Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
Where is the proof? Or do you think Bahaullah's description of his encounter with the houri in jail is proof enough?

No, that is not the proof, there is no proof, but there is evidence, plenty of evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

Aupmanyav said:
If Bahaullah is decipherable by humans, why is it that the all-mighty Allah is not?

Because God is not a man we can see or hear. God is Spirit.

Aupmanyav said:
Why does Allah have such nefarious intentions? Does not he know that many religions will lead to conflicts?
You just said that it is God's intention that there be many religions throughout history.
What a funny flickering-mind Allah you profess! At one time he wants many religions, at another time he wants just one.

It is not God's fault humans have conflicts.
God ordained that there would be many religions throughout history, but in this new age God has ordained that there be one religion.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

dmap said:
Revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are not trustworthy sources of truth and knowledge.

Many of the claims of Christianity -- about history, science, archaeology, documents, morality, philosophy -- are false.

The claims of Christianity are not derived from a Revelation from God, so I do not consider them a revealed religion.
Here is the Baha'i definition of the nature of a religion.

“And now concerning thy question regarding the nature of religion. Know thou that they who are truly wise have likened the world unto the human temple. As the body of man needeth a garment to clothe it, so the body of mankind must needs be adorned with the mantle of justice and wisdom. Its robe is the Revelation vouchsafed unto it by God. Whenever this robe hath fulfilled its purpose, the Almighty will assuredly renew it. For every age requireth a fresh measure of the light of God. Every Divine Revelation hath been sent down in a manner that befitted the circumstances of the age in which it hath appeared.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 81

TransmutingSoul · Jun 9, 2019

paarsurrey said:
It is your wrong understanding, writing a book it another things and extractions by another person from different writings is misleading. Right, please?
Instead of giving quotations from a book compiled, one should give references of the original book. Right, please/

Regards

Trailblazer said:
I am sorry, but I do not know what all the original Tablets are that went into compiling Gleanings.

Shoghi Effend translated sections of Tablets that He saw would benefit our understanding of the Faith and compiled them is a book call 'Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah'.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

It is not wrong, it is not misleading, it is a book of Gleanings which are; "things, especially facts, that are gathered or collected from various sources rather than acquired as a whole.."

Regards Tony

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

dmap said:
You seem to imply that the New Testament was radically altered by the apostles of early Christianity and are, therefore, unreliable.

I am not saying it is completely unreliable. The spiritual truths shine through, and those are what are important, not all the stories. Below are a few statements on the Bible from authoritative Baha'i sources. More are available on the link below.

From Letters Written on Behalf of the Guardian:

...The Bible is not wholly authentic, and in this respect is not to be compared with the Qur'an, and should be wholly subordinated to the authentic writings of Bahá'u'lláh.
(28 July 1936 to a National Spiritual Assembly)

...we cannot be sure how much or how little of the four Gospels are accurate and include the words of Christ and His undiluted teachings, all we can be sure of, as Bahá'ís, is that what has been quoted by Bahá'u'lláh and the Master must be absolutely authentic. As many times passages in the Gospel of St. John are quoted we may assume that it is his Gospel and much of it accurate.
(23 January 1944 to an individual believer)

When 'Abdu'l-Bahá states we believe what is in the Bible, He means in substance. Not that we believe every word of it to be taken literally or that every word is the authentic saying of the Prophet.
(11 February 1944 to an individual believer)

We cannot be sure of the authenticity of any of the phrases in the Old or the New Testament. What we can be sure of is when such references or words are cited or quoted in either the Quran or the Bahá'í writings.
(4 July 1947 to an individual believer)

Except for what has been explained by Bahá'u'lláh and 'Abdu'l-Bahá, we have no way of knowing what various symbolic allusions in the Bible mean.
(31 January 1955 to an individual believer)

From letters written on behalf of the Universal House of Justice:

...The Bahá'ís believe that God's Revelation is under His care and protection and that the essence, or essential elements, of what His Manifestations intended to convey has been recorded and preserved in Their Holy Books. However, as the sayings of the ancient Prophets were written down some time later, we cannot categorically state, as we do in the case of the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, that the words and phrases attributed to Them are Their exact words.
(9 August 1984 to an individual believer)

The Bible: Extracts on the Old and New Testaments

dmap said:
What use is a messenger if the message gets garbled after 20 years and if only a handful of people hear it? Why should people have to wait hundreds of years before another messenger appears?

The message of Jesus was not completely garbled, as the statements above demonstrate.

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

Tony Bristow-Stagg said:
Shoghi Effend translated sections of Tablets that He saw would benefit our understanding of the Faith and compiled them is a book call 'Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah'.

Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh | Bahá’í Reference Library

It is not wrong, it is not misleading, it is a book of Gleanings which are; "things, especially facts, that are gathered or collected from various sources rather than acquired as a whole..

