Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

Hockeycowboy · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
You should have been disgusted. Interestingly, of the many I have known, I can´t imagine one of them making a statement like that.

I pinned them down on this issue once. I asked a couple of them if they ate meat, they said yes. I asked them if they bought kosher meat exclusively, they said no.

Of course the conclusion was that if an animal is not slaughtered in the kosher manner, there will be residual blood in the meat.

My question, if you knowingly eat meat with blood in it, how can someone receiving blood to save their life be criticized ? ( I had recently got out of the hospital, where I received 6 pints of blood over a period of 35 days)

There response was quite good I thought. First, they said no one should criticize anyone for having blood transfusions. Further, they said they interpret the the command in the NT to avoid blood to include blood transfusions.

Finally, they said they wished I hadn´t brought up the meat in the supermarket !

We all laughed.

EDITED:
I'm glad you have had pleasant experiences!

You are correct, about residual blood in meat. Jehovah knows that. But Jehovah God still lets His people eat meat.

And yet, His command is there. I guess a reasonable effort should be made to drain the blood, eh?

In line with this, We avoid the 4 main components of blood - plasma, RBC's, WBC's, and platelets. (They are removed from meat.)
However, accepting blood fractions is a personal matter.

Take care.

shmogie · Jun 30, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
I'm glad you have had pleasant experiences!

You are correct, about residual blood in meat. But yet, God still made that command.
So, we must try to remove as much as we can.

In line with this, We avoid the 4 main components of blood - plasma, RBC's, WBC's, and platelets. (They are removed from meat.)
However, accepting blood fractions is a personal matter.

I don´t think the removal of blood from market bought meat is practiced by some of your brothers and sisters. At least the ones I have known didn´t do it.

Faithofchristian · Jun 30, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
When I was still a young man, here in the 80's, I totally lost any belief in God.
I did however decide to try to learn from all religions and never turned anyone away when they by accident, or by visits crossed my path.
Well, I was visited by many religious sects, but in this thread we will discuss a question I asked the Watchtower Tract and Bible society, or as better known, the Jehovah Witnesses.
By accident I stay opposite the biggest printing operations in the World, the one in South Africa, Roodepoort.

The Question:
What of a person goes to heaven?
As I went to Bible studies with JW's, I learned the following "pillars of JW" if I may call it as such.
1. No human has a Spirit living within themself. We are only Flesh and Blood, with a breath of life that keeps us alive like a clockwork. This breath of life returns to God when we die, but it is not a"Spirit" in the sense of an immortal person.
2. No Flesh and Blood can enter heaven. this is impossible, but they remain in the grave.
3. There are 2 types of people in the ressurection, the one typw is 144000 elect that will go to heaven, and the rest are JW's who will live on the Earth for a thousand years.

My question is, If these ellect dont have a living immortal spirit living in their bodies, what will go to heaven?
Now, JW's tried to answer me numerous times as they came knocking on my door, and every time they told me that they will come back to me and they will answer my question.
many so called "Elders" did visit me, and the conversation goes like this.

Look, you will not go to heaven, you will stay here on earth in the milenium.

But I dont want to keep on living for a mere 1 000 years of eternity, I want it all, I want to live with God in heaven!

Only the Ellect 144000 will go there.

OK, so what of them will go to heaven? I mean, their Flesh and Blood is in the grave, and with no Spirit, what goes to heaven?

No, God will recreate them as they were here on earth when they were living!

Wait, are you telling that God will make some other beings representing His followers he had here on Earth?

No, God will take the memories of these people, and that is what will enter heaven!

OK, so the memories is immortal and my mind will then get a new body, this means that inside of me I have an immortal mind, can we not say this is the Spirit that can not die but after death will continue to live!

No, this is not what I say, We definately do not have anything inside of us that is immortal.

OK, so what of me sitting here NOW will go to heaven? I mean, If there is at least a single cell, or hair that will go to God, and I will be concious about attaining salvation, why bother? If there is nothing of me here on Earth that will go to heaven, why even worship God? I can just as well start to steal and kill to have a better life while I am here!

Can I get someone to answer you? We have excelent Bible teachers that knows mort than I.

Please do.

So, lets' see if I can get an answer after +- 40 years?

JW will never give you a straight,
Like alot of other religions that have rewritten the bible to support their man made teachings.
Ask JW to explain to you, what does the grave represents.

