Baptism: How necessary is it?

[e.r.m.]

If verses said "baptism is identification" we would both believe it without further explanation.

I think we already settled that one. I am asking if you know of any scripture saying: baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific.
I myself have never seen a verse expressing this sentiment, have you?

Do you believe baptism is salvific or that Jesus saves?

My answer is yes, as baptism in His name comes from Him and was His idea. The question isn't whether it's Jesus or baptism that saves (as if the two were opposed to each other), but at what point He saves.

You have much forbearance from me. I'm not upset, and again, many fellow Jewish believers run fundamentalist/evangelical because Rome and her children (idols, paganism) seem obvious to us based on our iconoclastic Jewish background.

Thank you for the forbearance. Any thoughts as to what led you and your fellow Jewish believers to choose fundamentalist/evangelical over other groups who also reject Rome and her children (idols, paganism), Pentecostal, Church of God, Assemblies of God, etc.?

 

[e.r.m.]

Apparently telling the Truth isn't important to your church, but it certainly is in my Church. We don't make or worship idols, nor do we celebrate any "pagan" festivals or honor any "pagans".

Here's the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", so maybe actually spend some time looking things up instead of spewing falsehoods: Catechism of the Catholic Church

I don't think he's saying Catholics celebrate any "pagan" festivals or honor any "pagans", it would be my guess that he's saying (and he can correct me if I'm wrong) the pagan influences that the Catholic Church holds onto, such as the title Pontifex Maximus and the monstrance.

As far as the idols go, I'm pretty sure it's all those statues and statuettes.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Apparently telling the Truth isn't important to your church, but it certainly is in my Church. We don't make or worship idols, nor do we celebrate any "pagan" festivals or honor any "pagans".

Here's the "Catechism of the Catholic Church", so maybe actually spend some time looking things up instead of spewing falsehoods: Catechism of the Catholic Church

Are you familiar with the Catholic iconoclast movements of previous eras? A great many Catholics and Catholic sects spent hundreds of years destroying statues that Rome says "are not idols but remind us of prayer people/prayer needs".

Jesus is God.

A graven image is not to be sculpted of God.

Synagogues lack such images.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think we already settled that one. I am asking if you know of any scripture saying: baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific.
I myself have never seen a verse expressing this sentiment, have you?

My answer is yes, as baptism in His name comes from Him and was His idea. The question isn't whether it's Jesus or baptism that saves (as if the two were opposed to each other), but at what point He saves.

Thank you for the forbearance. Any thoughts as to what led you and your fellow Jewish believers to choose fundamentalist/evangelical over other groups who also reject Rome and her children (idols, paganism), Pentecostal, Church of God, Assemblies of God, etc.?

Salvation comes via trusting Christ, in over 150 NT verses alone. Salvation does not come from/there are zero verses re:

+ admitting sinfulness

+ asking forgiveness for sins

+ attending confession

+ attending mass

+ baptism

+ belief

+ Bible study

+ charitable acts

+ Christian family living

+ church attendance

+ confessing with one’s mouth*

+ faith

+ faithfulness

+ following the sermon on the mount

+ following the “golden rule”(Do Unto Others...)

+ following the ten commandments

+ giving Jesus one’s life

+ good works

+ good behavior

+ infant baptism

+ Jesus in the heart

+ making Jesus Lord

+ obeying pastor/priest

+ observing the law

+ prayer

+ promising to not sin

+ repentance

+ reciting the Lord’s prayer

+ sorrow for sin

+ telling God “sorry”

+ telling God one’s sins

+ the “sinner’s prayer”

+ tithing

+ “trying hard”

+ “turning from sin”

*Saying Jesus is Lord, (confessing) refers to Jewish people testifying that Jesus is Messiah. Romans 10:8-9, in context, refers to Jewish people confronted with the gospel.

**

Assemblies of God ARE evangelical. What are you asking? Jewish believers in general tend to place a very high value on being fundamental to scripture--so the excesses of Pentecostals (where they disobey Bible doctrine regulating gifts) is distasteful to us.

 

[metis]

Are you familiar with the Catholic iconoclast movements of previous eras? A great many Catholics and Catholic sects spent hundreds of years destroying statues that Rome says "are not idols but remind us of prayer people/prayer needs".

Because there was difficulty in the eastern Church under the influence of Islam whereas there was persecution of the Catholic Church that was one factor that led to the Great Schism. That rebellion and persecution was dealing with any image of any living organism that included even paintings.

