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The Authority of the Church

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No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc,

If the milk and meat analogy from Paul works here, then why is it that you can never be sure if what you're saying is you or the Spirit? The Spirit will say one thing, and later another. The Spirit tells one person something, but another something else. He wouldn't do this.

In the context, when Paul talks about that, he isn't talking about the Spirit's teaching each person a different teaching or doctrine. He is referring to what he is able to teach the Corinthians. So, until such time that Paul judged them ready, they were to have milk. At that time, Paul would give them meat. In the same way, the successors of the Apostles give to each of their parishoners according to their capacity.

On the Pope, I'm Orthodox, not Roman Catholic. This is one of the big issues, if not the root issue, that caused the Roman Patriarch to separate from the other four Patriarchs in the Church. It is true that Rome occupied a special place in the Early Church, but not the sole monarch of all Christianity. I'll leave that issue to Roman Catholics to defend, since the Orthodox Church (the term Catholic was perferred in the West, while Orthodox in the East, but when the Schism occurred, both titles fell on one Church. Rome claims to be that Church, but so do we).
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
The NT was written by Catholics.
Please prove this premise.

I never said the Scipture "failed."
Yes you did. In fact you said it failed on two counts. Please don't hold me responsible for "filtering" what you say. That's what you said.

Given those realities, I will not press further unless you both acknowledge that I offered Scripture and offer a sound rebuttal.
I cannot acknowledge the second part. You have not offered me a sound rebuttal as to why I should reject the New Testament in favor of the Gospel of No. Neither scripture tells me to do so, and I am waiting for you to trot out one that does. As one of my favorite contributers likes to say... "I am underwhelmed". :D

Now, for the last rebut, you need to learn more about Roman Catholicism
Where in the scriptures would I find this tenet? In the Gospel of No? Look at the smilies my friend. They are an important etymological device in forumizing.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
St. Ignatius, a student of the Apostle John, used it in exactly the same way I am using it.
I don't see this in the New Testament at all. Why should I accept it elswhere? You say this indicates that John accepted it, and I must disagree. That is an assumption on your part and nothing more.

BTW, I would also ask if the word "Catholic" was used as a noun or as a pronoun. It would be telling if like Luther, a sect was named by accident and in possible contradiction to the one writing. Luther would have been aghast if he knew that there would be a sect named after him.

While we are on the "milk vs meat" issue lets look at the verse:

I Corithians 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly--mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men? 5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. [/color]

Because of this passage, I am niether Catholic, Protestant nor Jew. Just a Christian, following the Scriptures and believeing in the power of God. Everything we need as Christians is in the New Testament. ALL of the teachings are there... but you won't start to understand them until your heart thirsts after God's teaching, and you start to DO and not just SAY.

OK, you went from being Baptist to being Catholic. You went from one sect to yet another. I went from Catholicism as a child to UU in the 6th grade, and finally renounced all sects and became a Christian only in the fall of 1975 when I went to the University of Florida. Some people claim to be "non-denominational", well I am probably better described as "anti-denominational". I don't believe God deals in "franchises".
 

logos

Member
NetDoc said:
Let me clarify... none of those who wrote the gospels seemed to want to call themselves "catholic". No where do they attest to being anything but Christian, saved, followers of the way, etc... but never catholic. Did anathasius attest to being Catholic?
St. Athanasius was the Bishop of Alexandria and is an early doctor of the Church. He was also present at the Council of Nicea. Yes, he did attest to being a Catholic.

It's great that you don't want to put words in a modern man's mouth, but I would be less inclined to put them into the mouths of the ancients. The latter are not here to defend themselves or their honor.
How am I putting words in the mouths of the "ancient?" I am merely telling you who St. Athanasius was and stating how he composed a canon of Scripture in his Festal Letter of 367. In fact, since the next step someone will take is to tell me to quote where he says this, I will below. This is from the 39th letter of his collection of Festal Letters.