Seeing that JW say there is no spirit,
My question to JW,
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

The soul and spirit being one and the same thing.
For the JW to be right, that there is no spirit, then how is it Jesus Christ said that God will destroy both body and soul
( spirit) in hell.

Is it any wonder why Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's
In Matthew 15:7-9
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you go, Jesus Christ condemning the teachings of man's.

If there is no spirit according to JW, then what is God destroying in hell ?

shmogie · Jun 30, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
JW will never give you a straight,
Like alot of other religions that have rewritten the bible to support their man made teachings.
Ask JW to explain to you, what does the grave represents.

Seeing that JW say there is no spirit,
My question to JW,
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

The soul and spirit being one and the same thing.
For the JW to be right, that there is no spirit, then how is it Jesus Christ said that God will destroy both body and soul
( spirit) in hell.

Is it any wonder why Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's
In Matthew 15:7-9
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you go, Jesus Christ condemning the teachings of man's.

If there is no spirit according to JW, then what is God destroying in hell ?

What makes you think JWś believe there is no spirit ?

SA Huguenot · Jun 30, 2019

Deeje said:
Wow...its taken 40 years to get an answer?

Well here goes.....

Paul answered this quite simply....
If you understand the resurrection, then it means a return to life. One who was dead is raised to life again.....like Lazarus for example. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? In heaven? The spirit realm? anywhere? Nope. Jesus said Lazarus was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) This is in agreement with the Jewish belief that the dead were unconscious, inactive in "sheol" (the grave), awaiting a resurrection. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)

Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.....
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

So what is Paul saying about the dead? They "sleep", just as Jesus said about Lazarus. There is no resurrection of anyone until Christ's return. When Christ was to come again, he would raise those of the elect "first". These, Paul said would be raised in the same kind of body that Jesus was...a spiritual body.

"It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:44-45)

Now is that hard to understand? Seriously? The only thing that gets in the way of the truth is the false assumption that we have an immortal soul. The Bible teaches no such thing.

What a joy to teach someone who doesn't want to know what God's word says. You want the Bible to say what you want to believe?....good luck with that. From your list here it is very apparent that you heard very little of what my brothers tried to teach you. I guess if you have your fingers in your ears that is not surprising.

No one can volunteer to go to heaven. Its not our choice. It is God who anoints the elect. He gives them a "heavenly calling" by his spirit. (Hebrews 3:1; Romans 8:16-17)

The resurrection takes place in two distinct stages as it mentions also in Revelation. Those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven (the 144,000) will be resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6) Since this did not happen before Christ's return, then all had slept peacefully in their graves since the first century.

Once the Kingdom has "come" and the earth is cleansed, then Jesus will resurrect the dead who are still in their graves. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls them out of their tombs, not from the spirit realm.
These will be subjects of the heavenly rulers. Those rulers are also priests, which mean that they needs sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. No one who goes to heaven is still a sinner. Their sinful flesh is no more. Their resurrection to heavenly life is as glorious immortal spirit beings, like their Lord Jesus.

How does God know who all these people are so as to remember them all?

Isaiah 40:26...
“Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.
Who has created these things?

It is the One who brings out their army by number;
He calls them all by name."

Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,
Not one of them is missing."

Imagine! How many stars are there in the millions of galaxies in the universe? Yet God remember all their names.
If he can remember the names of billions of impersonal stars, would he have a problem remembering the personalities of all the humans who have lived and died on this small planet?....piece of cake. He simply recreates the whole person...memories and all. You think that the Creator can't do that?

The 1,000 years of Kingdom rule is to bring all redeemed mankind to the final test which will see satan briefly released from his prison to again tempt mankind into sin. (Revelation 20:1-3) Those who pass that final test will have their names written in the book of life permanently. They will remain on earth forever just as God purposed from the beginning. Everlasting life is not the same as immortality.

Try and read the scriptures very carefully so that you may cross those silly things off your list....OK?

So what are you saying.
Dont worry, God can do anything.
As long as it suits your dogma.
If you want to reason with such an argument, why cant God take my living spirit to heaven?
Is God not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
But they are dead!
God is not God of the dead, but the living!
Therefore Jesus knew they were still alive as spirit!
Look at Lazarus and the rich man who woke up in the kingdom of death, they were talking, feeling, and begging.
Yet the JW's say this is a parabelle. Good what does it then mean?
This parrable means only one thing, the dead body cant hear or feel, but the spirit is in Gehenna alive, either in the paradise compartment, or in the Hell area.