Jesus is God.

Jesus is of God based on the concept of "essence".

A graven image is not to be sculpted of God.

A "graven image" is never defined in Torah or Tanakh, but what is clear is that no image of any type is to be worshiped. Thus Catholics do not worship any image, and some people confuse "veneration" with "worship"-- they ain't the same.

Synagogues lack such images.

As do mosques. It's part of "building a fence around Torah" and also what's written in the Quran.

Do you have any pictures in your house or pictures in your camera or phone? Many Jews believe those are graven images as well.

Bottom line: It is forbidden under Catholic Canon Law to worship any graven image as that would then constitute idolatry.

 

[e.r.m.]

Because there was difficulty in the eastern Church under the influence of Islam whereas there was persecution of the Catholic Church that was one factor that led to the Great Schism. That rebellion and persecution was dealing with any image of any living organism that included even paintings.

Jesus is of God based on the concept of "essence".

A "graven image" is never defined in Torah or Tanakh, but what is clear is that no image of any type is to be worshiped. Thus Catholics do not worship any image, and some people confuse "veneration" with "worship"-- they ain't the same.

As do mosques. It's part of "building a fence around Torah" and also what's written in the Quran.

Do you have any pictures in your house or pictures in your camera or phone? Many Jews believe those are graven images as well.

Bottom line: It is forbidden under Catholic Canon Law to worship any graven image as that would then constitute idolatry.

Define veneration.
Dictionary.com defines it as

ven·er·a·tion
/ˌvenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. great respect; reverence.
   "the traditional veneration of saints"

With synonyms as:
reverence, respect, worship, adoration, homage, exaltation, adulation, glorification, extolment, idolization, devotion

 

[metis]

Define veneration.
Dictionary.com defines it as

ven·er·a·tion
/ˌvenəˈrāSH(ə)n/
noun

1. great respect; reverence.
   "the traditional veneration of saints"

With synonyms as:
reverence, respect, worship, adoration, homage, exaltation, adulation, glorification, extolment, idolization, devotion

There are many words typically that can relate to any other word, and in the case of Catholic theology, "veneration" (respect) of a saint or a statue is acceptable but "worship" is not. I would suggest that the same is true of the Bible itself, namely that we and Protestants and Orthodox tend to "venerate" the "Word of God" but neither of these teaches that we should "worship" it.

 

[Muffled]

Peter never says that. Only commentators say that.

1Pet 3:21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

 

[Muffled]

In the New Testament, the only announcement expected is preaching the word of God, acknowledging our faith in Christ if asked, and living the life. Matthew 10:32 never refers to a Christian coming out event. We just announce the most recent baptisms at each service, because a public testimony type of event that one has been saved is not expected in the Bible.

I believe it is dangerous not to acknowledge Jesus before men:
Matt 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,

 

[Muffled]

Hypothetical Christian God is true

Exactly "God decides". Arrogant Christians (99% I meet) pretend to be God "talk as if they know what God thinks or approves of (by reading Bible)".
Bible calls this behavior Blasphemy (which should be punished by death). Just do what Bible says, don't pretend to know what God thinks.

Are you one of those Christians?

I believe I am and am 100% certain that you are hearing the Word of God from my writing. It is you who are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit which is one that will not be forgiven if you do not repent.

 

[stvdv]

Hypothetical Christian God is true

Exactly "God decides". Arrogant Christians (99% I meet) pretend to be God "talk as if they know what God thinks or approves of (by reading Bible)".
Bible calls this behavior Blasphemy (which should be punished by death). Just do what Bible says, don't pretend to know what God thinks.

Are you one of those Christians?

I believe I am and am 100% certain that you are hearing the Word of God from my writing.

Your start was nice and humble "I believe I am". That could have meant that you are "not one of those Christians"
But you straightaway took away any doubts saying "I am 100% certain that you are hearing the Word of God from my writing."

You also seem to be a Christian who is "Omniscient" (knows what I hear). So I will direct any questions about God, I get here, to you ... being "God Almighty" Himself

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe it is dangerous not to acknowledge Jesus before men:
Matt 10:32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven,

Didn't I say scriptures expect us to preach the word of God, acknowledge our faith in Christ if asked, and live the life? What other acknowledgement is there in the New Testament?

 

[stvdv]

For someone who doesn't believe in "belittling", and believes in qualifying with IMHumbleO, you use strong language. Is it that certain people deserve to be spoken to in this way, while others don't?

Only if someone imposes something on me, which I know is wrong, I sometimes let them know that only God,being omniscient, knows these things
Imposing spiritual things on others is very rude and insensitive. So, yes ... I just show them, like in a mirror, what they claim ... "Being omniscient"
Someone claiming "I know for a fact that you hear the voice of God through my words" ... this I call "strong language". I just deflected his bomb

"It is you who are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit which is one that will not be forgiven if you do not repent."

 

[e.r.m.]

Only if someone imposes something on me, which I know is wrong, I sometimes let them know that only God,being omniscient, knows these things
Imposing spiritual things on others is very rude and insensitive. So, yes ... I just show them, like in a mirror, what they claim ... "Being omniscient"
Someone claiming "I know for a fact that you hear the voice of God through my words" ... this I call "strong language". I just deflected his bomb

"It is you who are blaspheming against the Holy Spirit which is one that will not be forgiven if you do not repent."

Although what he said is also strong, it doesn't come across like mirroring.

 

[stvdv]

Although what he said is also strong, it doesn't come across like mirroring.

He claimed (100% sure) to know, what I think, being thousands of miles away, never met me even once
Hence I told him that he must be omniscient.

 

[e.r.m.]

He claimed (100% sure) to know, what I think, being thousands of miles away, never met me even once
Hence I told him that he must be omniscient.

He shouldn't have claimed 100%.

 

[stvdv]

He shouldn't have claimed 100%.

Thanks.
If he had claimed to be sure for 99.99% "knowing my mind", I would not reply
That would have meant that he admitted that there is 0.01% chance he is 100% wrong
To me it's all about humbleness, esp. when others are making claims about my thoughts

 

[BilliardsBall]

Because there was difficulty in the eastern Church under the influence of Islam whereas there was persecution of the Catholic Church that was one factor that led to the Great Schism. That rebellion and persecution was dealing with any image of any living organism that included even paintings.

Jesus is of God based on the concept of "essence".

A "graven image" is never defined in Torah or Tanakh, but what is clear is that no image of any type is to be worshiped. Thus Catholics do not worship any image, and some people confuse "veneration" with "worship"-- they ain't the same.

As do mosques. It's part of "building a fence around Torah" and also what's written in the Quran.

Do you have any pictures in your house or pictures in your camera or phone? Many Jews believe those are graven images as well.

Bottom line: It is forbidden under Catholic Canon Law to worship any graven image as that would then constitute idolatry.

Thanks--I understand the apologetic that icons put us in mind of prayer needs and are not worshipped.

But the Bible prohibition is against their creation, not their worship.

 

[David J]

Baptism appears to be a uniquely Christian practice, and part of the process of admission into the Christian Faith. It involves the use of water. The synoptic gospels recount Jesus being baptised by John the Baptist (Matthew 3:16, Mark 1:9-10. Luke 3:21). It is considered a sacrament in most Churches. The ritual can involve sprinkling of water on the head or full immersion. Water can be a symbol of purity.

Baptism - Wikipedia

To what extent is baptism a necessary part of the Christian Faith? What purpose does baptism serve and is its purpose unique to the Christian Faith?

Perhaps its function in part is integral to other religions. Muslims and Baha'is for example have ablutions where they wash certain parts of their body in prayer before turning to their respective Qiblih each day in prayer.

Thanks for asking this.

I was indoctrinated in the Church of Christ. They strictly believed in full water baptism. When I joined their sect, I had to wear some sort of gown and be submerged in a swimming pool. This was back in the 1990s.

They cling onto Acts 2:38 and other verses.

 

[metis]

Thanks--I understand the apologetic that icons put us in mind of prayer needs and are not worshipped.

But the Bible prohibition is against their creation, not their worship.

And, as Catholics, we do not worship icons nor statues.

Secondly, halacha (Jewish Law), is not a requirement for Gentiles, which the churches mostly have, thus the prohibition of making such things does not apply.

Therefore, the real issue within Christianity is worship, not the making of an icon or a statue.

BTW, in front of the Knesset there's a three-dimensional icon of a lion that had been found in the remnants of an ancient synagogue that was destroyed, which you might want to think about a bit. By chance, did you see it there? Sorta shocked me when I did, but the interpretation of the rules of such appear to have been less stringent back then.