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Saved By Grace Or Saved By Works?

e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
shmogie said:
Not at all. Salvation is by Grace, Gods unmerited favor, through faith.
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Through faith is not synonymous with through faith alone.

There is absolutely nothing a person can do to earn salvation, because no matter what we do it cannot make us meet the requirements God demands for acceptance.
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Agreed, but the Bible never speaks of the dangers of someone thinking they "earn" salvation. That's a modern day concern and catchphrase.

Only in Christ, whose life and death and resurrection is accounted to us, making us positionally justified and perfect, can the standard be met. It has nothing to do with what you do, everything to do with what you believe.
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The Bible never says it has nothing to do with what you do. It only says not of works. "Doing" things is not scripturally excluded from getting saved.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
metis said:
Yep, and that's what the Gospel tells us that we must do, which is especially to be found in Jesus' Sermon On the Mount (Matthew ch. 12-14) and his Parable of the Sheep & Goats (Matthew ch. 25).
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I believe it also says if you do all those things and don't know Jesus as Lord and Savior, then you are not saved. The works will not save you.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
e.r.m. said:
Through faith is not synonymous with through faith alone.

Agreed, but the Bible never speaks of the dangers of someone thinking they "earn" salvation. That's a modern day concern and catchphrase.

The Bible never says it has nothing to do with what you do. It only says not of works. "Doing" things is not scripturally excluded from getting saved.
Click to expand...

I don't believe there is another way to receive grace. Do you?

I believe that is correct but that the doing things must come from Jesus not just because you think doing things will save you.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Muffled said:
I believe it also says if you do all those things and don't know Jesus as Lord and Savior, then you are not saved. The works will not save you.
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According to the gospels, both are extremely important, especially since faith without subsequent works really isn't faith at all, per Jesus, James, and Paul.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
e.r.m. said:
Through faith is not synonymous with through faith alone.

Agreed, but the Bible never speaks of the dangers of someone thinking they "earn" salvation. That's a modern day concern and catchphrase.

The Bible never says it has nothing to do with what you do. It only says not of works. "Doing" things is not scripturally excluded from getting saved.
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Then what "things" that you do are scripturally required for salvation ?
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
metis said:
According to the gospels, both are extremely important, especially since faith without subsequent works really isn't faith at all, per Jesus, James, and Paul.
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Correct. Good works are the result of salvation, not the mechanism of salvation.

What are these good works ? They are all pretty much summed up in "do unto others as you have them do unto you"
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I don't believe there is another way to receive grace. Do you?

I believe that is correct but that the doing things must come from Jesus not just because you think doing things will save you.
Click to expand...
Though nowhere in the Bible do we find the words "salvation is by faith alone", it is clearly indicated in many verses.

The Reformation doctrine of sola fide is based upon these verses, the most well known is Jn.3; 16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH but have eternal life" I see nothing about works here.

The thief on the cross wasn't able to do any good works, yet he was saved solely by faith.

Salvation by faith alone results in good deeds, works, whatever term you want to use.

Grace, the totally unmerited favor of God provides the opportunity to be saved by faith, alone. That salvation and faith naturally leads to the Christian life, which results in treating your neighbor as yourself which is the fulfillment of the entire law.
 
metis

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
"Faith" is not an either/or dichotomy per Jesus' Parable of the Seed & Sower.

And in his Parable of the Sheep & Goats, it has it that the "Goats" believe in some things about Jesus but not in Jesus enough to actually be a disciple and do what the Gospel says they must do.
 
Spartan

Spartan

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe the Bible teaches grace and you are ignoring it.
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Baloney. I'm a big fan of John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

But the Bible also teaches against heresies, and the claim that salvation is by works is an affront to God. It basically says that the blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough.
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Muffled said:
I don't believe there is another way to receive grace. Do you?