In proceeding to make mention of these things, I shall adopt, to
commend my undertaking, the pattern of Luke the Evangelist, saying on my own
account: 'Forasmuch as some have taken in hand(4),' to reduce into order for
themselves the books termed apocryphal, and to mix them up with the divinely
inspired Scripture, concerning which we have been fully persuaded, as they who
from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the Word, delivered to
the fathers; it seemed



552



good to me also, having been urged thereto by true brethren, and having
learned from the beginning, to set before you the books included in the Canon,
and handed down, and accredited as Divine; to the end that any one who has
fallen into error may condemn those who have led him astray; and that he who
has continued stedfast in purity may again rejoice, having these things
brought to his remembrance.

4. There are, then, of the Old Testament, twenty-two books in number; for,
as I have heard, it is handed down that this is the number of the letters
among the Hebrews; their respective order and names being as follows. The
first is Genesis, then Exodus, next Leviticus, after that Numbers, and then
Deuteronomy. Following these there is Joshua, the son of Nun, then Judges,
then Ruth. And again, after these four books of Kings, the first and second
being reckoned as one book, and so likewise the third and fourth as one book.
And again, the first and second of the Chronicles are reckoned as one book.
Again Ezra, the first and second(4a) are similarly one book. After these there
is the book of Psalms, then the Proverbs, next Ecclesiastes, and the Song of
Songs. Job follows, then the Prophets, the twelve being reckoned as one book.
Then Isaiah, one book, then Jeremiah with Baruch, Lamentations, and[5] the
epistle, one book; afterwards, Ezekiel and Daniel, each one book. Thus far
constitutes the Old Testament.

5. Again it is not tedious to speak of the [books] of the New Testament.
These are, the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Afterwards, the Acts of the Apostles and Epistles (called Catholic), seven,
viz. of James, one; of Peter, two; of John, three; after these, one of Jude.
In addition, there are fourteen Epistles of Paul, written in this order. The
first, to the Romans; then two to the Corinthians; after these, to the
Galatians; next, to the Ephesians; then to the Philippians; then to the
Colossians; after these, two to the Thessalonians, and that to the Hebrews;
and again, two to Timothy; one to Titus; and lastly, that to Philemon. And
besides, the Revelation of John.

6. These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied
with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine
of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these.
For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, 'Ye do
err, not knowing the Scriptures.' And He reproved the Jews, saying, 'Search
the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me(6).'

7. But for greater exactness I add this also, writing of necessity; that there
are other books besides these not indeed included in the Canon, but appointed
by the Fathers to be read by those who newly join us, and who wish for
instruction in the word of godliness. The Wisdom of Solomon, and the Wisdom of
Sirach, and Esther, and Judith, and Tobit, and that which is called the
Teaching of the Apostles, and the Shepherd. But the former, my brethren, are
included in the Canon, the latter being [merely] read; nor is there in any
place a mention of apocryphal writings. But they are an invention of heretics,
who write them when they choose, bestowing upon them their approbation, and
assigning to them a date, that so, using them as ancient writings, they may
find occasion to lead astray the simple.
You can get the entirety of his letters from http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2806.htm
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
No*s said:
the term Catholic was perferred in the West, while Orthodox in the East, but when the Schism occurred, both titles fell on one Church. Rome claims to be that Church, but so do we
For the record.... I feel that we are equally "that Church" and I pray that some day soon the Church will breathe again with "both lungs".

Scott
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
Replacement Theology is being peddled here. Phoney as a Three Dollar Bill!

Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

Both the Catholic and the Christian Churches have need of Teshuvah! That is if they wish to be a part of the Elect. ;)
 

jvi

Member
I think Christianity comes more in focus if you know how Nimrod sun god worship and Esau pharisees affect the world today.
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
jvi said:
I think Christianity comes more in focus if you know how Nimrod sun god worship and Esau pharisees affect the world today.
Why is it, that your sect is so against everything? Why not imitate Paul as he imitates Yeshua Ha Mashiach?

