Baptism: How necessary is it?

metis said:

There are many words typically that can relate to any other word, and in the case of Catholic theology, "veneration" (respect) of a saint or a statue is acceptable but "worship" is not. I would suggest that the same is true of the Bible itself, namely that we and Protestants and Orthodox tend to "venerate" the "Word of God" but neither of these teaches that we should "worship" it.

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But we don't pray to the Bible and Catholics do pray to statues of saints and statues of Mary, and carry around statuettes of saints for protection. That's more than veneration/respect.

e.r.m. said:

...and Catholics do pray to statues of saints and statues of Mary, and carry around statuettes of saints for protection.

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That is a blatant lie, and if you'd bother to get beyond your own bigotry and actually do some homework you would at least cognitively know this. For starters, maybe have the basic decency to look it up in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which you can find here: Catechism of the Catholic Church

Or maybe read this:
“Catholics worship statues!” People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them” (Ex. 20:4–5).

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues...

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas... -- Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Have you no shame whatsoever whereas you can post your lies over and over again? Maybe consider switching denominations as the one you're now in doesn't seem to be teaching you much when it comes to basic Christian morality.

metis said:

And, as Catholics, we do not worship icons nor statues.

Secondly, halacha (Jewish Law), is not a requirement for Gentiles, which the churches mostly have, thus the prohibition of making such things does not apply.

Therefore, the real issue within Christianity is worship, not the making of an icon or a statue.

BTW, in front of the Knesset there's a three-dimensional icon of a lion that had been found in the remnants of an ancient synagogue that was destroyed, which you might want to think about a bit. By chance, did you see it there? Sorta shocked me when I did, but the interpretation of the rules of such appear to have been less stringent back then.

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I said icons are reminders and aren't worshiped. When did Rome decide only 9 of the decalogue were valid, and how did they come to decide such?

metis said:

That is a blatant lie, and if you'd bother to get beyond your own bigotry and actually do some homework you would at least cognitively know this. For starters, maybe have the basic decency to look it up in the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", which you can find here: Catechism of the Catholic Church

Or maybe read this:
“Catholics worship statues!” People still make this ridiculous claim. Because Catholics have statues in their churches, goes the accusation, they are violating God’s commandment: “You shall not make for yourself a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow down to them or serve them” (Ex. 20:4–5).

It is right to warn people against the sin of idolatry when they are committing it. But calling Catholics idolaters because they have images of Christ and the saints is based on misunderstanding or ignorance of what the Bible says about the purpose and uses (both good and bad) of statues...

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas... -- Do Catholics Worship Statues?

Have you no shame whatsoever whereas you can post your lies over and over again? Maybe consider switching denominations as the one you're now in doesn't seem to be teaching you much when it comes to basic Christian morality.

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Well I'm glad at least on the books that praying to statues and such is frowned upon, however, what I speak is not lies. I know someone who had witnessed others praying to statues of various saints. So in practice, it has happened.

BilliardsBall said:

I said icons are reminders and aren't worshiped.

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And I said that we Catholics are taught by the Church that were are not to worship icons, statues, or any other object or person.

BilliardsBall said:

When did Rome decide only 9 of the decalogue were valid, and how did they come to decide such?

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When did you start telling lies as if they were the truth? When did you decide that bigotry was your thing and that ignoring Paul's warning of not causing divisions amongst the flock could be ignored? When did you decide that dishonesty is all fine & dandy as long as it fits into your own anti-Catholic bigotry? I grew up being taught that same bigotry and found out through study that it was all a lie-- too bad you haven't done that as of yet.

Maybe you should actually consider converting to what Jesus actually taught and, fortunately, most churches today actually do teach that such bigotry is blatantly immoral. Maybe look into joining one of them that actually teaches Truth and honesty. I provided you with more than enough information to show the actual Catholic teachings on this with my links, and yet you continue to repeat your lies.

II Corinthians 6[14] says "Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness?". So, I will be sharply reducing any more discussions with you unless you decide that Jesus' teachings to "love one another as I have loved you" and telling the Truth are of utmost importance.

Maybe pray on what you're doing and why you are doing it because there appears to be a serious disconnect between what you say you believe and how you act here.

e.r.m. said:

Well I'm glad at least on the books that praying to statues and such is frowned upon, however, what I speak is not lies. I know someone who lived in a Catholic convent for a year as a child, and remembers being directed to pray to a statue of the virgin Mary and saw others praying to statues of various saints. So in practice, it has happened. Did the leaders of this convent do so in defiance of the catechism?