Secondly, if you claim that God sort of keeps our minds or memories such as one does software on a memory stick, it means this is something that is now alive in me.
It means it is something living now that can not die, and will enter heaven.

Great, so you just described my spirit.

If not, and you say God will recteate what I am now, it simply means something else will enter heaven.
YOUR THEORISTIC GOD THEN WILL NEVER TAKE ANY LIVING BEING IN HEAVEN WITH HIM AND WE ARE ALL LOST TO DIE TO NEVER RISE AGAIN.

shmogie · Jun 30, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
So what are you saying.
Dont worry, God can do anything.
As long as it suits your dogma.
If you want to reason with such an argument, why cant God take my living spirit to heaven?
Is God not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
But they are dead!
God is not God of the dead, but the living!
Therefore Jesus knew they were still alive as spirit!
Look at Lazarus and the rich man who woke up in the kingdom of death, they were talking, feeling, and begging.
Yet the JW's say this is a parabelle. Good what does it then mean?
This parrable means only one thing, the dead body cant hear or feel, but the spirit is in Gehenna alive, either in the paradise compartment, or in the Hell area.

Secondly, if you claim that God sort of keeps our minds or memories such as one does software on a memory stick, it means this is something that is now alive in me.
It means it is something living now that can not die, and will enter heaven.

Great, so you just described my spirit.

If not, and you say God will recteate what I am now, it simply means something else will enter heaven.
YOUR THEORISTIC GOD THEN WILL NEVER TAKE ANY LIVING BEING IN HEAVEN WITH HIM AND WE ARE ALL LOST TO DIE TO NEVER RISE AGAIN.

Information isn´t alive, it is simply information, it knows nothing, perceives nothing, it has no mechanism for doing so.

danieldemol · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
Information isn´t alive, it is simply information, it knows nothing, perceives nothing, it has no mechanism for doing so.

Suppose we replace the word “spirit” with “robot”. So God copies your memories onto the robot, then destroys you physically.

If no part of you survives, you haven’t been resurrected as a robot. You have been replaced by a robot with a copy of your memories and all is lost.
Same with the JW spirit model, if “you” aren’t transferred, just a copy of your knowledge/memories are given to the spirit, you haven’t been resurrected, you’ve been replaced by a spirit with a copy of your memories and haven’t lived on.

In the spirit model, you are a spirit from the beginning wearing bodily clothes, all that is lost is the human body - you survive.

I kind of think that might be what SA is getting at here.

Deeje · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
You should have been disgusted. Interestingly, of the many I have known, I can´t imagine one of them making a statement like that.

I'm glad you said that.....because the attitude of the poster to whom you are responding is want to be negative about everything associated with God or the Bible and is very hostile to JW's. We have only one side of that story and quite frankly, I can't imagine any of my brothers saying something Iike that either. Our decision not to have blood transfusions is ours, it's not something we would force on others. I am wondering if the story is actually retold with any accuracy, or just hatefully distorted?

I pinned them down on this issue once. I asked a couple of them if they ate meat, they said yes. I asked them if they bought kosher meat exclusively, they said no.

Of course the conclusion was that if an animal is not slaughtered in the kosher manner, there will be residual blood in the meat.

My question, if you knowingly eat meat with blood in it, how can someone receiving blood to save their life be criticized ?

That is the point. The rules regarding the slaughter of animals in abattoirs, usually requires the bleeding necessary to meet the requirements of God's law. We have to understand that the Pharisees took God's law to a ridiculous degree, meaning that Kosher prepared food goes way beyond any requirement ever outlined in God's law. Jesus criticised the Pharisees for this very thing.

As long as the animal's blood was poured out on the ground, symbolically returning the animal's life to God, then that is all that was necessary. The law was not to consume blood as such. It emphasised its sacredness to God, representing the life of the creature. Used in accord with God's law, it atoned for sin.

( I had recently got out of the hospital, where I received 6 pints of blood over a period of 35 days)

I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully you are recovering well.
I am wondering though, if a JW with the same medical situation was to go through it without blood and made a better recovery, would you change your mind? It is because of this that many hospitals are now going "bloodless". The success rate among JW's undergoing procedures routinely requiring blood, was so good that many doctors have completely re-evaluated their position on the use of autologous blood transfusions. Our personal experience is that we recover better without them.
Wouldn't we expect a law of God to be beneficial?

