Has Trump committed treason?

Daemon Sophic said:

No. Not from what we’ve seen so far.
Here is a useful article addressing this issue.
Opinion | Steve Vladeck: America's overuse of 'treason' has reached alarming levels
The founding fathers specifically define treason in the constitution ,because they knew first-hand how often it was abused as a term out of the mouth of a tyrant to accuse his opposition.
It is undeniable that Trump has repeatedly called his opposition “treasonous” whenever they question him, but the left has rarely used the terms ‘traitor’ or ‘treason’ while describing the incompetent ConMan who resides in the White House now.

Actually the opposite is happening especially with Mueller’s recent statement. I expect/hope/demand that the congressional investigation will begin soon.
Mueller’s investigation makes it clear that there is a lot of evidence showing that Trump is guilty of collusion. Now for some transparency and light.

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Aye, Trump is one of the bozos who carelessly accuse people of "treason".

sealchan said:

Thanks for fleshing this out...

I think that what specifically concerns me in this area is Trump's lack of acknowledgement of U.S. Intelligence and also, perhaps, his military decisions which also do not adhere to any U.S. Intelligence or U.S. military advice. And these, simultaneously serving the interests of foreign military and intelligence operations either directly against us or against our long-standing interests.

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Well, when you're talking about US intelligence or military advice, it appears to me that these are the people who have been stuck in Cold War thinking all this time. They've never been seriously called upon to explain or justify how they define "US interests" and their reasoning for advocating many of the policies we've implemented over the past decades.

That's part of the problem we've had with foreign policy for as long as I can remember. People just blindly accept that "this is how it is" based on what they hear from the military leadership and the intelligence community, but why do we have to follow what they say? Moreover, why would it be considered "treason" if a president (or any member of the public) questions it or decides to oppose it?

Remember, these people have the same mindset as those who sent our troops to Vietnam, so I have to wonder: Do they really support US interests or not?

To put it bluntly,
Trump's long history of deceit and betrayal of everybody from his wives, investors and banks, to contractors and clients. Plus his more recent behavior, from hiring Manaforte and Flynn and firing Comey, to reigniting conflict with Iran, etc.
Leave me with so much circumstantial, but compelling, evidence that he is willing and able to sell out USA interests to bolster his own. I would need solid evidence that he isn't committing treason and intending to commit more before I would believe it.

It would be a lot of evidence. I doubt that it exists.
Tom

shmogie said:

You want him held accountable for what ? Do you have actual evidence of treason that contain all the elements of a crime ?

Say I wanted hillary drawn and quartered, so what ? As a member of the political elite, she will not be held accountable for her crimes.

If Trump. or anyone else has committed treason, actually proven, unlike the democrat chimera of collusion, they should be severely punished.

I deal in evidence, not speculation.

If Trump has broken the law, as determined by the agency having jurisdiction, they should say so, and pursue prosecution after he leaves office.,

That is being held accountable. Nothing less is worthwhile

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Deep down I just want Trump to be held accountable period. To anyone or anything other than himself. That would make a huge difference for me personally.

If he could just apologize or say he was wrong or bend a knee in humility just once....

Revoltingest said:

Aye, the multifaceted nature of how elections can be interfered with leaves
much room to mischievously infer what lefties want from what he says.

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A little wiggle room to make allowances for foreign influence? Yikes!

Lyndon said:

In your fantasies, Russia hacked the DNC and wikileaks released the emails the Russians hacked, probably 100s of thousands of votes were influenced by those events.

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Transparency has always crea

sealchan said:

Deep down I just want Trump to be held accountable period. To anyone or anything other than himself. That would make a huge difference for me personally.

If he could just apologize or say he was wrong or bend a knee in humility just once....

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Unfortunately he is essentially two people. On the one hand, he is a self centered crude blowhard that says very outlandish things.

On the other hand, in my view, the policies of the government he heads are almost always correct. There is much the Administration could do for the people if it wasn´t hamstrung by democrats who at this point in history do not care about the good of the people, they only care about political assassinations.

So, We have a clown who heads a reasonable administration and an opposition party that has become unhinged and irresponsible.

You want Trump to be held accountable, thatś fair.

I want the entire Democrat party held accountable for their abandonment of America.

shmogie said:

Transparency has always crea

Unfortunately he is essentially two people. On the one hand, he is a self centered crude blowhard that says very outlandish things.

