Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

3rdAngel said: ↑ Your belief is that there is no God.

Your response...

Mestemia said:
Bold face lie

Sorry I was only going off the Oxford Dictionaries definition that athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. So do you believe that there is a God?

Mestemia said:
Since I do not believe that god does not exist, there is no onus on me to prove anything.

If you believe God exists then no proof is required for you.

Mestemia said:
except no faith is required to lack a belief.

Sure it does if you have no evidence for what you believe. If you have no evidence you have to have faith.

McBell · Jan 16, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Not really. Your only making ad hominem fallacy comments in order to avoid addressing the posts you are responding to which does not help a discussion.

Now you show you do not know what an ad hominem is...

Interesting that the more you post the more you reveal just how much you do not know.

3rdAngel said:
Only that you believe that there is no God

Bold face lie.
So how many times telling a bold face lie before you are officially a liar?

3rdAngel said:
I am not trying to do anything. If you believe there is no God then that is simply your belief.

Your inability to understand that I have no god belief is most comical.

3rdAngel said:
Sure it is. It seems though that you do not believe it. You are free to believe as you wish

As are you.
At least until you flat out lie about my beliefs.

McBell · Jan 16, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Sorry I was only going off the Oxford Dictionaries definition that athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. So do you believe that there is a God?

Actually, you are perverting the very definition you provided by not understanding the definition.
No, I do not believe a god exists.

3rdAngel said:
If you believe God exists then no proof is required for you.

Wrong again.
But at least you are consistent.

3rdAngel said:
Sure it does if you have no evidence for what you believe. If you have no evidence you have to have faith.

Nope.
No faith required because there is no belief.

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

3rdAngel said: ↑Sorry I was only going off the Oxford Dictionaries definition that athiesm is disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods. So do you believe that there is a God?

Your response here...

Mestemia said:
Actually, you are perverting the very definition you provided by not understanding the definition.
No, I do not believe a god exists.

Thank you this is all I need. I have only told you the truth as to what you believe. I have not perverted anything and you have contradicted yourself. Your own words state you do not believe a God exists yet you have no evidence for your belief which means your belief is based on faith. They are your words not mine. Everything I have posted therefore I believe is true. Although I know you will deny this and you are free to believe what you like. I will leave you with the last say as it seems you need it more than I do. I have some other things to do for now and may pop back in latter.

Nice to talk to you

74x12 · Jan 16, 2020

Israel Khan said:
So then there is no objective way to know whose interpretation of scripture is truth?

Well maybe there is a way. :shrug:

But the world wouldn't receive or believe it. So there is no way for the world to know. Only God can know and those God reveals it to. The rest of the world will be in confusion. Many questions. Many theories and arguments but not the knowledge of the truth.

Israel Khan said:
And if "You may know when you have the right interpretation because God gave it to you." how could you trust that that interpretation is from God?

Alright, you're pretty skeptical. But what if you started believing the Bible? Then you would have to admit it was a miracle for you to believe.
My point is that only God can convince anyone or show anyone the truth.

74x12 · Jan 16, 2020

Subduction Zone said:
This is nonsense because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy when people do not agree with you. You need to do better than this. If your God is real he needs to do better than that. You are in effect claiming that your God is evil.

No, and I don't think your paradigm allows for the existence of evil anyway. It's just an arbitrary accusation you can throw around when you find someone else's behavior disagrees with your personal sentiments which can even change on a whim. Because evolution only allows for a rudimentary sense of empathy to arise from cooperation as a survival mechanism within a species. Basically, the law of the jungle. Or similar to how prison gangs form as a means to protect themselves from other prisoners. Not I very good basis for a true moral system; but I digress.

Why is it so abhorrent for God to require people's hearts to change? If your heart is not right then it's not the Word of God's fault is it? The Word of God came first so it shouldn't and indeed cannot change.

McBell · Jan 16, 2020

74x12 said:
My point is that only God can convince anyone or show anyone the truth.

Then by your own account you are wasting your time with the above quoted post, right?

74x12 · Jan 16, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Now go back and read your last paragraph again. When big brother doesn't bother to defend little bro in the schoolyard, little brother starts to lose trust. That happens and it's normal. But when God doesn't answer prayers (as millions who've died with prayer on their lips might testify -- if only they hadn't died), believers try to find reasons to excuse God and go right on believing. I find that bewildering.