There response was quite good I thought. First, they said no one should criticize anyone for having blood transfusions. Further, they said they interpret the the command in the NT to avoid blood to include blood transfusions.

Avoiding the consumption of blood is reiterated in scripture right from the time God first gave man permission to eat animal flesh. He told Noah not to consume the blood. He repeated the command in Israel's law and it was repeated again as a "necessary" thing for Christians.....so to God it is very important.

The manner of consumption is not important at all. When a person cannot eat by mouth, they are often fed intravenously. So to us consuming blood through transfusion is still technically "eating" it.

Finally, they said they wished I hadn´t brought up the meat in the supermarket !

We all laughed.

I'm glad they had a sense of humour......contrary to popular belief, we are human after all.

Deeje · Jun 30, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
So what are you saying.
Dont worry, God can do anything.
As long as it suits your dogma.
If you want to reason with such an argument, why cant God take my living spirit to heaven?
Is God not the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?
But they are dead!
God is not God of the dead, but the living!
Therefore Jesus knew they were still alive as spirit!
Look at Lazarus and the rich man who woke up in the kingdom of death, they were talking, feeling, and begging.
Yet the JW's say this is a parabelle. Good what does it then mean?
This parrable means only one thing, the dead body cant hear or feel, but the spirit is in Gehenna alive, either in the paradise compartment, or in the Hell area.

Secondly, if you claim that God sort of keeps our minds or memories such as one does software on a memory stick, it means this is something that is now alive in me.
It means it is something living now that can not die, and will enter heaven.

Great, so you just described my spirit.

If not, and you say God will recteate what I am now, it simply means something else will enter heaven.
YOUR THEORISTIC GOD THEN WILL NEVER TAKE ANY LIVING BEING IN HEAVEN WITH HIM AND WE ARE ALL LOST TO DIE TO NEVER RISE AGAIN.

Oh dear...no wonder no one came back...what was the point?

Believe whatever you wish...

Deeje · Jun 30, 2019

danieldemol said:
If no part of you survives, you haven’t been resurrected as a robot. You have been replaced by a robot with a copy of your memories and all is lost.

The robot analogy is yours, nothing whatever to do with what we believe.
Where was Adam before God created him? He simply did not exist except as a blueprint in the mind of God. He wasn't "given" a soul, but "became" one when God started him breathing. A "soul" in the Hebrew language was a breather, which included animals. The breath the God put into Adam was "spirit". Soul and spirit are two entirely different things but melded into one with the notion of an immortal soul.

Same with the JW spirit model, if “you” aren’t transferred, just a copy of your knowledge/memories are given to the spirit, you haven’t been resurrected, you’ve been replaced by a spirit with a copy of your memories and haven’t lived on.

God does not require a single molecule of your former body in order to recreate you. In the natural scheme of things, cell renewal in the human body is perpetual....every seven years you have a completely new body. Cells have died and been replaced but you are still you. Even as you age and that cell renewal slows down, you are still you, even though you physically are a changed person.

What God creates is a new body and he can restore the memories and personality that made you the unique person you were. Would the Creator promise resurrection if he could not accomplish it? How many times is death referred to as "sleeping"? There is nothing that survives death to go anywhere. When Jesus resurrected Lazarus, he had been dead for 4 days....decomposition had already set in in middle eastern heat. Yet Lazarus came out as his old self with apparently no memory of where he had been. If death is like sleeping, then we have nothing to fear from it. No hell to dread.....

According to Acts 24:15 both the "righteous and unrighteous" are called from the same place.... and the resurrection was yet future.

In the spirit model, you are a spirit from the beginning wearing bodily clothes, all that is lost is the human body - you survive.

The memory of you survives with the Creator.
At death, the Bible says that the spirit of man returns to God. So what is the "spirit" that returns to God? Spirit is the breath....it returns to God inasmuch as only God can restore breath (spirit) to a resurrected body.

Jesus said he would resurrect the dead by calling them out of their graves (John 5:28-29)....this is a return to life on earth for the majority of humankind. It is a restoration of living, breathing, human life where God put us in the first place....right here on earth. It was designed to be our permanent home, not as a training ground for heaven. The paradise we look forward to is like the one Adam and his wife lost. (2Peter 3:13)

Deeje · Jun 30, 2019

Faithofchristian said:
JW will never give you a straight,
Like alot of other religions that have rewritten the bible to support their man made teachings.
Ask JW to explain to you, what does the grave represents.