For a change be for the whole truth!
 

jvi

Member
Ronald said:
Why is it, that your sect is so against everything? Why not imitate Paul as he imitates Yeshua Ha Mashiach?

For a change be for the whole truth!

Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
I am just helping others see what the way of the heathen is so we can banish it.

Read this about St Valentine's Day and see a little about the way of the heathen.
http://www.youth-web.org/bibleStudy/study26.htm
 

Ronald

Well-Known Member
jvi said:
Ro 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";
I am just helping others see what the way of the heathen is so we can banish it.

Read this about St Valentine's Day and see a little about the way of the heathen.
http://www.youth-web.org/bibleStudy/study26.htm
On who's authority do you pull up the weeds growing in the masters field?
Authority is the topic of this thread. Is it not?
Mt.13:28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’
29 But he said, ‘No; lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them.

Obey, whom you say you serve!:tsk:
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
SOGFPP said:
For the record.... I feel that we are equally "that Church" and I pray that some day soon the Church will breathe again with "both lungs".
Scott

I hope that Rome and the others may reunite as well. Both of us lost something when the Schism happened. It will be difficult for something like that to happen since notable differences have crept in, and one or both sides would have to compromise its teaching :(.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
I don't see this in the New Testament at all. Why should I accept it elswhere? You say this indicates that John accepted it, and I must disagree. That is an assumption on your part and nothing more.

Quick question: Do you believe John wrote everything he believed in three very short epistles, one Gospel, and the book of Revelation? If so, then I can't do any more. If you do, then dismissing a term, or theology, taught by his student is very hasty. It is even more hasty when he expects everyone he writes to already accept it.

As for how he used the term "Catholic," it was used as an adjective. That is, it narrowed the definition of "Church." "Catholic" cannot be used as a pronoun under any circumstance; it is not grammatically possible.

Yes, Paul's passage there is compelling. Let's note several attributes, though. First, everyone that he's writing to, is still in the same church. Paul makes it abundantly clear in his epistle that he is expecting those same factions to hear this letter, and this would not be possible if they weren't assembling together. It was a matter of inter-church politics, where each party set their favorite teacher up and tried to usurp power. It happened again, and that is the entire subject of Clement's epistle in 70 A.D.

Second, is that Paul believed in casting people out. The "Judaizers" were basically a group of people that said, "Here is the teaching of Christ" in competition with the Apostles. This same Paul who writes against sects here, said that a sect that doesn't preach what he preached should be accursed. in Galatians 2 On one occasion, he even wished that they would go casterate themselves (Gal. 5.12). These are both Scripture. Since these are in the same book, we may associate them. Now, had I uttered those words today, would I be a sectarian of the worst sort?

Note also that the General Epistles use the same vitriol. Other groups are "clouds without water" in Jude 12, and there he was even including some people in mainstream services. I have already noted this kind of language in II Peter. In the epistles of John, it seems the Apostle John exhibited the exact same sectarian spirit, and this is noteworthy on account of our conversation. He says that many antichrists have already come, and then procedes to explain why those who broke off from them were never part of the Body of Christ, because they broke off from them in I John.

The word "sect" is telling in itself. A "sect" is the same basic concept as a "section." So, it is a group that "sectioned" itself off. A "heresy" was originally a group that departed from the rest of Christians, and was condemned with great vigor. In fact, it means "split." Calling the Catholic Church a "sect" is rather misleading, then, unless you can tell me who it broke off of.

OK, so you don't call yourself a Protestant. Where do you differ from Protestantism or Neo-Protestantism? You've been using the Protestant approach to the Bible. The sentiment that the Bible is all we need doesn't predate the Reformers. At the very least, that's Protestant.
 

jvi

Member
"On who's authority do you pull up the weeds growing in the masters field?"

I guess it would be on God's authority.If God wasn't ready to allow it then it wouldn't be happening.In the second coming there is a harvest.The tares get pulled up first then the wheat is gathered into the barn.
 

jewscout

Religious Zionist
jvi said:
"On who's authority do you pull up the weeds growing in the masters field?"