Here is some information from the Introduction to Gleanings that is not in the Baha'i Reference Library online.
I typed this up some time ago, since I reference Gleanings so often:

Do you know why it is called Gleanings? Because it is kind of an extraction of information from various Tablets... from the Introduction of Gleanings:

“Gleanings is excerpts from various Tablets. In the introduction to Gleanings it explains how it is organized into five parts. Part one, pages 1-46, proclaims this as the “Day of God.” Part two, pages 46-136, concerns the Manifestation of God and His significance. Part three, pages 136-200, deals with basic questions concerning the soul and its immortality. Part four, pages 200-259, concerns the spiritual aspects of the World Order and the Most Great Peace. Part five, pages 259-346, deals with the duties of the individual and the spiritual meaning of life.” Gleanings

“Gleanings is a book for meditative study. It is not a book of history and facts, but of love and spiritual power. No one can understand the faith of the thousands of martyred followers of the Bab, unless he catches the spirit of this book. No one can appreciate why thousands of Baha’is give up the comfort of settled homes and move into strange countries to tell the people about Baha’u’llah, unless he clearly glimpses the spirit of this book.”Gleanings

For the love and spiritual power noted in the paragraph above, Gleanings is probably the one book that is responsible for my own spiritual transformation that took place in June 2014. It was as if God was talking right to me in those pages. The Writings of Baha'u'llah are absolutely awe-inspiring. I tear up now, just thinking about them.

tayla · Jun 9, 2019

Trailblazer said:
They contain errors because they have been corrupted by man over time.

The revelations to the founders (the messengers) were imaginations or hallucinations. Completely untrustworthy.

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Yet, that is the most completely circular argument I think I have ever seen in my life. And worse, it depends upon entirely indefensible assertions, along with one egregious and inexplicable omission. Plus it ignores everything science has to say, and assumes that there is some way to differentiate "messengers" from "charlatans" or crooks with an agenda.

It is not difficult to differentiate Messengers of God from charlatans or crooks with an agenda...
All you have to do is look at the lives of the Messengers to know they had no ulterior motives and no selfish agenda. Then we can also look at the fruits of their actions.

Matthew 7:15-20 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Fruits: the pleasant or successful result of work or actions: FRUIT | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary

The egregious omission? "If God, then ..." You don't answer that one.

I have no idea what you mean. If God, then what???

The "messengers? Religious history of this world includes many messengers, and you provide not a single reason to suppose your messenger is "the one," and everybody else's is not.

There have been many Messengers of God throughout history; Baha'ullah is is not "the one", He is just just the most recent one.

Trailblazer · Jun 9, 2019

dmap said:
The revelations to the founders (the messengers) were imaginations or hallucinations. Completely untrustworthy.

I understand that you believe that, but can you prove it?
It makes no logical sense to me that entire religions that changed the course of human history could be based upon nothing more than the imaginations or hallucinations of their founders.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest...” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272

If you read this chapter in its entirety you will get a broad overview of the Baha’i viewpoint on religion in general, within the context of history and its relationship to present day society.

RELIGION AND CIVILIZATION

oldbadger · Jun 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
People ask me all the time why I believe in God. I tell them the evidence is the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Then they ask me how I know that Baha’u’llah got a message from God. Then I tell them I have evidence. I also tell them that my belief is based upon logical reasoning, not emotion. I do not have any emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah, I just believe that he was who He claimed to be so I have a great reverence for Him, what He did on His mission and what He wrote.

I was just doing a web search for something and I found this website a Baha’i posted that explains what I have been trying to explain as to why I believe in God and why I am a Baha’i rather than the member of another religion.

If you are interested, I suggest you read the whole blog on the link below, but here is the summary:

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

To sum up, we can articulate this theological chain of inference this way:

1. If the universe, then God.
2. If us, then a personal God.
3. If a personal God, then Messengers.
4. If Messengers, then Baha’u’llah.
5. If Baha’u’llah, then the Baha’i Faith.

Why am I a Baha’i? That is why.

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

When people tell you how wonderful, true and straight their religion is, stop listening and start watching.

Watch how that person lives from then on. Watch how they deal with other people, watch how they cope with adversities.
Watch them for integrity, honesty, kindness and charity. Watch them for prejudice, greed, lies, corruption, pride and arrogance.

You'll soon know about their religion.

No need to listen.......... just watch

Trailblazer · Jun 10, 2019

oldbadger said:
When people tell you how wonderful, true and straight their religion is, stop listening and start watching.

Watch how that person lives from then on. Watch how they deal with other people, watch how they cope with adversities.
Watch them for integrity, honesty, kindness and charity. Watch them for prejudice, greed, lies, corruption, pride and arrogance.

You'll soon know about their religion.