Seeing that JW say there is no spirit,
My question to JW,
Jesus Christ said in Matthew 10:28
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell"

Easy answer is that Jesus was speaking about "gehenna" which is not "hell". There is no hell. Gehenna is the same as the "lake of fire" in Revelation.....it represents eternal death...not eternal torture.

You will notice that God "destroys" body and soul in this place. What does destroy mean to you?

The soul and spirit being one and the same thing.
For the JW to be right, that there is no spirit, then how is it Jesus Christ said that God will destroy both body and soul
( spirit) in hell.

The soul and the spirit are completely different words with different meanings. They don't mean the same thing at all.
The Bible's formula for life is simple.....
A body + spirit (breath) = a soul.

Again, what does "destroy" mean?

Is it any wonder why Jesus Christ condemned the teachings of man's
In Matthew 15:7-9
7--"You hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"

There you go, Jesus Christ condemning the teachings of man's.

Can I ask you what it is that you are promoting then? Isn't this your version of things? Aren't you a man? :shrug:

If there is no spirit according to JW, then what is God destroying in hell ?

LOL....you still can't see the operative word there, can you? "Destroying"......when something is "destroyed" it has perished, no longer useful for its intended purpose. It can be rebuilt but it is no longer able to serve its function in its destroyed state.

At death, the "spirit" has left the body because the last breath has just been expelled from the lungs. The soul is then dead. (Psalm 146:4) The body is consigned to the grave....a place from which Jesus promises to resurrect the dead. Some will go to heaven to rule with Christ; these are resurrected "first" (Revelation 20:6)....but for the majority, life will be restored to continue on earth, which is where God put us in the beginning. It's not really more complicated than that.

shmogie · Jun 30, 2019

Deeje said:
I'm glad you said that.....because the attitude of the poster to whom you are responding is want to be negative about everything associated with God or the Bible and is very hostile to JW's. We have only one side of that story and quite frankly, I can't imagine any of my brothers saying something Iike that either. Our decision not to have blood transfusions is ours, it's not something we would force on others. I am wondering if the story is actually retold with any accuracy, or just hatefully distorted?

That is the point. The rules regarding the slaughter of animals in abattoirs, usually requires the bleeding necessary to meet the requirements of God's law. We have to understand that the Pharisees took God's law to a ridiculous degree, meaning that Kosher prepared food goes way beyond any requirement ever outlined in God's law. Jesus criticised the Pharisees for this very thing.

As long as the animal's blood was poured out on the ground, symbolically returning the animal's life to God, then that is all that was necessary. The law was not to consume blood as such. It emphasised its sacredness to God, representing the life of the creature. Used in accord with God's law, it atoned for sin.

I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully you are recovering well.
I am wondering though, if a JW with the same medical situation was to go through it without blood and made a better recovery, would you change your mind? It is because of this that many hospitals are now going "bloodless". The success rate among JW's undergoing procedures routinely requiring blood, was so good that many doctors have completely re-evaluated their position on the use of autologous blood transfusions. Our personal experience is that we recover better without them.
Wouldn't we expect a law of God to be beneficial?

Avoiding the consumption of blood is reiterated in scripture right from the time God first gave man permission to eat animal flesh. He told Noah not to consume the blood. He repeated the command in Israel's law and it was repeated again as a "necessary" thing for Christians.....so to God it is very important.

The manner of consumption is not important at all. When a person cannot eat by mouth, they are often fed intravenously. So to us consuming blood through transfusion is still technically "eating"transfusions. Our personal experience is that we recover better without them.
Wouldn't we expect a law of God to be beneficial?

The law of God regarding the killing of food animals is extremely specific. It is so to be sure the blood is removed as far as possible from the animal. It appears cruel to me, but it is what it is,

As I recall the animals throat is cut and while it´s heart is still beating, it hung upside down, the heart pumps much of the blood out before the animal dies, where it continues to drain.

Kosher butchers still followed the law found in Leviticus or Deuteronomy.

Modern butchers kill the animals instantly with a device that fires a bullet into the animals brain. It falls to the floor and is dragged off to be hung. There is no way this process can drain all the blood out of an animal, as it begins infusing into the flesh at death and when it falls to the floor and is dragged away.

