Christmas birthdate of Jesus Pagan.......

Augustus · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
while it is extremely well known that christmass isn't a christian holiday at all, but a pagan holiday in Thor's/Odin's honor (among others - it's really about the winter solstice) which christianity merely hijacked and pretended that it had something to do with Jesus.

Why would a holiday that developed in the ancient Mediterranean/'Middle East' be 'hijacked' from Germanic paganism?

Some of the trappings of a European Christmas reflect non-Christian cultural practice which is obviously to be expected, although this reflects converts bringing their old traditions, not Christians 'hijacking' them. The idea that the holiday itself was hijacked is far from an established fact and is actually quite dubious.

TagliatelliMonster · Oct 25, 2019

Augustus said:
Why would a holiday that developed in the ancient Mediterranean/'Middle East' be 'hijacked' from Germanic paganism?

Pagan Roots? 5 Surprising Facts About Christmas

Some of the trappings of a European Christmas reflect non-Christian cultural practice which is obviously to be expected, although this reflects converts bringing their old traditions, not Christians 'hijacking' them. The idea that the holiday itself was hijacked is far from an established fact and is actually quite dubious.

It's not.
The bible doesn't even mention Jesus' birthday and it took hundreds of years before "christmass" as a christian holiday even existed.

Around the 1600s, protestants in england even banned the holiday because of its pagan underpinnings.

Spartan · Oct 25, 2019

Riders said:
I know its a bit early for this but what is the real birth date of Jesus? Is the December 25th the birthday of other Pagan Gods and Godesses?

It's generally believed Jesus' birthday was in the fall of the year - September / October. John 1:14 mentions that Jesus "tabernacled" with them, so some say he was born on the Feast of Tabernacles.

As for Dec. 25, that's not in the Bible. As scholars Nash, McKenzie, etc., have pointed out, the vast majority of so-called pagan myth similarities to Christ are not found until after his life, death, and resurrection. They copied Christianity.

Augustus · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
Pagan Roots? 5 Surprising Facts About Christmas

Even if it was 'hijacked' from the pagans, it certainly wouldn't have been hijacked from Germanic pagans.

There are 4 common explanations advanced (imo the last one best fits the available evidence):

1. Saturnalia appropriation
2. Sol Invictus appropriation
3. Calculation thesis (9 months from the annunciation)
4. Equinox was an actual event long seen as auspicious hence it being marked in countless traditions. Christmas was on equinox for the same reasons pagan festivals were (25th despite pagan association, not because of them).

TagliatelliMonster said:
It's not.
The bible doesn't even mention Jesus' birthday and it took hundreds of years before "christmass" as a christian holiday even existed.

Around the 1600s, protestants in england even banned the holiday because of its pagan underpinnings.

It's true that it took centuries to develop and many early Christians rejected celebrating the day of Jesus' birth, it's also true that at some point they changed their mind on this.

The idea it was mendaciously 'hijacked' is problematic though as Christmas on the 25th Dec seems to have emerged in the late 3rd/4th C at a time when Christians were still being persecuted as a religious minority who refused to assimilate (also there are no sources from that time complaining about certain sects 'hijacking' a pagan festival).

Ironically, like many of the anti-Christian arguments made by contemporary atheists, they have their roots in Protestant anti-Catholic polemics, and calling them pagans was a favourite tactic. As for factual accuracy, it's a bit like putting your faith in the 16th C version of Fox news

Anyway, puritans didn't ban Christmas for being Pagan, they banned the celebration of Christmas for encouraging immoral behaviour and distracting people from religious obligation.

TagliatelliMonster · Oct 25, 2019

Augustus said:
Even if it was 'hijacked' from the pagans, it certainly wouldn't have been hijacked from Germanic pagans.

There are 4 common explanations advanced (imo the last one best fits the available evidence):

1. Saturnalia appropriation
2. Sol Invictus appropriation
3. Calculation thesis (9 months from the annunciation)
4. Equinox was an actual event long seen as auspicious hence it being marked in countless traditions. Christmas was on equinox for the same reasons pagan festivals were (25th despite pagan association, not because of them).

It's true that it took centuries to develop and many early Christians rejected celebrating the day of Jesus' birth, it's also true that at some point they changed their mind on this.

The idea it was mendaciously 'hijacked' is problematic though as Christmas on the 25th Dec seems to have emerged in the late 3rd/4th C at a time when Christians were still being persecuted as a religious minority who refused to assimilate (also there are no sources from that time complaining about certain sects 'hijacking' a pagan festival).

Ironically, like many of the anti-Christian arguments made by contemporary atheists, they have their roots in Protestant anti-Catholic polemics, and calling them pagans was a favourite tactic. As for factual accuracy, it's a bit like putting your faith in the 16th C version of Fox news

Anyway, puritans didn't ban Christmas for being Pagan, they banned the celebration of Christmas for encouraging immoral behaviour and distracting people from religious obligation.