My analogy was supposed to be about salvation. Not about troubles and even death which will occur in this present world. That is less important to be honest and indeed this is why Jesus says

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. (Mark 8:35)

Evangelicalhumanist · Jan 16, 2020

74x12 said:
My analogy was supposed to be about salvation. Not about troubles and even death which will occur in this present world. That is less important to be honest and indeed this is why Jesus says

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. (Mark 8:35)

And is that really how you see it?

I think every human does their very best to preserve their life as long as they can -- and they do this rightly. Every law, every instinct that we have, says this is right. But that verse from Mark says that everyone who does so, is doing it in vain.

Tell me you'll just happily say "fire away" when somebody comes to shoot you.

Audie · Jan 16, 2020

Mestemia said:
Now you show you do not know what an ad hominem is...

Interesting that the more you post the more you reveal just how much you do not know.

Bold face lie.
So how many times telling a bold face lie before you are officially a liar?

Your inability to understand that I have no god belief is most comical.

As are you.
At least until you flat out lie about my beliefs.

He does the same for me, lie about me and
chant ad hom. Dont encourage it with
further responses

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

Audie said:
He does the same for me, lie about me and
chant ad hom. Dont encourage it with
further responses

Nonsense... I simply quoted you and what you said showing your comments were ad hom. You just did not like it so your trying to play the victim card when your not a victim. Sadly, it is you that is not being truthful here not me. It seems your not willing to have a discussion so you resort to attack the messenger instead because you cannot attack the message. You are free to believe as you wish. I am only enjoying our conversation which I believe only proves what I have shared with you is true

74x12 · Jan 16, 2020

Evangelicalhumanist said:
And is that really how you see it?

I think every human does their very best to preserve their life as long as they can -- and they do this rightly. Every law, every instinct that we have, says this is right. But that verse from Mark says that everyone who does so, is doing it in vain.

Tell me you'll just happily say "fire away" when somebody comes to shoot you.

That's taking it way to literally.

Remember that Jesus often taught in metaphor or in vague terms that had to be understood or explained. People often misunderstood Him for example in John 6:53-63 they thought he literally wanted them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. So, Jesus is not literally saying you should let yourself be killed without stopping it.

This is kind of hard to explain but I'll try. The point of the verse is about people who do bad things to preserve their life. Most obviously as a Christian denying Jesus just to stay alive.

But just for anyone it still holds true. You steal, kill etc. and justify it by saying "I had to stay alive somehow." You know it's wrong but do it (so you think anyway) to stay alive. You're in effect saving your present life in exchange for going against your conscience. It's not good. So you should not put things in this world above your conscience. Like houses, jobs etc and ultimately even your life. These are less important. Many people do and they can easily repent. It's not unforgivable.

Evangelicalhumanist · Jan 16, 2020

74x12 said:
That's taking it way to literally. Remember that Jesus often taught in metaphor or in vague terms that had to be understood or explained. People often misunderstood Him for example in John 6:53-63 they thought he literally wanted them to eat his flesh and drink his blood. So, Jesus is not literally saying you should let yourself be killed without stopping it.

This is kind of hard to explain but I'll try. The point of the verse is about people who do bad things to preserve their life. Most obviously as a Christian denying Jesus just to stay alive.

But just for anyone it still holds true. You steal, kill etc. and justify it by saying "I had to stay alive somehow." You know it's wrong but do it (so you think anyway) to stay alive. You're in effect saving your present life in exchange for going against your conscience. It's not good. So you should not put things in this world above your conscience. Like houses, jobs etc and ultimately even your life. These are less important. Many people do and they can easily repent. It's not unforgivable.

And I have a completely different attitude about that. I've explained it before, in an example that I concocted after hurricane Katrina devastated New Orleans. What if a man, trapped in the flooded area with all the stores closed, is in desperate need of insulin for his diabetic daughter. I contend that in this situation, he is justified in breaking into a drug store and taking what he needs. Yes, it is technically theft, technically B&E, but I think it justified. And I even think that the courts might agree.

Whether God does or not is, of course, up to God. (I could at least like a God who thought the same, if there has to be a God.)

