Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

[Trailblazer]

“The Great Being saith: O ye children of men! The fundamental purpose animating the Faith of God and His Religion is to safeguard the interests and promote the unity of the human race, and to foster the spirit of love and fellowship amongst men. Suffer it not to become a source of dissension and discord, of hate and enmity. This is the straight Path, the fixed and immovable foundation. Whatsoever is raised on this foundation, the changes and chances of the world can never impair its strength, nor will the revolution of countless centuries undermine its structure.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 215
This is a good message. It's a bit wordy which will alienate some.
It assumes some concepts which I would question such as:

I will address each of the points you raised...

Great Being -- I don't think of myself this way in relation to my children or dogs. I doubt God thinks of himself/herself this way towards us. I certainly don't want my children to think of me like this.

• There is no indication that God thinks of Himself this way. This is simply the way Baha'u'llah described God.

A Faith of God -- I prefer to think of the purpose in living. No need to postulate a Faith in God; this sounds so religious.

• the Faith of God and His Religion simply means the religion that was revealed to the Messenger.

A Religion of God -- implies a body of additional information which may not be true. It's not good to clump all the teachings together because in doing so, the bad teachings corrupt the good teachings.

• If it is a Religion of God it is all true, because God is Truth, God does not lie.
• There cannot be any bad teachings, or it would not be a Religion of God.

It implies there is to be a universal one institutional religion that governs the whole world to guarantee the human interests it mentions. It leaves out consideration of animals.

• Eventually there will be such a religion as that is what God has ordained.

“That which the Lord hath ordained as the sovereign remedy and mightiest instrument for the healing of all the world is the union of all its peoples in one universal Cause, one common Faith.” The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 91​

• Animals have been considered in the Baha’i Writings:

“Briefly, it is not only their fellow human beings that the beloved of God must treat with mercy and compassion, rather must they show forth the utmost loving-kindness to every living creature. For in all physical respects, and where the animal spirit is concerned, the selfsame feelings are shared by animal and man. Man hath not grasped this truth, however, and he believeth that physical sensations are confined to human beings, wherefore is he unjust to the animals, and cruel.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, pp. 158-159​

It implies we are to be guided by a rule, a path, that forms a model for our thinking of how we are to live. Usually rules have unintended side effects.

• I do not see that implication in that passage. We all need to think for ourselves, and that is why we have a logical brain and free will. However, religions have teachings and laws we are enjoined to follow, which are in our best interests and in the best interests of humanity.

It assumes the need for an organized religion in the first place. Presumably there are leaders. Who guarantees these are teaching and guiding correctly? Sounds like a set up for totalitarianism when the leaders proclaim themselves rulers over the government as well.

• The Baha’i Faith organization is based upon a democratic model of elected representatives. There are no rulers who can take over the organization.

It assumes a utopian ideal society. Usually these don't work out so well.

• They never did in the past, but this is a new age that was prophesied in all past religions and it is the Will of God…

“God’s purpose is none other than to usher in, in ways He alone can bring about, and the full significance of which He alone can fathom, the Great, the Golden Age of a long-divided, a long-afflicted humanity. Its present state, indeed even its immediate future, is dark, distressingly dark. Its distant future, however, is radiant, gloriously radiant—so radiant that no eye can visualize it......” The Promised Day is Come, p. 116​

 

[Trailblazer]

Only science is provable.

That is true.

Spiritual truth can't be proven. The best you can do is demonstrate they are reasonable via philosophy.

Or via its transformative effect upon individuals and upon the world.

 

[tayla]

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

It seems Baha'i wants to sanitize all religions so they can be considered as the same. But Christianity doesn't view itself like this. (Though liberal Christianity does.) Most Christians consider Christianity to be the only truth and other religions to be imposters.

Abraham and Moses were fictional characters, so how can they be messengers of God?

The Jesus of the gospels never existed. Since Baha'i considers Jesus to be a messenger of God, this means that whoever wrote the gospels was actual this messenger.