I guess it would be on God's authority.
That's a pretty bold statement to be making jvi. And what deeds have you performed to prove that G-d has given you that authority?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
NetDoc said:
Yes you did. In fact you said it failed on two counts. Please don't hold me responsible for "filtering" what you say. That's what you said.

Actually, no I didn't. I said that the Scripture was meant for a purpose and asked if it was a failure if when people take it outside of the purpose God meant for it, that it results in misleading people? Remember, those same Scriptures are used to prove that Jesus is not God by some sects, by others that God copulated with Mary, still others that UFOs have been visiting people, and there are as many as there are people. Is the Scripture failing with these people? Most of the ones I've met are very earnest and honest in their desire to learn from Scripture.

I can also use this same logic with practically anything else. God gave humans freewill, and then humans rebelled against Him. This wasn't the plan of God. Did God fail? I would say that is worse than what you construe with the Bible. God intended the creation to be good, but we twist it to poison each other, and wipe out whole populations. Did God's creation fail? Your logic with Scripture applies equally well here. If I am blaspheming by saying that the Scripture does not produce godly results when misused, then why stop there? By your standard, you will have to call everyone on this board blasphemers, and I would guess, even yourself.

If I have not offered a sound rebuttal to your use of II Tim., then please, explain something than say "thorough" means "only." That is what your response to my response required. You never responded to my response on II Peter either. Those are rebuttals. They were logical. Each used the passage's context to make a point. The only exception was my response to "thorough," because "thorough" doesn't require a sense of "only." So, if they were insufficient, then please revisit them.

I'm sorry on the "smilies," but I cannot see them. My sole browser is a text-only browser, and my computer's sole serial port is taken up by the modem. It has no PS/2 port. Until such time as I can afford another computer, I am stuck with this one. It has actually chaffed me that every time I type a : and a ) back to back, the system doesn't display it : ).

As for proof of my claims on Catholicism, I will do so in the next post.
 

jvi

Member
If Jesus was in front of you would you know it was him? What would make you conclude if that person was Jesus?
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
For my defense of Catholicism, I must first note that SOGFPP has already written a good deal, and written it well here:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6126

I have on top of all this already proven in this thread that peculiar Catholic doctrines have already existed. For example, the term "Catholic" referred to the "Catholic Church" goes back to well before the year 107 by way of Ignatius (the Christians who called themselves "Catholic" never meant "catholic" with a little "c" until people wanted to start justifying schisms), or as another, that first century Christians did fast on Fridays. These are common points of dispute.

I have also demonstrated that while the Apostles taught unity, they didn't accept every schism that came along. Telling someone that they should castrate themselves is not kosher for that purposes. Calling others "antichrists" also seems quite "sectarian" by today's non-denom standards.

Rather than focus on all the details, I can answer a specific challenge if it comes. I focus instead on the bishop and the Eucharist. The term "bishop" is found in the Bible. Since it is the same word as "episkopos," then it is also an exact equivalent.

Christ established the bishoprick. That is the only office that He established. The Apostles started the deaconate, and we don't know when or where in the first century the episcopate separated from the presbytery. We do know that it was widespread by the year 107, so it happened at least in John's own lifetime, maybe while others were alive. If they didn't have a problem with it, then neither do I.

When Christ established His Church, He did not establish some amorphous entity nobody could identify and which taught every possible belief, but we accepted everyone in the name of "unity." That contradicts the multiplicity of anathemas, curses, and attacks in the New Testament and the Fathers against people who taught differently than the Apostles.

Paul gives quite a bit of information concerning the role of the bishop. What he doesn't do is explain where it comes from. Where was it instituted, and why? Exactly what role does it play? He doesn't quite say. He does go into great length about what he does. What you can gather is that he "rules" the flock of God.