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We may pray through Mary and the saints, but the end product of the prayer must be God. This concept is ancient as it's in the "Apostle's Creed" that most churches use, whereas it says "...the communion of saints"...".

OTOH, if you don't agree with that, fine, then don't maybe do it, but at least have the decency to recognize that we have the right of our own discernment on this.

BilliardsBall said:

Salvation comes via trusting Christ, in over 150 NT verses alone.

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I would hope you would have answered the question first before moving forward with your belief on how one is saved, such as "No, I have never seen a scripture expressing the sentiment baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific., but salvation comes via..."
I believe it's always significant when someone makes a strong doctrinal claim without a direct scripture reference, and also doesn't stop to acknowledge that they don't have one. That's a double confirmation for me that the person who made said claim, did not get it from scripture, but from somewhere else. So until such scripture is provided, we can move ahead knowing that, baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific., is not Biblical.

Salvation does not come from/there are zero verses re:

+ admitting sinfulness

+ asking forgiveness for sins

+ confessing with one’s mouth*

+ giving Jesus one’s life

+ Jesus in the heart

+ making Jesus Lord

+ prayer

+ sorrow for sin

+ the “sinner’s prayer”

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You part from many Southern evangelicals in the above edited areas. But I have heard this other evangelical school of thought as well.

On the following points where you said "Salvation does not come from", you are right as salvation ultimately comes from the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. How one accesses salvation is another matter to be discussed. There are verses for that on some of these.

+ baptism - Acts 2:38-39, Romans 6:4-7, Acts 22:16, etc. You've probably heard the rest.

+ confessing with one’s mouth/making Jesus Lord -Romans 10:9-10

+ repentance - Acts 3:19

Saying Jesus is Lord, (confessing) refers to Jewish people testifying that Jesus is Messiah. Romans 10:8-9, in context, refers to Jewish people confronted with the gospel.

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I don't know, context doesn't seem to support that he's referring only to Jewish people.
Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here Paul is speaking to disciples "about" the Israelites.

Romans 10:1-2 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. [2] For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

And Paul tells them what he's teaching is for all, no difference between Jew and Gentile.
Romans 10:11-13 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” [12] For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile---the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, [13] for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Just doesn't seem that way.

Assemblies of God ARE evangelical. What are you asking?

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Ok.

Jewish believers in general tend to place a very high value on being fundamental to scripture--so the excesses of Pentecostals (where they disobey Bible doctrine regulating gifts) is distasteful to us.

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I'm glad to hear that Jewish believers tend to place a very high value on being fundamental to scripture. That has been my understanding with Jews as well. It sounds to me then that the Jews to whom you refer that believe in Jesus are drawn to evangelicalism due to both their rejection of certain elements from Rome and also them appearing to follow scripture the closest. Am I understanding right or wrong?

e.r.m. said:

I'm glad to hear that Jewish believers tend to place a very high value on being fundamental to scripture. That has been my understanding with Jews as well.

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Well, let me just say that if a Jew takes a literalist approach to the Tanakh, then they wouldn't become a Christian. If one has a doubt about that, they can take it over to Judaism DIR for the reasons why.

As for myself, I prefer not get into that.

metis said:

We may pray through Mary and the saints, but the end product of the prayer must be God. This concept is ancient as it's in the "Apostle's Creed" that most churches use, whereas it says "...the communion of saints"...".

OTOH, if you don't agree with that, fine, then don't maybe do it, but at least have the decency to recognize that we have the right of our own discernment on this.

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I don't cast doubt on your assertion that you have the right of your own discernment on this. Just saying it appears that not every Catholic leader throughout history has followed this playbook.

metis said:

Well, let me just say that if a Jew takes a literalist approach to the Tanakh, then they wouldn't become a Christian. If one has a doubt about that, they can take it over to Judaism DIR for the reasons why.

As for myself, I prefer not get into that.

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No problem.

e.r.m. said:

I don't cast doubt on your assertation that you have the right of your own discernment on this. Just saying it appears that not every Catholic leader follows this playbook.

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Any denomination's teachings are not always going to be followed by all the congregants, nor all the leaders. Even the leaders within the Church have some leeway when it comes to personal discernment-- but only to a point if they are in their teaching mode.

metis said:

Any denomination's teachings are not always going to be followed by all the congregants, nor all the leaders. Even the leaders within the Church have some leeway when it comes to personal discernment-- but only to a point if they are in their teaching mode.

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Are you acknowledging it's possible that some regions on earth and at some points in history, and even now some Catholic leaders somewhere may be teaching praying to (and not through) the saints and Mary?

David J said:

Thanks for asking this.