McBell · Jan 16, 2020

Audie said:
He does the same for me, lie about me and
chant ad hom. Dont encourage it with further responses

I wonder if he knows his "optimistic" ratings are against forum rules?

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

Mestemia said:
I wonder if he knows his "optimistic" ratings are against forum rules?

Soo in your view, it is against forum rules to rate a post as optimistic when you believe what someone has written is optimistic? Where is that in the forum rules and why have a rating system if you cannot use it? Sorry I am not following you here.

McBell · Jan 16, 2020

3rdAngel said:
Soo it is against forum rules to rate a post as optimistic when you believe what someone has written is optimistic? Where is that in the forum rules and why have a rating system if you cannot use it?

According to the message I got it is a violation of rule number 9.

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

Mestemia said:
According to the message I got it is a violation of rule number 9.

So not sure if I got this from the right place or not...

Rule 9. Subverting/Undermining the Forum Mission
The mission of Religious Forums is to provide a civil, informative, respectful, and welcoming environment where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare, and debate. Content members create while debating and discussing must be done in the spirit of productivity. Bashing other forums, creating unproductive content or responses to others, attempting to use this site as a platform for campaigning for or against or furthering a personal agenda, and attempting to undermine the forum mission may result in moderation.

I am not sure how Rule 9 supports what your saying in regards to post ratings to be honest. I only rate a post as to what I believe. I also do not rate every post that I reply to.

Deeje · Jan 16, 2020

adrian009 said:
Here is a timeline of failed predictions:

They are all pertaining to one prophesy. It was just the timing. Jesus told us to “keep on the watch”, which is why we have the Watchtower as our symbol. Do you know what the purpose of the watchtower was in Bible times? It was to alert the residents of the city if the watchman saw something approaching. It could have been friend or foe, but the alert was sounded and an air of preparedness was initiated. If it proved to be a false alarm, then everyone went back to business as usual. This is the way it is with us. We are warned not to go to sleep spiritually speaking....so, as we were told to “keep on the watch”...that is what we have done. If you remember Jesus’ parable of the 10 Virgins, you will understand why we remain vigilant. (Matthew 25:1-13)
Again, like the days of Noah.....after many decades of construction and warning.....the flood came. Noah didn’t close the door or bring the flood. No one listened....do you know why?

adrian009 said:
Its sobering reading. So when I hear what a dark place the world is and the end will come soon, I am sceptical. You should be too. Doomsday prophecy has been going on for a long time. It appeals to people with a certain psychology. The world as we know it is about the end. We are the special ones, the last hope and refugee for humanity. Everyone else is under the influence of Satan. That narrative preys on people’s fears and anxieties about the future. But its what gives your life meaning and hope.

You can believe that if you like.....but the Bible is my guide. It’s been around a very long time and the end time prophesies go back to Daniel who lived 500 years before Jesus was born. God does not operate in earth time. He gives plenty of time for warning, but Daniel was told to seal up his book because no one would understand it until “the time of the end” (Daniel 12:4; 9-10)....and here we are.

adrian009 said:
I grew up Christian too. I like Christians as with peoples of all faiths. Baha’is are encouraged to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship, wholly for the sake of God, not so we can convert them.

If you grew up in Christendom, then like me, you were not educated in Christianity....you were exposed to the poisonous “weeds” of Jesus’ parable. He said that these were fake Christians sown by the devil.....don’t you believe him? (Matthew 13:36-43)
When I studied the Bible instead of just being fed church doctrine, I saw how far they had strayed from Jesus’ teachings. This is why ‘all roads do not lead to Rome’. Only “few” are on the road to life. (Matthew 7:13-14) This is a very inconvenient truth that Baha’i’s ignore, along with many other teachings of Jesus Christ. I would have more respect if you just disavowed all connection to the teachings of Jesus Christ, instead of pretending that they matter.

adrian009 said:
Seriously. So let’s get this straight. You don’t believe in the core tenants of Christianity!?

1/ Was Jesus the Son of God?
2/ How about the Divinity of Jesus?
3/ Was Jesus born to the Virgin Mary?
4/ Did Jesus appoint Peter as His successor?
5/ Do you believe in the Divine origins of Christianity?
6/ How about the Divine inspiration of the New Testament?