What, then, do we know abou it? Quite a bit, actually. I mentioned before Clement of Rome, and that he was a companion of Paul and wrote a letter in the year 70 AD. Here is what he says:

"Our apostles likewise knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife over the bishop's office. For this reason, therefore, having recieved complete foreknowledge, they appointed the officials mentioned earlier and afterwards they gave the offices a permanent character; that is, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry. Those, therefore, who were appointed by them or, later on, by other reputable men with the consent of the whole church, and who have ministered to the flock of Christ blamelessly, humbly, peaceably, and unselfishly, and for a long time have been well spoken of by all--these men we consider to be unjustly removed from their ministry. For it will be no small sin for us, if we depose from the bishop's office those who have offered the gifts blamelessly and in holiness." (I Clement 44.1-4)

Here, Clement is rebuking the Corinthian church. Paul has died, and the fight that he had to deal with has resurfaced again. They have deposed the bishop to put their own man in. Clement is, thus, telling them here how the bishoprick came about. Christ founded it, and taught that when a bishop dies, his position is supposed to be filled immediately.

The Scripture doesn't explain the origins of the office of Bishop, but we know from here where it came from. It is also in harmony with the Gospel of John's claim that all the world's libraries couldn't possibly hold all that Jesus did. Today, this doctrine Clement is attributing to Christ is called Apostolic Succession, and it is a linchpin of Catholicism. One can only claim to live in harmony with this teaching of Jesus by participating in a church that has such succession.

Another Church Father, this one in the mid-second century, in his struggle against Gnostics:

"But again, when we refer them to that tradition which originates from the apostles, and which is preserved by means of successions of presbyters in the Churches, they object to tradition, saying that they themselves are wiser not merely than the presbyters, but even than the apostles, because they have discovered the unadulterated truth...[a long explanation of Gnostic thought]...It is within the power of all, therefore, in every Church, who may wish to see the truth, to contemplate clearly the tradition of the apostles manifested throughout the whole world; and we are in a position to reckon up those were by the apostles instituted bishops in the Churches, and to demonstrate the succession of these men to our own times; those who neither taught nor knew of anything like what these heretics rave about. For if the apostles had known hidden mysteries, which they were in the habit of imparting to `the perfect' apart and privily the rest, they would have delivered to those whom they were also committing the Churches themselves" (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book III, chps. II-II).

Irenaeus, also, is not far from the Apostles, though unlike Clement or Ignatius, he did not know them. What he emphasises is the same thing Clement emphasised in 70: that there was a succession from the Apostles, and that these bishops were authoritative. He is, here, using it to confound the Gnostics. In essence, he is saying that these men teach the same thing everywhere, so if the Gnostics were right, why would this be so? This question is equally poignant now, because the Church that Irenaeus is talking about is indisputably Catholic. If there was a falling away, we wouldn't expect this kind of unity, much less one that could appeal to history.

A very forceful statement comes from Ignatius. He said:

"Flee from divisions, as the beginnings of evils. You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the presbytery as you would the apostles; rspect the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. Wherever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as whereever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid" (Ignatius to the Smyrnians 9).

This man I have mentioned before, is the disciple of John. He wrote it in simple matter-of-fact instructions, just as we'd read in Paul. He simply assumed this to be true, and he did this from Ephesus all the way to Rome.

I will close with proof on how they worshipped.
 

No*s

Captain Obvious
How did the Early Christians worship? They worshipped like Catholics. You and I both know the passages on the Eucharist. However, these same men spoke on the Eucharist. The Didache (first century) prescribes a ritual prayer for it (amongst many other ceremonies the book prescribes).