How can these kinds of errors concerning world religions be overlooked? Baha'i needs to jettison its teachings about the unity of all religions. Perhaps it could instead replace it with the sanitized claims it wishes to impose upon those religions. Then it could keep all the commendable social and fellowship aspects.

 

[tayla]

Or via its transformative effect upon individuals and upon the world.

Yes

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: You have valid points about philosophy, but why is that better than religion? It can no more be proven than religion can, because it is based upon human ideas.

My complaint with revealed religions is that they create institutions that claim to have truth. Inevitably, these collide with governments and other social institutions, and creates insiders and outsiders excluding many.

Religions colliding with governments and other social institutions has been the case with the the older religions such as Christianity but it cannot happen in the Baha'i Faith because...
“The Faith which this order serves, safeguards and promotes is … essentially supernatural, supranational, entirely non-political, non-partisan, and diametrically opposed to any policy or school of thought that seeks to exalt any particular race, class or nation. It is free from any form of ecclesiasticism, has neither priesthood nor rituals, and is supported exclusively by voluntary contributions made by its avowed adherents..” The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

The Baha'i Faith does not create insiders and outsiders, since we believe that mankind is one...
"...the followers of the Bahá’í Faith, nevertheless, viewing mankind as one entity, and profoundly attached to its vital interests, will not hesitate to subordinate every particular interest, be it personal, regional or national, to the over-riding interests of the generality of mankind, knowing full well that in a world of interdependent peoples and nations the advantage of the part is best to be reached by the advantage of the whole, and that no lasting result can be achieved by any of the component parts if the general interests of the entity itself are neglected….” The Promised Day Is Come, vi - vii

And by packaging all the claims into one package, the errors get respected as true. There is usually no way to strip errors out of religions, rather, future teachings must build on past false teachings. A good example is the Catholic Church.

One reason new Messengers have to come in every new age and establish a new religion is because of what humans do to change the meaning and intention of the scriptures over time, corrupting them and changing them from what was originally revealed.

Future religious teachings build upon past teachings but every new Messenger brings a new Revelation from God so it is like starting fresh.. That way the errors that entered into the older religions are not carried over to the new religion.

The new religion as it is revealed to the Messenger of God contains no errors, but humans are fallible so errors can enter in later if there is no protective mechanism to prevent that. The Baha'i Faith has a Covenant which is our greatest protection. This will mitigate against errors although it is not a guarantee.

Yes, your point about philosophy is correct. You can't prove philosophy as true. But it is superior to religion because religions claim their (philosophical) teachings are true. But since religious truth claims are merely philosophical in nature, they can't be proven and should not be claimed to be true.

I agree that religions should not make truth claims, because they cannot be proven to be true, but that does not mean that they are not true, since proof is not what makes anything true, it is just what people want to have so they can believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

You can help others and be mindful of doing so.

I'm not saying you can't help people. Who doesn't help people? We have governments with leaders which help people. Also charity organizations. Also individual actions that help people. You don't need religions to help people. That kind of help comes with a lot of unnecessary baggage.

Yes, I agree we can help others and I think that is what being spiritual is all about. It is not only about our personal connection to God.

Religion's primary purpose is not to help people. As you said we have other people, organizations, and government to help people. Religion is about guiding people with teachings that help us develop our character, and that has an effect upon society as a whole.

"Our past is not the thing that matters so much in this world as what we intend to do with our future. The inestimable value of religion is that when a man is vitally connected with it, through a real and living belief in it and in the Prophet Who brought it, he receives a strength greater than his own which helps him to develop his good characteristics and overcome his bad ones. The whole purpose of religion is to change not only our thoughts but our acts; when we believe in God and His Prophet and His Teachings, we find we are growing, even though we perhaps thought ourselves incapable of growth and change!"
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 3, 1943)
Lights of Guidance (second part)
​

Religion is also about guiding us to God's Truth and preparing our soul for the afterlife.

“The Prophets and Messengers of God have been sent down for the sole purpose of guiding mankind to the straight Path of Truth. The purpose underlying Their revelation hath been to educate all men, that they may, at the hour of death, ascend, in the utmost purity and sanctity and with absolute detachment, to the throne of the Most High. ”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 156-157​

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If everyone is mindful of something different how does that bring people together, or does that matter?