I believe that is correct but that the doing things must come from Jesus not just because you think doing things will save you.
Click to expand...
For this I defer to Romans 9:32. Some Israelites put their faith in the law instead of God the giver of the law. If God gives us expectations to "do" to be saved, then our faith when we "do" them is in God, not in what is done itself. Much like Naaman the leper, he didn't even want to go to the Jordan, but he did so from faith in the God of Elisha.
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
shmogie said:
Then what "things" that you do are scripturally required for salvation ?
Click to expand...
Since I'm not including belief as a doing thing necessarily but I could if I brought up John 6:28-29, but I won't for now.
Acts 3:19 initial repentance, Romans 10:9-10 confessing with one's mouth the Lord Jesus, Acts 2:38-39 being baptized in Jesus name for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

All these are doing and are not "works" in the scriptures.
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
shmogie said:
Correct. Good works are the result of salvation, not the mechanism of salvation.

What are these good works ? They are all pretty much summed up in "do unto others as you have them do unto you"
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"Works" are listed basically as
1. What God has planned for us to do after we are saved. Eph. 2:10
2. Circumcision and requirements of the Mosaic law. Eph. 2:11-15
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
shmogie said:
Though nowhere in the Bible do we find the words "salvation is by faith alone", it is clearly indicated in many verses.

The Reformation doctrine of sola fide is based upon these verses, the most well known is Jn.3; 16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH but have eternal life" I see nothing about works here.

The thief on the cross wasn't able to do any good works, yet he was saved solely by faith.

Salvation by faith alone results in good deeds, works, whatever term you want to use.

Grace, the totally unmerited favor of God provides the opportunity to be saved by faith, alone. That salvation and faith naturally leads to the Christian life, which results in treating your neighbor as yourself which is the fulfillment of the entire law.
Click to expand...
The sola fide of Martin Luther is very different than today's variety. Martin Luther saw no conflict between sola fide and infant baptism as a requirement of salvation. Of course infant baptism is not Biblical, and I wish Martin Luther had gotten that, but this just shows that with sola fide, Martin Luther had something very different in mind. The sola fide of today is a new concoction.
 
e.r.m.

e.r.m.

Church of Christ
Spartan said:
Baloney. I'm a big fan of John 3:16 and Ephesians 2:8-9.

But the Bible also teaches against heresies, and the claim that salvation is by works is an affront to God. It basically says that the blood of Jesus Christ is not sufficient enough.
Click to expand...
No one here is advocating a works salvation. I think the only thing being discussed here is the definition of works.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
metis said:
According to the gospels, both are extremely important, especially since faith without subsequent works really isn't faith at all, per Jesus, James, and Paul.
Click to expand...

I believe the Bible also says everything can be forgiven except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For a believer sin is washed away by the blood of Jesus.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
shmogie said:
Though nowhere in the Bible do we find the words "salvation is by faith alone", it is clearly indicated in many verses.

The Reformation doctrine of sola fide is based upon these verses, the most well known is Jn.3; 16 " For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH but have eternal life" I see nothing about works here.

The thief on the cross wasn't able to do any good works, yet he was saved solely by faith.

Salvation by faith alone results in good deeds, works, whatever term you want to use.

Grace, the totally unmerited favor of God provides the opportunity to be saved by faith, alone. That salvation and faith naturally leads to the Christian life, which results in treating your neighbor as yourself which is the fulfillment of the entire law.
Click to expand...

I believe it does say that salvation is by belief and faith is belief in action.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
metis said:
"Faith" is not an either/or dichotomy per Jesus' Parable of the Seed & Sower.

And in his Parable of the Sheep & Goats, it has it that the "Goats" believe in some things about Jesus but not in Jesus enough to actually be a disciple and do what the Gospel says they must do.
Click to expand...

I believe the belief required is grace not works.
 
shmogie

shmogie

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I believe it does say that salvation is by belief and faith is belief in action.
Click to expand...
Salvation cannot be a result of belief, since the Bible says demons believe, and they certainly will not have salvation.

The Bible defines faith as " the evidence of things hoped for, the substance of things not seen".

Having these is what saves, nothing else. However, "good works" is the inevitable result of salvation, of saving faith.

A person who has been saved by faith alone cannot help showing it in deeds.
 
sooda

sooda

Veteran Member
metis said:
According to the gospels, both are extremely important, especially since faith without subsequent works really isn't faith at all, per Jesus, James, and Paul.
Click to expand...

I have always thought "grace" was confusing.. Is it bestowed without merit by God to a select few.. Is grace another word for "faith". If it is the former, you could love God and be faithful and still miss the boat.
 
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