Modern butchery does not drain all the blood out of the meat, it is in the flesh.

So, I am sad to tell you that unless you buy Kosher meat, or are a vegetarian, you are eating blood.

Hockeycowboy · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
I don´t think the removal of blood from market bought meat is practiced by some of your brothers and sisters. At least the ones I have known didn´t do it.

Yes, store-bought meat has already been bled... The four basic components have already been removed.

shmogie · Jun 30, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
Yes, store-bought meat has already been bled... The four basic components have already been removed.

No, I am sorry but you are wrong. It is bled by hanging after death, and after it has been in a horizontal position. The process of blood infusion into the meat begins at death, and by being in a horizontal position is aided by gravity.

I am awfully sure on this, however I am open to being shown to be wrong. I believe I am right because the denomination I used to belong to was big on vegetarianism. A group of us, including a physician were discussing this matter and the final analysis was if you weren´t a vegetarian at least eat meat butchered with the express purpose of removing the blood, the Biblical way.

Deeje · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
I don´t think the removal of blood from market bought meat is practiced by some of your brothers and sisters. At least the ones I have known didn´t do it.

The apostle Paul wrote: “Let your reasonableness become known to all men.” (Philippians 4:5) That could apply to the matter of buying commercially produced meat from a butcher. Neither Israel’s Law nor the decree of the first-century Christian governing body indicated that God’s people had to go to great lengths in inquiring about meat, even becoming vegetarians if there was the slightest doubt about blood being in available meat.

So, because the first century governing body did not write that Christians had to take extraordinary precautions in this regard, as if they needed ultimate answers before eating any meat....we would reject such a Pharisaical attitude. It represents an extreme view, which is not what God wanted his people to do.

As Jesus demonstrated to the Pharisees time and again, it was the spirit of the law that mattered not the nit-picking letter of it. As long as the Jews followed God's written commands (rather than adhering to strict oral laws that did not originate with God, but with over-zealous legal scrutinizers) and respected the sanctity of blood, their consumption of meat was completely acceptable to God.

The law of God regarding the killing of food animals is extremely specific. It is so to be sure the blood is removed as far as possible from the animal. It appears cruel to me, but it is what it is,

As I recall the animals throat is cut and while it´s heart is still beating, it hung upside down, the heart pumps much of the blood out before the animal dies, where it continues to drain.

Kosher butchers still followed the law found in Leviticus or Deuteronomy.

This is interesting because this article I found on Kosher slaughter said...

"The laws regarding the precise method of slaughter are not stated in the Bible, but were given orally to Moses on Mount Sinai, as indicated in the verse by the statement, “as I have commanded thee,” that is, as I have already instructed you. [The function of this previous sentence is to make a link between rabbinically developed laws regarding implementation of these laws and what is traditionally understood as the revelation—of both oral and written Torah (which can be translated as both “teaching” and “law”)—at Sinai.]"

Kosher Slaughter: An Introduction | My Jewish Learning

So again we have the situation of oral traditions getting in the way of God's reasonable commands. If the method of slaughter is traditional rather than scriptural then that raises red flags for me. Jesus was not OK with that attitude in the Pharisaical interpretation of the law.

Modern butchers kill the animals instantly with a device that fires a bullet into the animals brain. It falls to the floor and is dragged off to be hung. There is no way this process can drain all the blood out of an animal, as it begins infusing into the flesh at death and when it falls to the floor and is dragged away.

Modern butchery does not drain all the blood out of the meat, it is in the flesh.

Even in a properly bled carcass, a small amount of blood would remain in the meat, but nothing in the Bible suggests that a Jew buying meat needed to go to extremes in getting such facts as the number of minutes between killing and draining, which artery or vein was cut to let the blood flow, and how the animal was hung up and for how long. As long as the animals is drained of its blood according to God's law, then residual amounts are to be expected. There is also a muscle fluid that remains.

So, I am sad to tell you that unless you buy Kosher meat, or are a vegetarian, you are eating blood.

It is a conscience issue and I have no compunction about eating meat from Aussie butchers. The law here regulates how animals are slaughtered and it meets the requirements set out in God's word. To me there is a vast difference between the spirit of the law and the letter. The spirit in this case is the sanctity of blood and respecting it as representing life to the Creator. If a minute residual amount of blood is left in the meat that was produced according to the law (rather than in accord with oral tradition) then my conscience is not bothered. God was never unreasonable about this.