Spoken like a religious fundamentalist, that everyone should be united under such and such a creed. Families require unity. Nations require unity. Does the whole world need a one true religion in order to create the unity you propose?

I was not suggesting that people give up their individuality. There is beauty in diversity. BEAUTY AND HARMONY IN DIVERSITY

If families and nations require unity, who wouldn't the whole word need unity?
Only one true religion has the capacity to bring about the unity of the human race.
Government or material philosophy alone, devoid of the power of God, will never be able to accomplish such a feat.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: If the religion is the truth from God, it does not matter how many people believe it.

Yes, if it is. But none are.

How do you know that none are?
Are you saying that all religions are false?

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: It doesn't help anyone if the teachings are provably false, but it does help humanity of they are provably true.

Yes. But religions package truth with error, claiming it all as a package deal to be truth. And they claim God revealed the whole package, errors and all. That is my objection. I have no objection to people proposing truth claims for everyone to assess. It's in insisting they are from God that bothers me.

Fair enough, but if Truth comes directly from God to a Messenger who writes His own scriptures which have not been altered by humans, then they are Truth in its purest form.
And if God revealed the whole package, there can be no errors.
No, we cannot prove that these Messengers are from God to everyone, but we can prove that to ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: But what if the Messenger actually got messages from God?

That would be great. Then there would be no errors. The presence of errors indicates the messenger did not get messages from God.

I like your logical way of thinking.
That is what I am proposing, as I just said in my last post.
What if there was such a message? Think about the implications.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: I am not saying that everyone can believe in a Messenger of God, but everyone cannot believe in the hypothetical messenger who met your criteria 1-4 either.

Yes, I agree. There are no messengers or saviors of mankind, religious or otherwise. Only truth claims, some more trustworthy than others, some provably false. That's as good as it gets.

How do you know for certain that there is no such Messenger?
Hypothetically speaking, it is entirely possible and also quite likely, given what the scriptures of all the major religions say about a Messiah.

“Each of the world's major religions contains Messianic prophecies.

Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, the Zoroastrian religion and even the Native American religions all foretell the coming of a Promised One. Each of the Founders of these great religions either promised to personally return himself, to send another like himself or in some instances.... the Founder promised to do both.......

If Baha'u'llah truly is the Promised One then His appearance is one of the greatest events of human history. Are Baha'u'llah's claim true? How can we know for certain? Just take a look at some of the proofs and prophecies... and then decide for yourself.”

Prophecy Fulfilled Webpage​

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: “O KING! I was but a man like others, asleep upon My couch, when lo, the breezes of the All-Glorious were wafted over Me, and taught Me the knowledge of all that hath been. This thing is not from Me, but from One Who is Almighty and All-Knowing. And He bade Me lift up My voice between earth and heaven, and for this there befell Me what hath caused the tears of every man of understanding to flow. The learning current amongst men I studied not; their schools I entered not. Ask of the city wherein I dwelt, that thou mayest be well assured that I am not of them who speak falsely. This is but a leaf which the winds of the will of thy Lord, the Almighty, the All-Praised, have stirred.” Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 57

I hope this messenger has no errors in his claims. His claim to divine authority is remarkable. Even one error would not look so good.

If His claim to infallibility is true, how would any fallible human be able to point out errors? Think about it logically.

I prefer more humble philosophical analysis to these extraordinary claims of hearing from God.

That is certainly your choice, since you have free will...
I prefer the Word of God because it is infallible.

 

[Trailblazer]

You don't prove they are true, you try to validate they are false so you can reject them. The more minds that consider a topic, the more information available to use in assessing the truth claims.

I am glad to hear you say this. I am surprised that nobody else has ever thought of this.
I have been challenging people to prove Baha'u'llah's claim is false for five years.
However, the investigation has to be based upon the real facts that surround the Revelation of Baha'u'llah, not upon the calumnies that people dredge up which are derived from false information.

I'm not claiming something is true if many people claim it is true. This is false, as you note.