I was indoctrinated in the Church of Christ. They strictly believed in full water baptism. When I joined their sect, I had to wear some sort of gown and be submerged in a swimming pool. This was back in the 1990s.

They cling onto Acts 2:38 and other verses.

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Thanks for sharing your experiences. I grew up Presbyterian and was baptised as an infant. In my early 20s I reconnected with the Christian Faith I had grown up with and experienced a full immersion baptism similar to what you describe. A few years later I became a Baha’i which affirmed my Christian Faith while acknowledging the spiritual origins of other faiths. Through this thread I was hoping to make better sense of the ritual of baptism.

adrian009 said:

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I grew up Presbyterian and was baptised as an infant. In my early 20s I reconnected with the Christian Faith I had grown up with and experienced a full immersion baptism similar to what you describe. A few years later I became a Baha’i which affirmed my Christian Faith while acknowledging the spiritual origins of other faiths. Through this thread I was hoping to make better sense of the ritual of baptism.

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I had read on the history of Baha'i. They seem to be a Muslim equivalent of "Christian" Universalism. Is that your impression?
Had you studied the NT to see its teaching on baptism?

e.r.m. said:

I had read on the history of Baha'i. They seem to be a Muslim equivalent of "Christian" Universalism. Is that your impression?
Had you studied the NT to see its teaching on baptism?

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I’ve been a Baha’i for nearly 30 years. The Baha’i Faith is certainly a universalist religion but then again so is Christianity and Islam at its heart IMHO. The Baha’i Faith emerged from Islam as Christianity emerged from Judaism as not just a sect but with a new Revelation from God that built on what had gone before. So in that sense it’s not a branch of Islam but an independent religion.

adrian009 said:

I’ve been a Baha’i for nearly 30 years. The Baha’i Faith is certainly a universalist religion but then again so is Christianity and Islam at its heart IMHO. The Baha’i Faith emerged from Islam as Christianity emerged from Judaism as not just a sect but with a new Revelation from God that built on what had gone before. So in that sense it’s not a branch of Islam but an independent religion.

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Thank you for the description. I had not understood that parallel about a new Revelation from God that built on what had gone before. It's a good parallel. I first ran into Baha'i folk around 1988. They were very nice people. There also used to be a Baha'i billboard saying "Unity is not just possible, it's inevitable." I take exception with one thing you said. Although there are universalist elements within Christendom, they are fringe. Christianity is not universalist at its heart, like Baha'i is.

e.r.m. said:

Thank you for the description. I had not understood that parallel about a new Revelation from God that built on what had gone before. It's a good parallel. I first ran into Baha'i folk around 1988. They were very nice people. There also used to be a Baha'i billboard saying "Unity is not just possible, it's inevitable." I take exception with one thing you said. Although there are universalist elements within Christendom, they are fringe. Christianity is not universalist at its heart, like Baha'i is.

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The phrase was ‘Peace is not only possible but inevitable’ from a document titled ‘Promise of World Peace’ distributed to world leaders in 1985.

I appreciate your view that Christianity is not a universalist religion though when I consider the Person of Christ and what He had to say about love, for me it is.

adrian009 said:

The phrase was ‘Peace is not only possible but inevitable’ from a document titled ‘Promise of World Peace’ distributed to world leaders in 1985.

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Thank you for correcting me on that. After 30 or so years, I'm not surprised I got it wrong.

I appreciate your view that Christianity is not a universalist religion though when I consider the Person of Christ and what He had to say about love, for me it is.

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He is indeed big on love.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Thank you for helping me understand Baha'i better.

e.r.m. said:

Thank you for correcting me on that. After 30 or so years, I'm not surprised I got it wrong.

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The Baha’i Faith is not the religion you practice so you did well to remember as much as you did.

e.r.m. said:

He is indeed big on love.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

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That’s an essential part of God’s Love for humanity. I had also considered Jesus response to the question of the greatest commandment where He refers to Deuteronomy 6:5 when He says:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36-40

When asks who is your neighbour He told the story of the Good Samaritan, a story about reaching across all boundaries, especially those around religion.

e.r.m. said:

Thank you for helping me understand Baha'i better.

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You’re welcome. The purpose of this forum is create an environment where peoples of diverse faiths can have fellowship and learn from each other.

e.r.m. said:

Are you acknowledging it's possible that some regions on earth and at some points in history, and even now some Catholic leaders somewhere may be teaching praying to (and not through) the saints and Mary?

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Quite possibly, maybe even probably, but if they do as such they are going against Canon Law. No church, including the Catholic Church, has total control over its leaders, nor should they, imo. This isn't supposed to be like the Gestapo. Do you disagree?