scriptures

3rdAngel said:

My concept of how we get faith is not skewed it is biblical

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Your concept is your concept. And it differs from the writers’ concepts.

3rdAngel said:

I used the bibles definition of faith it is not mine and I quoted scripture to you

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That passage doesn’t speak of the Faith. That’s your misapprehension.

sojourner said:

Asked and answered. By definition, a heretic cannot be a Christian. The Roman church persecuted heretics, not Christians, and certainly not Christian martyrs.

By definition, the Roman church taught no heresy, because, at that time, the church wasn’t “Roman.” It was the Church, and the Church was orthodox. You don’t get to change what is and is not orthodoxy, just because you disagree with it. If you disagree, that would make you the heretic, not the Church.

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Already answered in post 992 linked did you read it?

sojourner said:

Your concept is your concept. And it differs from the writers’ concepts. That passage doesn’t speak of the Faith. That’s your misapprehension.

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Nonsense I used the bibles definition or where faith comes from. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. By believeing and following God's Word is how we demonstrate faith

sojourner said:

And I want to know what you mean by “all.” Do you mean “all the texts that the writer of Timothy knew to be scripture?” Because that list does not include the NT. Therefore, if that’s not what you meant, then you don’t get to misuse Timothy to say something it doesn’t say. What you believe isn’t the litmus test here.
It doesn’t matter what I believe. What matters is what the writer of Timothy meant.

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Indeed, the bible says All scripture I believe it and I believe God put in there for a reason. It seems you do not. Now let me ask you a simple question. Do you not believe the NT scriptures are inspired by God because if you apply your reaonsing to Timothy you have to apply it to all the NT scriptures. Can you see where your argument is leading? Yet it is the very word of God that teaches if you do not believe God's Word you cannot have faith and if you have no faith it is impossible to please God and you have no salvation as we are only saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast.