Why are Jehovah's Witnesses reluctant to discuss their faith?

Milton Platt said:

Science is a methodology (or rather a number of methodologies) and doesn't try to provide "truths". It examines the natural world and postulates hypotheses, which then must be tested and modified until they become theories which adequately explain a given phenomenon while taking into account all of the evidence and doing damage to none of it.

How can you have taught science and not known that?

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Certainly I know that. And many time I have debated with creationists
on this very forum (though from a different perspective to both theirs
and presumably your own.)
Yes, science is the best methodology for coming to an understanding
of the "natural world." Two things though.
1 - spiritual issues raised by the bible don't concern the natural world
2 - the natural world operates in a mechanistic or probabilistic manner.
Neither of these could operate to create the natural world.

PruePhillip said:

Certainly I know that. And many time I have debated with creationists
on this very forum (though from a different perspective to both theirs
and presumably your own.)
Yes, science is the best methodology for coming to an understanding
of the "natural world." Two things though.
1 - spiritual issues raised by the bible don't concern the natural world
2 - the natural world operates in a mechanistic or probabilistic manner.
Neither of these could operate to create the natural world.

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I know of no way to verify that there is anything other than the natural world. So if there is no way to verify it's existence, why worry about it?

Why would one regard the Bible as anything but stories from an ancient culture?

Milton Platt said:

I know of no way to verify that there is anything other than the natural world. So if there is no way to verify it's existence, why worry about it?

Why would one regard the Bible as anything but stories from an ancient culture?

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Well, for starters, one of those "stories" is being played out right now.
That is, the collapse of Western Christianity and the return of the Jews
to their homeland - some 2,000 after they were exiled. As the bible said.
Many of those "stories" are gradually been uncovered. Some of the
accounts written off as "mythic" when I was growing up have come to
light - such as the House of David, some of the prophets, places that
weren't supposed to have existed, a better understanding of the Bronze
Age that the bible wasn't supposed to have known about etc..
Even a new way of looking at the early earth. Things figured out over the
past 10-15 years have shown a broad sequence of events that accords
with the bible's account of earth and life.

Milton Platt said:

I know of no way to verify that there is anything other than the natural world. So if there is no way to verify it's existence, why worry about it?

Why would one regard the Bible as anything but stories from an ancient culture?

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The account of Abraham in Genesis. Here was a man who would have figured things
out quite well before his story, at the age of 75 actually began. Sure, he would have
believed that God brought the rain, but he would have had a good eye for the seasons,
clouds, animal behavior etc that prefigured if there was going to be rain.
And he had to prove God for himself through his experiences. His experiences did not
negate God or the physical universe. There was, to him, two realms - the physical and
the spiritual.

Milton Platt said:

I know of no way to verify that there is anything other than the natural world. So if there is no way to verify it's existence, why worry about it?

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Many of our mathematicians, physicists and astronomers are deeply involved with research in to the 'unnatural' that is all around us. That is where some scientists have been reaching out to since the 1940s.

Why would one regard the Bible as anything but stories from an ancient culture?

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Because the 507 'social' laws written in the Old Testament are so amazing, and many of them still needed.

...... wait for it.........

PruePhillip said:

Well, for starters, one of those "stories" is being played out right now.
That is, the collapse of Western Christianity and the return of the Jews
to their homeland - some 2,000 after they were exiled. As the bible said.
Many of those "stories" are gradually been uncovered. Some of the
accounts written off as "mythic" when I was growing up have come to
light - such as the House of David, some of the prophets, places that
weren't supposed to have existed, a better understanding of the Bronze
Age that the bible wasn't supposed to have known about etc..
Even a new way of looking at the early earth. Things figured out over the
past 10-15 years have shown a broad sequence of events that accords
with the bible's account of earth and life.

Click to expand...

There were always some Jews in the Middle east, even in that area. Also, the Jewish bloodline is so mingled with the rest of the world, that there is in all likelihood, no one who is truly Jewish, except with regards their religion.

Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

I don't doubt that the people who wrote the stories were geographically literate with regards to the places around where they lived. that would make sense. They would also be aware of who their kings were. No big deal.

It isn't hard to see a prophecy coming true when you had some of the most powerful nations on earth working to make it come true because they believed in the prophesy. Self-fulfilling. I'm not impressed.

But in any event, these are all within the natural world.

oldbadger said:

Many of our mathematicians, physicists and astronomers are deeply involved with research in to the 'unnatural' that is all around us. That is where some scientists have been reaching out to since the 1940s.


Because the 507 'social' laws written in the Old Testament are so amazing, and many of them still needed.

...... wait for it.........

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See my profile below. The Old Testament was about the do's and dont's.
We are supposed to live under the New Testament, or covenant of grace.
As we rapidly lose this understanding we must, of necessity, revert back
to Old Testament style do's and dont's.
For instance when I was growing up it wasn't thought possible that children
could sexually abuse. There were issues of family honor, respect, reputation
and of course, a society that wasn't sexualized. But now in some Australian
schools there are remedial courses for primary school boys to learn how to
respect girls. Now there's all these new laws to govern how the sexes can
interact that simply would have been unfathomable a few generations back.