The fact of the matter is that 25th december was a pagan festival before it was christmass.
There is no biblical reason to set 25th of december as Jesus' birthday.

So given that 25th of december has been a pagan festival in plenty of cultures for thousands of years, and that there is no particular reason to think Jesus was born on december 25th, I'm perfectly fine with the word "hijacked".

It most definatly has no roots in christianity itself. It is pure appropriation.

Kenny · Oct 25, 2019

Riders said:
I know its a bit early for this but what is the real birth date of Jesus? Is the December 25th the birthday of other Pagan Gods and Godesses? What symbols in Jesus birth were Pagan? The stars, the fish , wise men Virgin birth etc........?????????

Heres a video

We don't know when Jesus was born, but when the celebrate Jesus on the 25th, they are celebrating His birth anyway. I celebrate His birth 365 days out of the year. We give gifts every day because "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in Him would not perish but have everlasting life".

You can be religious and law orientated about it, or you can choose love and grace.

Desert Snake · Oct 25, 2019

Atheists celebrating christmas, I mean, really. It's like satanists celebrating christmas. No difference. Better not hear anything bad about theism, since you can't even forsake one holiday.

Desert Snake · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
The fact of the matter is that 25th december was a pagan festival before it was christmass.
There is no biblical reason to set 25th of december as Jesus' birthday.

So given that 25th of december has been a pagan festival in plenty of cultures for thousands of years, and that there is no particular reason to think Jesus was born on december 25th, I'm perfectly fine with the word "hijacked".

It most definatly has no roots in christianity itself. It is pure appropriation.

Why don't you just call yourself a non sun worshipper pagan, then. What are we to infer from your comments, that you're a pagan?

It's just a mess, and where did I say there couldn't be pagan influences in things, anyway? I didn't say that. Abstract.

Augustus · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
The fact of the matter is that 25th december was a pagan festival before it was christmass.

Saturnalia was a week long festival, and Sol Invictus on the 25th may postdate Christmas and was celebrated on all kinds of dates throughout the year and so the idea of a major tradition on 25 Dec is dubious.

The winter solstice isn't necessarily the 25th Dec either

TagliatelliMonster said:
So given that 25th of december has been a pagan festival in plenty of cultures for thousands of years, and that there is no particular reason to think Jesus was born on december 25th, I'm perfectly fine with the word "hijacked".

That's no surprise. Anti-theists find it hard to be nuanced or rational when it comes to the history of religion

There is no reason to think the human Jesus was born on 25 Dec, true, but it's a big jump to this meaning they 'hijacked' (Germanic??) Paganism at a time when they were actively distancing themselves from Roman paganism to the point they were being persecuted (and there is also some evidence that 25 Dec predates the Diocletian persecution).

Do you consider all these different pagan cultures to be 'hijacking' whoever first had a winter solstice festival or could it be that different people can choose to celebrate what is an actual astrological phenomenon because it was the solstice, not simply because they wanted to deviously 'hijack' someone else's fun for marketing purposes?

Also, one specifically Christian reason offered by scholars is that it is exactly 9 months after the annunciation which is dated from Easter (and thus Passover), this is known as the calculation thesis in (secular) scholarship.

TagliatelliMonster said:
It most definatly has no roots in christianity itself. It is pure appropriation.

It has no roots in the Bible =/= it has no roots in Christianity

Who needs rigorous academic scholarship though when you can just assert that people in the ancient ME and North Africa simply hijacked Germanic Paganism in an act of "pure appropriation"?

If you are interested in actual history rather than the most ideologically pleasing version, a range of articles based on actual evidence:

The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research on JSTOR

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

How December 25 Became Christmas

Christmas, Mithras and Paganism
(this site also does a good job of highlighting the historical illiteracy common among 'New Atheists')

Desert Snake · Oct 25, 2019

There is actually a good argument that none of the traditions are pagan, they just resemble some pagan ideas, if you theorize wildly.

TagliatelliMonster · Oct 25, 2019

Augustus said:
Saturnalia was a week long festival, and Sol Invictus on the 25th may postdate Christmas and was celebrated on all kinds of dates throughout the year and so the idea of a major tradition on 25 Dec is dubious.

The winter solstice isn't necessarily the 25th Dec either

That's no surprise. Anti-theists find it hard to be nuanced or rational when it comes to the history of religion

There is no reason to think the human Jesus was born on 25 Dec, true, but it's a big jump to this meaning they 'hijacked' (Germanic??) Paganism at a time when they were actively distancing themselves from Roman paganism to the point they were being persecuted (and there is also some evidence that 25 Dec predates the Diocletian persecution).

Do you consider all these different pagan cultures to be 'hijacking' whoever first had a winter solstice festival or could it be that different people can choose to celebrate what is an actual astrological phenomenon because it was the solstice, not simply because they wanted to deviously 'hijack' someone else's fun for marketing purposes?