The same Ignatius I mentioned teaches on the Eucharist (linking it to unity) as follows:

"Stay away from the evil plants, which are not cultivated by Jesus Christ, because they are not the Father's planting. Not that I found any division among you: instead, I found that there had been a purification. For all those who belong to God and Jesus Christ are with the bishop, and all those who repent and enter into the unity of the church will belong to God, that they may be living in accordance with Jesus Christ. Do not be misled, my brothers: if anyone follows a schismatic, he will not inhereit the kingdom of God. If anyone holds to alien views, he disassociates himself from the Passion. Take care, therefore, to participate in one Eucharist (for there is one flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup which leads to unity through his blood; there is one alter, just as there is one bishop, together with the presbytery and the deacons, my fellow servants), in order that wahatever you do, you do in accordance with God." (Ign. to the Phil. 3-4)

I will close my evidences with Justin Martyr's description of Christian worship:

"But we, after we have thus washed him who has been convinced and assented to our teaching, bring him to the place where those who are called brethren and assembled, in order that we may offer hearty prayers in common for ourselves and for the baptized person...Having ended the prayers, we salute one another with a kiss. There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen...And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion...For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished , i sthe flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh" (Justin Martyr 1st Apology 65-66).

Now, when I read the words of the Gospels and Paul, they harmonize with their teachings. However, they do not harmonize with the non-denom approach, Sola Scriptura, the denial of the Eucharist, or many other things. The Early Church worshipped as Catholic, and they were united, both east and west. Even in the fourth century the Church as far away as India worshipped and believed the same. This sort of thing does not happen by accident, and no power could uniformly corrupt the whole Church. The bishop of Rome couldn't wield that power if he wanted to; persecution and sheer geographic distance forbade it. The Roman Emperor didn't have that power. Indeed, Rome was defeated by Christianity, not the other way around. I think the above conclusively shows that the Church of the first and second centuries was Catholic.

I did not use Scripture, because you've heard all the arguments and already think you have a good interpretation. However, you haven't read these men. If you think this doesn't prove my point, then please, supply one author in the Early Church who teaches what you teach. We can all use Scripture to support what we believe, but when we require that we subject our interpretations to history also, it raises the bar a little.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Lest there be ANY doubt about what you said:

No*s said:
Your quote from II Timothy is good, but it fails on a couple of points.
The scripture didn't fail. You may not have understood it, you may not follow it, you may twist it's meaning, but it does not fail. Let's look at the scripture again.

II Timothy 3:17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Now you have claimed that I have defined "thourough" as "only". Well the word I see is thouroughly, and the web defines it as such:
  1. Exhaustively complete: a thorough search.
  2. Painstakingly accurate or careful: thorough research.
  3. Absolute; utter: a thorough pleasure.
So take your pick, I am cool with any of those. I don't need to hide behind the Greek on this one, as the translators have done a pretty good job with exartizo, though I might have used "completely" instead. Consequently, if they are able to make me COMPLETELY READY for every good work, what else do I need? Nada.

As for refering to "catholic" as a noun or pronoun. Mea culpa. My apologies for using "pronoun" instead of "adjective" which is what I really meant. As it is you proved my point... the good bishop used it as an adjective. He was not part of the Universal church, but the universal Church. Today the word "Catholic" is used as a NOUN. It has indeed become a sect as the Catholics have pulled away from the true Church. (Note that "true" has been used as an adjective here and NOT a noun).

Since you brought up Galations, let's take a look.

Galations 5:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

You are constantly quoting men who are adding to the scriptures. Can you see how that FLYS in the face of this scripture. A couple points... these Galations are in the first Century and they are ALREADY way off track. Men do that! They put their ideas forth as equal to or better than scripture. Why? PRIDE. Go check out Adam in the garden. Consequently, it is only reasonable and prudent to look upon anything after this as corrupt and tainted. Don't accept anything but the original. Not even the first copy.

Do you believe John wrote everything he believed in three very short epistles, one Gospel, and the book of Revelation?
Of course not. But the books were not about John's beliefs. They were what God wanted to be revealed to us. God used some of Peter's writings, some from John, a lot from Paul, also some other apostles and possibly some we will never know about until we get to heaven. It doesn't matter who or how that they came together... for it was God's will and not man's that they exist today. God wishes no man to perish, so he has provided ALL that ANYONE needs to believe. Unbelief is not God's fault. All you need is an eensy teensy tiny bit of faith... about like a mustard seed... to move all of the spiritual mountains that need to be moved.
 
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