Milton Platt said:

There were always some Jews in the Middle east, even in that area. Also, the Jewish bloodline is so mingled with the rest of the world, that there is in all likelihood, no one who is truly Jewish, except with regards their religion.

Before Zionism: The shared life of Jews and Palestinians | +972 Magazine

I don't doubt that the people who wrote the stories were geographically literate with regards to the places around where they lived. that would make sense. They would also be aware of who their kings were. No big deal.

It isn't hard to see a prophecy coming true when you had some of the most powerful nations on earth working to make it come true because they believed in the prophesy. Self-fulfilling. I'm not impressed.

But in any event, these are all within the natural world.

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True. These things were of the natural world. But... I do love what Jacob told his
son Judah (ca 2000 BC) that there would be a Jewish nation and from his line
would come the Jewish monarchs - but this would all end with the Messiah, and
it would be the Gentiles who would believe in Him.
Ezekiel and Isaiah wrote of a second return of the Jews to Israel - at a time when
they either hadn't been in exile once, or were actually in captivity. These things
seems absurd to bible people.
If you look up Cohen, Jew and DNA you will find interesting connections between
people of this name and the ancient tribe of Levi - Israel's priests who went back
to Aaron, Moses own brother.

oldbadger said:

Many of our mathematicians, physicists and astronomers are deeply involved with research in to the 'unnatural' that is all around us. That is where some scientists have been reaching out to since the 1940s.


Because the 507 'social' laws written in the Old Testament are so amazing, and many of them still needed.

...... wait for it.........

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There is no need for a bible to decide what is correct behavior within a given society. What is permitted and what is prohibited is decided by the society.

As to the "social" laws, they included things like where to buy your slaves and how much you were allowed to beat them, and that you could pass them down to your children.

PruePhillip said:

True. These things were of the natural world. But... I do love what Jacob told his
son Judah (ca 2000 BC) that there would be a Jewish nation and from his line
would come the Jewish monarchs - but this would all end with the Messiah, and
it would be the Gentiles who would believe in Him.
Ezekiel and Isaiah wrote of a second return of the Jews to Israel - at a time when
they either hadn't been in exile once, or were actually in captivity. These things
seems absurd to bible people.
If you look up Cohen, Jew and DNA you will find interesting connections between
people of this name and the ancient tribe of Levi - Israel's priests who went back
to Aaron, Moses own brother.

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I can't find where Jacob said the gentiles would believe in a messiah, only that they would be blessed.
The people who wrote the New Testament stories knew the Old Testament stories and were motivated to make their stories fit the narrative.
There is no evidence that the Jews were in captivity in Egypt, or were there in any significant number.

Milton Platt said:

I can't find where Jacob said the gentiles would believe in a messiah, only that they would be blessed.
The people who wrote the New Testament stories knew the Old Testament stories and were motivated to make their stories fit the narrative.
There is no evidence that the Jews were in captivity in Egypt, or were there in any significant number.

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Genesis 49:10
The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes and the
allegiance of the nations is his.
This verse implies a nation (for there to be a monarchy.)
UNTIL is the operative word, meaning this monarchy, law and nation will end. When will a Jewish
nation end? With the coming of the Messiah. Why would it end? Obviously because that nation
is taken from the Jews.
Shiloh is a name for the Messiah
"allegiance of the nations" meaning Gentiles (expressed as such in some translations.)

We don't know much about Jews in Egypt at that time. Certainly we aren't going to learn either
as the archaeology is buried beneath Muslim cities. (I have person experience with archaeologists
who bury what they don't like.)
Numbers are unknown. We do know, from satellite imagery, that the population of Egypt was way
higher than we once thought. And that is true for other cultures too.

Saying "there is no evidence" is not the same as saying "it didn't happen, or exist."
A few generations ago people would say "There's no evidence of King David", meaning that whole
Davidic story was made up. But that's not science.

There is no evidence the New Testament account was made up. The figures, locations and
politics mentioned in the Gospels and Act accord fairly well with the history. What you take on
faith are the miracles of course.

PruePhillip said:

See my profile below. The Old Testament was about the do's and dont's.
We are supposed to live under the New Testament, or covenant of grace.

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Well Jesus didn't think that.
Who told you this junk? Jesus never did.
Jesus wanted the return of the 507, 2000 years ago.

As we rapidly lose this understanding we must, of necessity, revert back
to Old Testament style do's and dont's.

Click to expand...

So you do need 'em after all.

For instance when I was growing up it wasn't thought possible that children
could sexually abuse. There were issues of family honor, respect, reputation
and of course, a society that wasn't sexualized. But now in some Australian
schools there are remedial courses for primary school boys to learn how to
respect girls. Now there's all these new laws to govern how the sexes can
interact that simply would have been unfathomable a few generations back.

Click to expand...

A few generations back there was so much filth and corruption hidden under wicked hypocritical social values.
The whole thing needed shaking from tip to toe and deep into roots.