The core tenants of Christianity are not the trinity, Jesus is NOT "God the Son".....the immaculate conception....Mary was as sinful as any other offspring of Adam.....the idea that Peter was the first Pope as Jesus' successor is simply not true. Peter was given responsibilities but he was not appointed as 'head of the church'. He held no rank over the other apostles. Read your prophets words...these are the things he said were "Christian". None of them are. Were you raised Catholic?

adrian009 said:
It appears to me the Baha’i presence on this forum is not too dissimilar to the JWs. We do not shun and cast others out. We tolerate diversity and differences. The Teachings of our faith are very clear and there are no schism amongst the Baha’is as there are in Christianity.

Your religion might tolerate a lot of things....the question is...does God tolerate them? We don't tolerate what God doesn't. No immorality, no drunkenness, no dissension, no disturbance of the peace that we all enjoy as a global brotherhood. The first Christians did not tolerate any of that, so neither do we.. If you know the rules and you break them...if you have no intention to alter your course.....there's the door.

What is the point of trying to be all things to all people if you actually accomplish very little in trying to patch up a dying and irreparable system? That’s like trying to put a band aid on the Titanic.

God’s Kingdom will “come” as Jesus said.....but how? Daniel tells us how....

In Daniel 2:44 he speaks of the days of the present world rulers and says...
“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever”.

We are told that God’s Kingdom will "crush" all worldly kingdoms out of existence and replace them. So what you are trying to fix, God has already condemned. World rulership was handed over to Satan to prove his claims that humans are better off making their own decisions (Luke 4:5-8)....and we all know how that has turned out.

adrian009 said:
Baha’is don’t believe in Satan as you know but its one dark narrative when its phrased this way. Baha’is don’t become involved in partisan politics. We are free to vote in elections but not run for a political posts and avoid criticism of government. Instead we are exhorted to obey the laws of the land.

Jesus was tempted by satan three times as recorded in Luke 4. Was he talking to himself? The scriptures tell us that Jesus was "sinless" so he had no quality of evil in him for satan to use....all he had was his free will. Jesus proved that Adam had no excuse.

adrian009 said:
The Bible doesn’t but if you believe there was a world wide flood a few thousand years back around the time of Noah then that contradicts science.

You leave God out of the picture entirely...why? Why couldn't there be a worldwide deluge if God caused it and managed the results of it? Never say never where the Creator is concerned. He is the inventor of science you know. He can also manipulate his creation if he wants to. He made the shadows on a stairway go backwards once (2 Kings 20:8-11).....you think that was impossible for him?

Deeje · Jan 16, 2020

adrian009 said:
Jesus professed Himself to be a Prophet as did Muhammad, the Bab and Bahá’u’lláh. They all had the authority from God to make the claims they did.

Jesus is not even in the same ball park as those self appointed prophets. Jesus was the son of God...a divine mighty one who had the credentials necessary to identify him. From his birth to his death, he fulfilled hundreds of prophesies written about him....and he had the power of God's spirit to heal all who came to him....to expel demons and to teach the people like no other teacher ever had. He also gave his life as a redeemer of mankind, sold into slavery to sin and death, giving a perfect life for the perfect life that Adam lost for his children through his disobedience. Baha'i's seem to have no understanding of that.

adrian009 said:
There we go again with this dark view of humanity being selfish and greedy. Do some research and you will find people are living much longer than they used, there is less poverty and better levels of education and health throughout the world. Try dealing with actual facts rather than negative rhetoric about the human condition.

Ah statistics.....handy little things that give a very distorted view of reality. Statistics are not facts.....facts come from people's experiences not from someone crunching numbers in an office far removed from their reality. Sorry but the world is not a nice place and the people we talk to are getting very worried about the future if things continue on the downward spiral that they are observing. These are real people experiencing real life.They don't care to hear about your statistics.

One challenge for humanity where we really need to cooperate is global warming. Its within our grasp to do something and there will be less extremes of weather and less bushfires.

Is it within our grasp?...or is it like it always is....too little, too late. Lots of talk, denial, and no action. Humans will never fix the problems because humans ARE the problem. How many decades will it take to clean up the oceans of the plastic pollution? Or to heal the land from all the chemical poisons sprayed onto our food crops and leeching into our bodies, our land and our waterways? What becomes of the tons of hormones and synthetic drugs that people excrete through the sewerage works and out into the oceans on a daily basis? Humans treat this world as their personal rubbish tip....even space is not spared their junk. Time to wake up to the reality I feel....

adrian009 said:
No its not becoming darker by the day.