Good.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, I agree. For example, I am the only person having my views, and they are the correct views. But not because I'm a messenger of God, but because I'm considering the topic differently than others. Having accepted science but rejected atheism, and having been deeply involved in various religions (eastern and Christian), I have noticed the contradictions of these viewpoints.

You are correct in your views. Science is true, but God exists nonetheless.
There is no contradiction between true religion and science because any religion that contradicts science is false. Nevertheless, there are spiritual truths that reside outside the purview of science and cannot be proven with science.

There are contradictions in the viewpoints of various religions but there is a logical explanation for that.
In other words, these contradictions do not invalidate any of these religions.

All I'm doing is:

1. pointing out the errors in the various truth claims
2. agreeing that science generates truth regarding the physical
3. noticing aspects of reality that slip through the cracks of scientific consideration (consciousness and its contents, teleonomy and teleology in biology), and I propose expanations for these.

That is a very valid approach to test reality.

 

[Trailblazer]

Revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are not trustworthy sources of truth and knowledge for the reason that they contain teachings that are provably false.

For example?

 

[Trailblazer]

Over time, the teachings of these messengers you mention can be used by leaders to control the followers and subvert the teachings. We should be wary when someone claims to teach true knowledge revealed by God, especially when that knowledge is passed on from generation to generation in a religious institution having leaders who claim to be authoritative representatives of God on behalf of the founder.

Yes, we should be wary because, over time, the religious leaders have corrupted the original message in the scriptures, often in order to gain power and control over the followers. Baha'u'llah wrote about this...

“Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder.” Gleanings, p. 171-172

 

[Trailblazer]

Christianity, eastern religions (all of them), new age movement, other religions I prefer to not mention.

Yes, I agree, many of their messages are provably false.

 

[Trailblazer]

I agree. If the message which is proclaimed as being revealed from God has errors, it should be rejected. This is not to say that every statement is false. There may be a lot true, but these can be derived from philosophy without the divine revelation.

I agree, it should be rejected if there are any errors, because an infallible God cannot be in error.
So would you use your logical mind to determine that there are errors?

Yes, I agree that truth can be derived from philosophy. Truth is not found only in religion.

“The first principle Baha’u’llah urged was the independent investigation of truth. “Each individual,” He said, “is following the faith of his ancestors who themselves are lost in the maze of tradition. Reality is steeped in dogmas and doctrines. If each investigate for himself, he will find that Reality is one; does not admit of multiplicity; is not divisible. All will find the same foundation and all will be at peace.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Star of the West, Volume 3, p. 5.

“What does it mean to investigate reality? It means that man must forget all hearsay and examine truth himself, for he does not know whether statements he hears are in accordance with reality or not. Wherever he finds truth or reality, he must hold to it, forsaking, discarding all else; for outside of reality there is naught but superstition and imagination.” – Abdu’l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 62

 

[Trailblazer]

I suppose it's possible there will be a future messenger who does have revelation from God. But why did God wait so long to finally send him/her?

I meant, how do you know that God has not already sent a Messenger who has come and gone?
God waited because for everything there is an appointed time, and it was not time until 1844.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Daniel 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The words in the "book" (Bible) were intended to be sealed up until the time of the end, until the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days came. The 2,300 years came in 1844. That math is explained in Some Answered Questions, 10: TRADITIONAL PROOFS EXEMPLIFIED FROM THE BOOK OF DANIEL.

1844 was the date of the proclamation of the Bab, which signalized the beginning of the Baha’i Era, the beginning of the Messianic Age. We are now living in the Time of the End, which refers to the time when Christ would return. Before that we were living in the prophetic age which started with Adam and ended with Muhammad.

The book (Bible) was unsealed by the coming of the Bab and Baha’u’llah because Baha’u’llah and His appointed interpreter Abdu’l-Baha explained what the Bible means.

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no other option than revealed religion or revealed spiritual paths. But we must of necessity assess the claims of the founders of those using, you guessed it, philosophy. We must use our minds to assess truth claims, and that is, you guessed it again, philosophy.

It is also logic that we must use.