On the other hand, in my view, the policies of the government he heads are almost always correct. There is much the Administration could do for the people if it wasn´t hamstrung by democrats who at this point in history do not care about the good of the people, they only care about political assassinations.

So, We have a clown who heads a reasonable administration and an opposition party that has become unhinged and irresponsible.

You want Trump to be held accountable, thatś fair.

I want the entire Democrat party held accountable for their abandonment of America.

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Sorry, I didn´t complete my response to Lyndon.

Transparency has always been a problem for democrats. Be it thousands of e mails legally ordered to be preserved, that are erased, or hand held devices legally ordered to be preserved that are destroyed by by hammers or the wikileaks email release.

I didn´t bother with them, but if they contained nasty stuff to effect thousands of votes, it must have been pretty bad, probably best the people learned about them.

sealchan said:

A little wiggle room to make allowances for foreign influence? Yikes!

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No, the wiggle room lies in interpretation....
- Level of effectiveness
- Level of approval or opposition
- Level of cooperation or resistance.

Trump has committed “treason”

Definition: In Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution, treason is specifically limited to levying war against the US, or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Conviction requires two witnesses or a confession in open court.[2]

Penalty: U.S. Code Title 18: Death,[8] or not less than 5 years' imprisonment and not more than life imprisonment without the possibility of parole (minimum fine of $10,000, if not sentenced to death). Any person convicted of treason against the United States will permanently lose the right to ever hold or run for public office anywhere in any capacity within the United States.[9][10]

Constitutionally, citizens of the United States owe allegiance to at least two sovereigns. One is the United States, and the other is their state. They can therefore potentially commit treason against either, or against both.[4] At least fourteen people have been charged with treason against various states; at least six were convicted, five of whom were executed. Only one person has ever been executed for treason against the federal government: William Bruce Mumford, who was convicted of treason and hanged in 1862 for tearing down a United States flag during the American Civil War.[5]

Treason laws in the United States - Wikipedia

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So what about Trumps latest stunt? Openly asking foreign countries for assistance against his political opponents...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...f94f66-8df6-11e9-b08e-cfd89bd36d4e_story.html

Or perhaps we need new law directly speaking to soliciting such information.

sealchan said:

So what about Trumps latest stunt? Openly asking foreign countries for assistance against his political opponents...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...f94f66-8df6-11e9-b08e-cfd89bd36d4e_story.html

Or perhaps we need new law directly speaking to soliciting such information.

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It's my understanding that the laws against it are already pretty explicit.

sealchan said:

So what about Trumps latest stunt? Openly asking foreign countries for assistance against his political opponents...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...f94f66-8df6-11e9-b08e-cfd89bd36d4e_story.html

Or perhaps we need new law directly speaking to soliciting such information.

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I noticed a story this morning where Trump accused the New York Times of treason.

Trump accuses New York Times of 'virtual act of Treason' with Russia report

It can get rather confusing when both sides accuse each other of treason. It makes one wonder just how one defines "treason."

Anyone can say "My ideas are best for America. My ideas will make America a better place. Anyone who opposes my wonderful ideas clearly wants to harm America, and therefore, they are guilty of treason."

Stevicus said:

I noticed a story this morning where Trump accused the New York Times of treason.

Trump accuses New York Times of 'virtual act of Treason' with Russia report

It can get rather confusing when both sides accuse each other of treason. It makes one wonder just how one defines "treason."

Anyone can say "My ideas are best for America. My ideas will make America a better place. Anyone who opposes my wonderful ideas clearly wants to harm America, and therefore, they are guilty of treason."

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Trump is so isolated in his thinking that he cant even negotiate how he expresses himself in very simple ways to avoid so much confusion and anger. He is stuck in this mode of causing controversy now. It must be that he is hearing people call him a traitor and so now he is trying to turn the tables on them.

What's truly treasonous is Trump's continuing defense of anything that Putin's Russia does against us while at the same time dissing our own 17 intelligence committees to favor them.

sealchan said:

Trump is so isolated in his thinking that he cant even negotiate how he expresses himself in very simple ways to avoid so much confusion and anger. He is stuck in this mode of causing controversy now. It must be that he is hearing people call him a traitor and so now he is trying to turn the tables on them.