Nice rose colored lenses you are looking through.....its a special kind of blindness I think. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4)

adrian009 said:
I guess you’ve completely ignored everything I said about the positive changes in the world in my last post and how that is due to the contributions of millions, not just a few. It doesn’t matter whether they are Baha’is or not.

From where I’m standing your going to be waiting a very long time for Christ to come.

I guess the flood victims in Noah's day were pretty confident too......what is the lesson?

adrian009 said:
The world has changed dramatically over the last 150 years and will continue to do so.

Its changing all right...but not for the better.....spiritually, morally, politically...or in any other way. Toys and electronic gadgets have improved and entertainment now leaves nothing to the imagination, but from God's perspective are things getting better? By what stretch of whose imagination?

adrian009 said:
The Christian Church was exactly what Jesus intended as it was established under the guidance of His apostles.

But Jesus foretold that a falling away to "weed-like" false Christianity, would take place "while men were sleeping".....just as the Jews had fallen away to an apostate version of Judaism, based on man made traditions and not on God's word, so too would Christianity be hijacked by unscrupulous men, hungry for power. The fake wheat he referred to was a blight to Jewish farmers in Bible times. Bearded darnel looked for all the world like real wheat in its early growing stages. It wasn't until the harvest time that the two became clearly distinguishable. That is why Jesus said that 'both would grow together until the harvest' and then 'the reapers would gather the weeds and dispose of them'......its time for the harvest to begin.

The apostles too warned about this. Christendom does not resemble first century Christianity in any way.

adrian009 said:
Jesus didn’t teach abolition of slavery, democracy or the equality of men and women.

Why would he?

God's word did not condemn the kind of slavery that was practiced in Israel. A man who was in debt could sell himself or one of his children into the service of one to whom the debt was owing. His service paid off the debt unless a generous benefactor paid it for him. This was the legal basis for Jesus' sacrifice.
There were laws protecting slaves from abuse or ill treatment. It was more like employment. Who is not a slave of their boss?
The kind of slavery practiced by the nations was completely different. God's own people were victims of it in Egypt, which is why he rescued them.

The Bible does not promote any form of human government.....democracy in the world right now is failing, just as it was prophesied in Daniel. Democracy creates a situation where 'people power' undermines the strength of the government....and you end up with a weak government hamstrung by their own policies. Nothing much is accomplished. Its the iron and clay not mixing. (Read Daniel Ch 2)

JW's do not participate in any political activities or vote for any governments because to do so is to support what God is going to destroy. Jesus said that the devil rules this world, so who are you voting for? and do you then bear responsibility for what those people do with the power you gave them?

We are very law abiding citizens who try not to interfere with any of the workings of government. We pay our taxes and we don't fill up the jails because we aren't criminals. We are no drain on their systems and we help people to become fully self-sufficient, thereby getting them into paid employment and off welfare, where possible. The only time you will see us imprisoned is for obeying God's law before man's. We will not engage in any military service as it is a conscience issue with us. Jesus told us to 'love our enemies' so we could never harm them, even if they harmed us. And we will not cease preaching the Kingdom message that Jesus said would be done right up until "the end" even if our work is banned. (Matthew 24:14)

There was always equality of men and women right from creation, but their roles were clearly defined. There was a family head and a supportive co-navigator. Each one knew their place and did not try to compete with one another. Each role was vital to the running of a household and each knew their job and were encouraged to do it well, complimenting one another as the team they were meant to be. Like a car, it only has one driver. To give both control of the vehicle would be disastrous.

The more I hear your complaints, the more detached you seem to be from reality and from the teachings of Jesus Christ that are claimed by Baha'i....

They say that "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing"...nowhere is that truer than when it comes to understanding the Bible. That 'little knowledge' seems to color everything you believe about God and his Christ.

You are welcome to your faith....but I fail to see any merit in its teachings.

3rdAngel · Jan 16, 2020

Bob the Unbeliever said:
I'm tired of your TROLLING.

Bob nice to see you again. If someone has a different view to you it is not called trolling. It is having a different view

Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

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