No need to listen.......... just watch

With all due respect, how people deal with other people, how they cope with adversities, how much integrity, honesty, kindness and charity they have, has more to do with how they were raised and what they have learned in life than it tells you about their religion... It could also be an indicator of how well they follow their religion, but it does not reflect upon the religion itself.

Anyone can belong to a religion and not even follow the teachings, so what people actually say and do does not reflect upon their religion, it reflects upon their character, and how well they follow their religion of choice. Any religious person can have prejudice, greed, dishonesty, corruption, pride and arrogance if they don't follow the teachings of their religion.

Aupmanyav · Jun 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
No, that is not the proof, there is no proof, but there is evidence, plenty of evidence.

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

What is this "word salad"? What does it actually mean? Does it mean anything sensible?

Aupmanyav · Jun 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Because God is not a man we can see or hear.
God ordained that there would be many religions throughout history, but in this new age God has ordained that there be one religion.

If God can make himself understandable to Bahaullah, why not to each and every person in the world individually? Is that beyond his power?
It is his world. Who else would we blame for the world's ills?
What a funny flickle-minded Allah you profess! Why he not sure of what he wants to do? If he wanted one religion, why did not he start with one religion only? He could have avoided many blood-baths.

Trailblazer · Jun 10, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
What is this "word salad"? What does it actually mean? Does it mean anything sensible?

Here is what that passage means...
Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

Trailblazer · Jun 10, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
If God can make himself understandable to Bahaullah, why not to each and every person in the world individually? Is that beyond his power?

I already told you that it is not beyond God's power, but it is beyond the power of humans to understand God directly, and that is why God uses Messengers to communicate to humans, as they act as mediators between God and man.

Even if humans could understand communication from God, why should God speak to each and every person in the world, when God can use Messengers to relay that information to everyone in the world through scriptures?

Realistically, how could all if the 7.4 billion people in the world understand the equivalent of the 15,000 Tablets Baha'u'llah wrote and write all that down?

Aupmanyav said:
It is his world. Who else would we blame for the world's ills?

Humans are responsible for the ills in the world because they have free will and they can choose between good and evil, and some humans choose evil.

Also, many humans are just complacent, so they do not care about addressing the problems in the world. they only care about themselves and their immediate family and friends.

Aupmanyav said:
What a funny flickering-mind Allah you profess! Why he is not sure of what he wants to do? If he wanted one religion, why did not he start with one religion only? He could have avoided many blood-baths.

God has always had a Purpose for humanity so He knew all along what he wanted to do, given God is All-Knowing, and He knew how to accomplish it, given God is All-Wise.

Each religion had a purpose and it was necessary for humanity to get to where we are at today.
Humans evolve spiritually over time: History as Spiritual Evolution

It was not time for the religions to unite under the banner of one religion until this age in history because humanity was just not ready for that till this new age, since they had not spiritually evolved enough. Humanity is still not ready, so it won't happen for a long time, but it will happen sometime during this age of history, what is called the Golden Age.

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......”
The Promised Day is Come, p. 116

Evangelicalhumanist · Jun 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
It is not God who needs Baha'u'llah, it is humans who need Him, because humans cannot understand God without an Intermediary. It has always been that way, since the dawn of human history.

Truly fascinated that you cannot see it: "Humans cannot understand God without an Intermediary," and yet, in every case for, that intermediary has been a human who claims to have understood God.

This is such a fundamental internal conflict that it beggars credulity.

Vinayaka · Jun 10, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Truly fascinated that you cannot see it: "Humans cannot understand God without an Intermediary," and yet, in every case for, that intermediary has been a human who claims to have understood God.

This is such a fundamental internal conflict that it beggars credulity.

Lots of religions believe there is no need for an intermediary. In fact, some insist on it. But yes, there are those, unable to think for themselves, have to rely on blind faith in the words of others.

But even in every day life, it's like that. Some folks simply need somebody to tell them what to do. I've encountered such people. Entering a workplace where there is obvious work to do, they stand staring waiting for some 'boss' to come along and tell them what to do. They can spill some coffee on the floor, and still not be able to figure out that they should just clean it up. Odd that. Puzzling even.

Trailblazer · Jun 10, 2019

Evangelicalhumanist said:
Truly fascinated that you cannot see it: "Humans cannot understand God without an Intermediary," and yet, in every case for, that intermediary has been a human who claims to have understood God.

This is such a fundamental internal conflict that it beggars credulity.

What you do not know is that the Intermediary is not an ordinary man... If He was, there would be absolutely no reason to believe Him at all.

The Intermediaries, referred to by Baha'is as Manifestations of God, possess two stations: one is the physical station, and one the spiritual. In other words, one station is that of a human being, and one, of the Divine Reality.