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Yes, that's probably true, although what also appears true is that there is a certain ease and expediency in making these kinds of accusations in today's political climate. It's a rather pointless and highly subjective accusation when you really come down to it. Unless someone has hard evidence they're willing to bring into a court of law and enforce the statutes regarding treason which are currently on the books, it seems more in the realm of mud-slinging - which is done mainly for effect more than accuracy.

metis said:

What's truly treasonous is Trump's continuing defense of anything that Putin's Russia does against us while at the same time dissing our own 17 intelligence committees to favor them.

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Yes, by analogy that seems like a form of treason to me.

This isn't about policy, this is about a man who sees only himself and finds that the personal qualities of other dictators are much more adequate mirrors of character than any of those personal qualities that actually are what makes America great. His constant supply of money has made him into a literal monster, a Godzilla stomping through civilization where instead of destroying buildings he is erecting them like so many sores breaking out from some infection brought on by pure self-interest and greed.

Trump is the ultimate caricature of what happens when personal wealth is the highest virtue and that all the other virtues like honesty, sincerity, compassion, empathy, patience, kindness, intelligence, etc...are ignored or sacrificed.

sealchan said:

Yes, by analogy that seems like a form of treason to me.

This isn't about policy, this is about a man who sees only himself and finds that the personal qualities of other dictators are much more adequate mirrors of character than any of those personal qualities that actually are what makes America great. His constant supply of money has made him into a literal monster, a Godzilla stomping through civilization where instead of destroying buildings he is erecting them like so many sores breaking out from some infection brought on by pure self-interest and greed.

Trump is the ultimate caricature of what happens when personal wealth is the highest virtue and that all the other virtues like honesty, sincerity, compassion, empathy, patience, kindness, intelligence, etc...are ignored or sacrificed.

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And he said to George S. "I'm running the country...", which pretty much confirms what you're saying. And where's the congressional Republicans on this? Seems that they really don't mind having someone as a dictator that favors Putin over our own intelligence as they run with their tail between their legs. Not exactly "Profiles In Courage".

metis said:

And he said to George S. "I'm running the country...", which pretty much confirms what you're saying. And where's the congressional Republicans on this? Seems that they really don't mind having someone as a dictator that favors Putin over our own intelligence as they run with their tail between their legs. Not exactly "Profiles In Courage".

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This is where the prevaling myth of conservatism comes in according to Lakoff...that of having confidence in the stern father figure whose authority is to be obeyed and trusted. Since this is the psychological orientation of most conservatives the overall power lies in banking on this stern, father figure until he shatters his image of strength and confidence...someone will have to make him look like a petulant child before congressional Republicans will be able to save face with their base and break from Trump. Right now the conservative right is set for a big fall unless they can help themselves back to a more sane approach. I think that many, even most conservative leaders are either ducking out of politics temporarily or "holding their breath" trying to minimally show any kind of profile against the ill winds blowing.

The problem is that Democrats fall in favor of the nurturing mother archetype and so will not respect such a stern father figure leading their party. So we have this dichotomy with no easy solution. Trump will likely have to be his own undoing before that balance of power will resolve itself in the unconscious of the American electorate.

What we need is what we got from the West Wing TV series finale (WARNING spoilers!) where we had a liberal president ask his conservative opponent to be his vice-president.

We need a marriage of opposites and an example of unity across the party divide that both conservatives and liberals can appreciate.

We need a miracle!

sealchan said:

We need a marriage of opposites and an example of unity across the party divide that both conservatives and liberals can appreciate.

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I'm leaning towards a Biden/Harris ticket. Biden is pro-union and appeals to many who voted for Trump, which would play well in my area if Michigan, for example; whereas Kamala Harris is fairly young, very articulate, and would help bring in the minority vote.

I appreciate that in this thread we have moved beyond, perhaps, the overreach of thinking of Trump as treasonous in a way worthy of punishment by death.

But certainly there are ways of betraying one's country that are worthy of punishment but don't rise to the level of the death sentence. We seem to have a president that in a profound way doesn't listen to those who sincerely and dutifully have done service to this country and have knowledge and experience that doesn't have but should be leveraging.

Trump's me-first attitude is literally serving the interests of our enemies because it is failing to make use of our collective knowledge and wisdom. He is failing to listen and so to lead and this fact makes him a deep failure in his role. No one anticipated this level of ineptitude would enter the highest office in the land so we find ourselves somewhat defenseless against it.

But Trump isn't to be blamed for this entirely...not even the conservatives that continue to support him...this is a failure of the American character to overcome the challenges placed before us. We look like fools and deservedly so.

We have some work to do...