The 507 OT laws for a syrong community are not bad. Some need adjusting, such as the 'have lots of kids' guidance, since we are massively overpopulated, and this is why closed couples of any sexuality are fine, because kids are not needed so urgently any more.

Milton Platt said:

There is no need for a bible to decide what is correct behavior within a given society. What is permitted and what is prohibited is decided by the society.

Click to expand...

Well it's strange that society uses such a large % of the OT laws still!
Where I live the 'parapet around flat roofs' law is still in force, just as it was in the OT laws. You should read 'em.
Quite amazing.

But I'm not saying that we must follow all the OT laws, I'm simply saying that we need to respect the fact that they were absolutely brilliant, as shown by their presence in legislation today.

As to the "social" laws, they included things like where to buy your slaves and how much you were allowed to beat them, and that you could pass them down to your children.

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Chapters and verses, please? Old Testament if possible?
Only for interest, you understand, and not Paul's stuff, please. I think Paul was a total moral wreck.

Look, that you try tell me about slavery laws (which I want to see from the OT, not Paul's drivvle) just tells me that you've lost the plot. This is like trying to me that I live in a totally wicked country because of PM Thatcher's Poll Tax laws nearly 40 years ago.

oldbadger said:

Well Jesus didn't think that.
Who told you this junk? Jesus never did.
Jesus wanted the return of the 507, 2000 years ago.


So you do need 'em after all.


A few generations back there was so much filth and corruption hidden under wicked hypocritical social values.
The whole thing needed shaking from tip to toe and deep into roots.

The 507 OT laws for a syrong community are not bad. Some need adjusting, such as the 'have lots of kids' guidance, since we are massively overpopulated, and this is why closed couples of any sexuality are fine, because kids are not needed so urgently any more.

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Not sure what 507 is. Christianity is not the Old Testament Judaism. We don't live under
Jewish laws. Jesus gave us just two laws - and certainly, a lot of moral admonition.
It's fashionable to condemn the "hypocrisy" of past generations. What else can we do
when it is THEY who would condemn our drug addled and adulterous generations.
One DNA study of family graves from the 1700 and 1800's found little "inter-mingling"
of foreign DNA in samples. Meaning that back then mums and dads were who they
said they were.

Hockeycowboy said:

Not “science”, in general. But specific fields veer into the field of philosophy, and have to be adjusted when more evidence is discovered.

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Do you include physics in that 'field'?
Do you include ALL science? After all, science, by its nature, is ever-changing as more evidence is built up.

JW’s have posted a lot on science!
Science — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

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They sure do.... They sure do. Much of it is copy-pasted from other sources. Some of it is just, basically, whining with their fingers in their ears.

Like this joke of an essay:

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Jose Fly said:

Where? I have never seen a JW openly admit that being a JW affects their views on science-related subjects. Instead, all I ever see is Witnesses doing what they can to downplay that, and give the impression that their views on things like evolution are purely empirical.

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This thread is a great example:

The Miracle of Water.

It actually is a bit of a hybrid - JW teaching is used as 'evidence' that, in this case, water is a miracle. At least at the outset. Before long, it is the usual 'I know all', typical creationist stuff, and little or no mention of JW.

Hockeycowboy said:

To us, “being a Witness” is synonymous with “understanding what the Scriptures say.”

So, I acknowledge that understanding what the Scriptures say plays a role in shaping my views on Common-Descent evolution.

We don’t deny empirical evidence of micro evolution.

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But you deny any evidence that counters the musings of ancient mystics. Cool compartmentalization. Perhaps you can start a thread documenting exactly how micro and macro differ from your Scriptural perspective.

Hockeycowboy said:

Google “Richard Sternberg”.

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Yes - and read about how he totally mis-characterized his supposed poor treatment after he took liberties with his editor position and let a creationist essay on the Cambrian 'explosion' get published in a journal whose focus was .systematics and taxonomy.

Hockeycowboy said:

Well, see, there’s a discrepancy right there. (That’s why I said “common descent”.) There may be evolution occurring within Family taxa.

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So you are OK with the evolution of new Genera?
Because that is totally macroevolution.

But even that isn’t support by empirical evidence, by what’s observed and experienced. It’s based on conjecture... informed maybe, but still guesses.

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See, now this is the sort of thing that annoys me. I have presented a series of papers on here documenting the establishment of a tested methodology's reliability, and the application of these methods to the question of Primate evolution. All empirical. All easily testable. None falsified. I KNOW you have seen this list, for I have posted it in response to you. And I have posted this list probably 30 times.
Yet here you are, pretending that it is all just 'conjecture.' Because that is what you have been told it is.
Bias is the least of your problems.

Both... but I’ll say this....even before I became a Witness, I didn’t ‘follow the crowd’ in their esteem of the theory. I was never objective toward it. So, strike one, eh?

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That is probably due to your documentable level of scientific experience.

Hockeycowboy said:

@Jose Fly , why did Jesus give his life for mankind?

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I am not convinced that these events happened. Start a thread and show your non-biblical corroboration.