Every Manifestation of God is a mirror of God, reflecting His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being,

The Manifestations of God are another order of creation above an ordinary man. Their souls had pre-existence in the spiritual world before their bodies were born in this world, whereas the souls of all humans come into being at the moment of conception. The spiritual world is where They get their special powers from God. They possess a universal divine mind that is different than ours and that is why God only speaks to them directly and through Them God communicates to humanity.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
People can believe whatever they want to, but as far as my belief is concerned, anybody who believes that God is communicating to them directly is deluded by their idle fancies because God does not communicate directly with anyone except His Chosen Messengers. If people do not "like that" they can imagine God is speaking to them or they can choose to be atheists. I think being an atheist is the wiser and more rational choice.

Aupmanyav · Jun 10, 2019

Trailblazer said:
Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

Ah! He tells you how to check in his way and not in any other way. And words are just words, they do not constitute evidence.

Trailblazer said:
Realistically, how could all if the 7.4 billion people in the world understand the equivalent of the 15,000 Tablets Baha'u'llah wrote and write all that down?
Humans are responsible for the ills in the world because they have free will and they can choose between good and evil, and some humans choose evil.
"Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.."

You think that is beyond the power of your fickle-minded all-powerful Allah?
It is a major design fault by an incompetent engineer. Why did the fickle-minded all-powerful Allah give free will to humans. He wanted them to go astray?
Promise, promise and promise. It does not cost anything to promise. But the promise is never delivered. No time schedule for delivery. And if promises do not work then try to frighten. We have seen it all.

"I will give you 10,000 dollars."
"When?"
"That I can't tell you, but surely sometime in future. But if you do not accept my promise, then be ready for an eternity in hell (or complete destruction)."

You finally said it: "I think being an atheist is the wiser and more rational choice." It is not wise to insist on being irrational and try to mislead other people too.

Trailblazer · Jun 10, 2019

Aupmanyav said:
Trailblazer said: Baha’u’llah explained how we are supposed to establish the truth of His claim. First, we examine His own Self (His character); then we examine His Revelation (everything that surrounds His Mission on earth); and then we look at His words (His Writings).

Ah! He tells you how to check in his way and not in any other way. And words are just words, they do not constitute evidence.

Baha'u'llah did not say not to check in any other way. he said these were the BEST ways and the BEST evidence, but He did not say they were the ONLY ways or the only evidence:

“Bahá’u’lláh asked no one to accept His statements and His tokens blindly. On the contrary, He put in the very forefront of His teachings emphatic warnings against blind acceptance of authority, and urged all to open their eyes and ears, and use their own judgement, independently and fearlessly, in order to ascertain the truth. He enjoined the fullest investigation and never concealed Himself, offering, as the supreme proofs of His Prophethood, His words and works and their effects in transforming the lives and characters of men.”Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, p. 8

Aupmanyav said:
Trailblazer said: Realistically, how could all if the 7.4 billion people in the world understand the equivalent of the 15,000 Tablets Baha'u'llah wrote and write all that down?
Humans are responsible for the ills in the world because they have free will and they can choose between good and evil, and some humans choose evil.
"Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it.."

You think that is beyond the power of your fickle-minded all-powerful Allah?
It is a major design fault by an incompetent engineer. Why did the fickle-minded all-powerful Allah give free will to humans. He wanted them to go astray?
Promise, promise and promise. It does not cost anything to promise. But the promise is never delivered. No time schedule for delivery. And if promises do not work then try to frighten. We have seen it all.

"I will give you 10,000 dollars."
"When?"
"That I can't tell you, but surely sometime in future. But if you do not accept my promise, then be ready for an eternity in hell (or complete destruction)."

You finally said it: "I think being an atheist is the wiser and more rational choice." It is not wise to insist on being irrational?

It is the humans who messed up, not God.
God's promises have always been kept.

Aupmanyav · Jun 11, 2019

Trailblazer said:
he said these were the BEST ways and the BEST evidence, ..
It is the humans who messed up, not God.
God's promises have always been kept.

"He said ..", and that is why it makes the best test? Circular reasoning "because he said ..". Others may have different standards.
Your statements are not supported by evidence. Your Allah made the humans the way they are. Poor engineering.
Ah! Like sending Bahaullah (I think Bahais say that is promised in Bible and Qur'an). Every self-acclaimed prophet, son, messenger, manifestation, mahdi in Abrahamic religions claims such prophecies. They come dime a dozen.

List of people claimed to be Jesus - Wikipedia
Meet Five Men Who All Think They’re the Messiah
False Claimants of Prophethood - The Bahai Awareness Homepage
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia
Messiah complex - Wikipedia
Grandiose delusions - Wikipedia
List of Mahdi claimants - Wikipedia
Narcissistic personality disorder - Wikipedia
Messianism - Wikipedia
Mental health of Jesus - Wikipedia
White savior - Wikipedia

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

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