Also, one specifically Christian reason offered by scholars is that it is exactly 9 months after the annunciation which is dated from Easter (and thus Passover), this is known as the calculation thesis in (secular) scholarship.

It has no roots in the Bible =/= it has no roots in Christianity

Who needs rigorous academic scholarship though when you can just assert that people in the ancient ME and North Africa simply hijacked Germanic Paganism in an act of "pure appropriation"?

If you are interested in actual history rather than the most ideologically pleasing version, a range of articles based on actual evidence:

The Origins of the Christmas Date: Some Recent Trends in Historical Research on JSTOR

View attachment 33796

Steven Hijmans, "Sol Invictus, the Winter Solstice, and the Origins of Christmas"

How December 25 Became Christmas

Christmas, Mithras and Paganism
(this site also does a good job of highlighting the historical illiteracy common among 'New Atheists')

I said:

but a pagan holiday in Thor's/Odin's honor (among others - it's really about the winter solstice)

Christianity appropriated the 25th from pagan culture, which long before it celebrated this day.
Nothing you have said is showing otherwise.

The facts are simple:
- pagan culture celebrated this day in honor of their deities and / or winter solstice
- christians have no particular reason to consider it jesus birthday
- couple centuries after christianity was born, they called this date christmass

I don't think it's much of a mystery how christmass isn't an original christian holiday, but rather a borrowed / appropriated / hijacked one from other (pagan) cultures.

Note that I'm not making any claims concerning how that happened or why.
It just seems kind of clear that christmass has very little, if anything at all, to do with christianity as a religion.

Today's christmass is a mixmash of symbolism of plenty of pagan winter solstice festivals, including germanic paganism tradition.

Christianity just slapped jesus birthday on it and called it christmass.

Augustus · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
The facts are simple:
- christians have no particular reason to consider it jesus birthday

The 'Calculation Thesis' (discussed in linked articles) is based on the idea it is 9 months after the annunciation on 25 March.

Why do you consider that this is self-evidently wrong?

TagliatelliMonster said:
I don't think it's much of a mystery how christmass isn't an original christian holiday, but rather a borrowed / appropriated / hijacked one from other (pagan) cultures

I'm sure you consider that you try to be rational and base your opinions on secular scholarship and reasoned consideration of evidence.

In this case why do you believe that many secular scholars published in peer-reviewed journals (as linked to) don't see it as blindingly obvious that 25 Dec was "borrowed / appropriated / hijacked"? Are they just ignorant?

Rival · Oct 25, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
I said:

but a pagan holiday in Thor's/Odin's honor (among others - it's really about the winter solstice)

Christianity appropriated the 25th from pagan culture, which long before it celebrated this day.
Nothing you have said is showing otherwise.

The facts are simple:
- pagan culture celebrated this day in honor of their deities and / or winter solstice
- christians have no particular reason to consider it jesus birthday
- couple centuries after christianity was born, they called this date christmass

I don't think it's much of a mystery how christmass isn't an original christian holiday, but rather a borrowed / appropriated / hijacked one from other (pagan) cultures.

Note that I'm not making any claims concerning how that happened or why.
It just seems kind of clear that christmass has very little, if anything at all, to do with christianity as a religion.

Today's christmass is a mixmash of symbolism of plenty of pagan winter solstice festivals, including germanic paganism tradition.

Christianity just slapped jesus birthday on it and called it christmass.

Do you believe the concept of a month was appropriated by almost every single culture from one long ago culture? Or you think it might have something to do with a wellknown moon cycle? Your argument here would be basically, 'The concept of a month was appropriated from x culture', which is absurd.

Muffled · Oct 25, 2019

Riders said:
I know its a bit early for this but what is the real birth date of Jesus? Is the December 25th the birthday of other Pagan Gods and Godesses? What symbols in Jesus birth were Pagan? The stars, the fish , wise men Virgin birth etc........?????????

Heres a video

I believe it was Dec 24th.

I believe I don't know and don't care. Since they supposedly had eternal life unless a sword was run through them, they probably didn't remember their birth.

I believe there are none that I know of.

Muffled · Oct 25, 2019

Deeje said:
Jesus' birthdate is not recorded in scripture because the Jews did not originally celebrate birthdays....only pagans did that and they were warned not to adopt those pagan practices. Birthdays were tied up with astrology, horoscopes and spiritism, something that God forbade. (Deuteronomy 18:9-12)

In an effort to gain pagan converts the Roman Catholic clergy in the fourth century after Christ's death, took in this pagan Saturnalia on December 25 and sponsored it as the “mass of Christ” or “Christ-mass.” Christmas, is therefore nothing more than a carbon copy of the pagan Saturnalia under a new name. This is generally admitted by historical and religious scholars. Saturnalia was “the feast of Saturn", which was a winter festival that lasted a week beginning on the twenty-fifth day of December, and was celebrated with dancing, the exchanging of gifts, and the burning of candles. The Saturnalia was later taken over by the Christians as their Christmas, and given a new significance.