That is how I see it. But I do not dictate my conscience to any of my brothers.

Faithofchristian · Jun 30, 2019

shmogie said:
What makes you think JWś believe there is no spirit ?

I'm answering the person who posted the
Thread, why don't you ask them, Why
JW don't believe there's a spirit

Faithofchristian · Jun 30, 2019

Deeje said:
Easy answer is that Jesus was speaking about "gehenna" which is not "hell". There is no hell. Gehenna is the same as the "lake of fire" in Revelation.....it represents eternal death...not eternal torture.

You will notice that God "destroys" body and soul in this place. What does destroy mean to you?

The soul and the spirit are completely different words with different meanings. They don't mean the same thing at all.
The Bible's formula for life is simple.....
A body + spirit (breath) = a soul.

Again, what does "destroy" mean?

Can I ask you what it is that you are promoting then? Isn't this your version of things? Aren't you a man?

LOL....you still can't see the operative word there, can you? "Destroying"......when something is "destroyed" it has perished, no longer useful for its intended purpose. It can be rebuilt but it is no longer able to serve its function in its destroyed state.

At death, the "spirit" has left the body because the last breath has just been expelled from the lungs. The soul is then dead. (Psalm 146:4) The body is consigned to the grave....a place from which Jesus promises to resurrect the dead. Some will go to heaven to rule with Christ; these are resurrected "first" (Revelation 20:6)....but for the majority, life will be restored to continue on earth, which is where God put us in the beginning. It's not really more complicated than that.

Explain exactly who are the dead.
What does it mean, the resurrection of the Dead
So who's the dead

There's no one in the graves.
All of except a dead body corps.

You do know that no one goes to heaven,
All must come before the Judgement seat of Jesus Christ first..

PruePhillip · Jun 30, 2019

SA Huguenot said:
... discuss a question I asked the Watchtower Tract and Bible society, or as better known, the Jehovah Witnesses.

Sir I feel you have asked the WRONG PEOPLE this question. The JW do not know the answers to your
questions. They have their own ever-changing bible, their own ever-mutating doctrines and they have
terrified generations of their own people with predictions of the return of Christ and end of the world on
a regular basis - predictions which did not come true.
To understand their "authority" you need to go back to their founders, beginning with the Millerites, then
Russel and finally Rutherford.
When I see them logging their hours, studying their publications, rejecting higher education and
shunning or being shunned - it breaks my heart.

RedhorseWoman · Jun 30, 2019

JJ50 said:
I must admit I am rather prejudiced against the JW religion. In 1986, our adopted Down's syndrome son, who was a baby at the time, had to have a life saving blood transfusion. A day or two later a couple of JWs came to our door and I challenged them about their attitude to accepting blood from a donor. They told me our lad would have been better off dead rather than receiving blood from another person. As you can imagine I was disgusted by their attitude.

What those JWs said to you was unforgivable and I can understand why you were disgusted. Usually, JWs are a bit more circumspect with regard to what "worldly" people do with regard to medical treatments, even if they, themselves, believe such a treatment is against God's will.

They had absolutely no right to criticize you on this matter.

RedhorseWoman · Jun 30, 2019

Hockeycowboy said:
I'm glad your boy is ok. I'm sorry they said that, they shouldn't have.

For us, we feel that, since God's Word says to "abstain...from blood (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29)," that is His view, a command from Him. (He gave Noah a similar command -Genesis 9:4).
If we wilfully disobey Him, we may lose His favor, and lose out on our future life from Him, everlasting life. -- Revelation 2:10b.

And what JWs continually ignore is that fact that the abstention from blood was solely an abstention from eating animal blood, in order to show respect for the life of that animal.

JWs have twisted what the scriptures have said by turning a rule against EATING animal blood into refusing freely donated human blood used in a medical context to save lives.

JWs basically have put the symbol of life (blood) on a pedestal and they will sacrifice their own lives and the lives of their children to this symbol, which is grotesque and goes totally against the original intent of that command to abstain from eating animal blood in order to show respect for life.

Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

Witness for Jehovah

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Avid Bible Student

Avid Bible Student

Avid Bible Student

Avid Bible Student

Well-Known Member

Witness for Jehovah

Well-Known Member

Avid Bible Student

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member