Roman Emperor Constantine was an astute politician, of whom it was said that for every Christian church, he built a temple for Zeus, who was his principle deity all his life. The reason why he declared Roman Catholicism to be the state religion in the first place was because he wanted to consolidate his religiously divided empire. By providing a fusion of the two, he created a "universal" (Catholic) religion in a "one size fits all" arrangement with enough components of each to satisfy everyone. Northern hemisphere customs crept in over time and made Christmas what it is to this day.

Easter too fits this description. Easter was a fertility goddess whose emblems were rabbits and eggs.
Christendom is full of things that don't belong but because the people like them they justified keeping them. But if you read 2 Corinthians 6:14-18 you will see that it does not sit well with God to try to combine true worship with false worship.

I believe W's are extremely supersticious about this.

Muffled · Oct 25, 2019

nPeace said:
So are Atheists celebrating Christ's mass, when they celebrate Christmas, or are "Christians" celebrating a pagan holiday that was adopted by the 4th century "Christians"?

I believe I don't know what others do but I celebrate the birth of Jesus and have no problem with Pagan traditions that add color and meaning (once we co-opt it) to the holiday.

nPeace · Oct 25, 2019

Muffled said:
I believe it was Dec 24th.

I believe I don't know and don't care. Since they supposedly had eternal life unless a sword was run through them, they probably didn't remember their birth.

I believe there are none that I know of.

Why wouldn't you care Muffled? What if Jesus is not pleased with it? Should you not care?
When did Jesus say it's okay to celebrate his birth?
If you knew that birthdays originated with pagans who considered themselves gods, and wanted to receive undue honor from men, and people slapped a date (already used as a time to celebrate a pagan holiday), on you, and claimed to be celebrating your birth-date - something you don't approve of, or never asked for... how would you feel?
Worst yet, they ignore the things you care about...
Would you not think that those persons really didn't care about you, but only cared about their belly, and having a good time? Would you not be incensed?

Deeje · Oct 26, 2019

nPeace said:
Why wouldn't you care Muffled? What if Jesus is not pleased with it? Should you not care?
When did Jesus say it's okay to celebrate his birth?
If you knew that birthdays originated with pagans who considered themselves gods, and wanted to receive undue honor from men, and people slapped a date (already used as a time to celebrate a pagan holiday), on you, and claimed to be celebrating your birth-date - something you don't approve of, or never asked for... how would you feel?
Worst yet, they ignore the things you care about...
Would you not think that those persons really didn't care about you, but only cared about their belly, and having a good time? Would you not be incensed?

Yes, its funny how they seem to think that because they love the celebrations and all the trappings, that God must love it too......he already said that he will not tolerate a fusion of true and false religion. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18) Its foolish to ignore that warning....it is after all, the worship of false gods that they are imitating.

It reminds me of the golden calf incident.....they called that "a festival to the Lord" but because it had all the trappings of false worship, God put the perpetrators to death.

Kenny · Oct 26, 2019

TagliatelliMonster said:
I said:

but a pagan holiday in Thor's/Odin's honor (among others - it's really about the winter solstice)

Christianity appropriated the 25th from pagan culture, which long before it celebrated this day.
Nothing you have said is showing otherwise.

Here is a possible scenario of how it all came about by what is happening today...

1) Halloween celebrates the ancient Celtic festival of Samhain when people would light bonfires and wear costumes to ward off ghosts. But it had lost its reason and basically became just a fun night.
2) Christians decided that it became more and more potential of evil (with pins in apples etc) and the proliferation of costumes that represented evil
3) Children enjoyed a time of fun so Christians said "Let's start a Harvest party at the same night so that the children can still have fun but at the same time we won't be exalting a representation of evil and protect our children at the same time!
4) At the same time we can exalt Jesus in the midst of all of this
4) 100 years from now, people starting writing how "Harvest Parties" hijacked a Celtic Festival instead of "Christians offered a alternative to a pagan festival so as to not exalt evil and reach people for Jesus at the same time".

THE Art Vandelay · Oct 26, 2019

EVERYTHING about Christmas is of pagan origin, with NO basis or support in the Bible. The Christians of Jesus' time didn't celebrate ANY birthdays, always considering them to be pagan observances as well. Jesus' actual birth occurred most likely sometime in mid-October, not Dec 25th. If any birthday celebrations were acceptable to God, certainly that of his own Son would have been commanded to be observed, and it wasn't. His actual date of birth is uknown, the Bible has NO direction to commemorate anything but his DEATH.

Christmas birthdate of Jesus Pagan.......

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