Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

[Trailblazer]

Every one I have encountered has this problem. Certainly the major world religions and spiritual paths have this problem.

They contain errors because they have been corrupted by man over time.

 

[Trailblazer]

Religions claim to teach truths revealed by God, and they have institutions supporting these ideas. They contain teachings which are provably false.

Agreed, the religions of the past that have teachings that are false because the original scriptures have been changed and corrupted by the leaders and followers of those religions.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, of course. But this assumes God sends messages to humanity via specially appointed messengers. But he/she obviously does not do this. We know this because all his so-called messengers teach things untrue, and because the teachings of all these so-called messengers contradict one another. There is no way to discover which messenger is the true one. Certainly if there were a one true messenger of God, than God would have made it clear which one?

If you look at as close as you can get to the original teachings of every true Messenger of God, I do not think you will find anything that is false. The problem is that we do not have the original scriptures of religions penned in the hand of the Prophet Founder, so we are looking through a glass darkly. Only the Bab and Baha'u'llah wrote scriptures and we have the originals.

None of the Messengers contradicted each other but they all brought something new. The contradictions are only apparent contradictions because of how the leaders and followers of those religions have changed the inherent meaning of the messages.

All the true Messengers brought the truth but the message was time/date stamped to expire upon the coming of the next Messenger. The spiritual truths of all the great religions are the same and they are eternal but their social teachings and laws were abrogated by the next Messenger. Also, each Messenger brought a new message that was pertinent to the age in which He appeared.

God never makes it clear who the true Messenger is because God wants us to determine that ourselves.

 

[paarsurrey]

I do know it, but I was not sure if Baha'u'llah made the claim you were asking about in the Iqan, because I do not know the book by heart.

Nobody says that one should learn Iqan by heart, one can look into it, it is not a voluminous book. Is one evasive to check it, please?
One could get help from other Bahai friends. Right, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

Gleanings is just as much the Original Writings of Baha'u'llah as is the Iqan. Both were translated into English by Shoghi Effendi.

The translation is done by Shoghi Effendi, but it is the Bahais in these forums who have told here that Gleanings is a book compiled by quotes from other different writings of Bahaullah?

"Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
A selection of passages from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, compiled and translated by Shoghi Effendi, including extracts from Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, as well as other Tablets."


Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

You sent me several quotes, and I've encountered others. What I've seen confirms my opinion.

It is easy to form an opinion based upon a few quotes, especially when you already have definite opinions.
What is more difficult is to disprove an entire religion.

I agree that world peace and harmony is a good goal. But uniting into a global religion is not possible. And world governance must consider the many valuable lessons from political philosophy and moral philosophy. There is no perfect government; hard choices must be made. The people of each generation have to grapple with these topics.

For everything there is a season, as it says in the Bible. It is not yet the time for the world to unite under one religion, but it will happen when it is time. God has set a time for everything.
In this generation we cannot even imagine what the world will be like 100 or 200 years from now. Only a Prophet of God has the power to envision that.
Just imagine the people living 200 years ago envisioning what the world is like now... It would have been impossible.
Many changes have to take place before we see world unity. This process is only beginning.

Should a religion be the government? Didn't many world religions already try this experiment, all with disastrous results? Yet Baha'u'llah seems to propose a world religious government.

Baha'u'llah does not propose a world "religious government." Briefly, we envision that governments will chose to adopt some of Baha'i principles into their methods of governing and gradually governments will change for the better.

“The unity of the human race, as envisaged by Bahá’u’lláh, implies the establishment of a world commonwealth in which all nations, races, creeds and classes are closely and permanently united, and in which the autonomy of its state members and the personal freedom and initiative of the individuals that compose them are definitely and completely safeguarded. This commonwealth must, as far as we can visualize it, consist of a world legislature, whose members will, as the trustees of the whole of mankind, ultimately control the entire resources of all the component nations, and will enact such laws as shall be required to regulate the life, satisfy the needs and adjust the relationships of all races and peoples. A world executive, backed by an international Force, will carry out the decisions arrived at, and apply the laws enacted by, this world legislature, and will safeguard the organic unity of the whole commonwealth. A world tribunal will adjudicate and deliver its compulsory and final verdict in all and any disputes that may arise between the various elements constituting this universal system. A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity. A world metropolis will act as the nerve center of a world civilization, the focus towards which the unifying forces of life will converge and from which its energizing influences will radiate.” The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 203

 

[Trailblazer]

There isn't a one true messenger teaching God's revelation.

Of course, you cannot prove that there isn't anymore than I can prove that there is...
As such, you have an opinion and I have a belief.

Reality is not determined by your opinion or my belief. Reality simply exists.

 

[paarsurrey]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Does on mean, therefore, that Bahaullah never claimed in Kitab-i-Iqan that he received any word of revelation from G-d, please?

I am not sure, as I have not had the time to look yet, since I have too many posts to answer.
I will check it later if I have the time.

Please take a leave for a few days (say 3 days) to check it and confirm, if one promises, the poster friends would allow one that time happily. During these (3) days no poster friends would bother one to reply our posts in person . Does every poster in this thread agrees to it, please?
Other Bahais could attend to our posts in this time if they like, no harm, please?

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

Alaska? Hawaii?

Thanks for spending the time. I will read some Baha'i stuff.

No, Washington State... and it was 3:30 am before I got to bed.
But as the saying goes, it is all in a day's work, work I do not mind doing for the Cause of God.

I have been working on my responses all day, I just hope I did not overwhelm you with posts...

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Does on mean, therefore, that Bahaullah never claimed in Kitab-i-Iqan that he received any word of revelation from G-d, please?

Please take a leave for a few days (say 3 days) to check it and confirm, if one promises, the poster friends would allow one that time happily. During these (3) days no poster friends would bother one to reply our posts in person . Does every poster in this thread agrees to it, please?
Other Bahais could attend to our posts in this time if they like, no harm, please

This has been explained ample times. Baha'u'llah revealed that book in answer to a question by an uncle of the Bab and had not yet declared His given Mission.

If one understands the proofs given in the Book, that in itself proves Baha'u'llah, as in that book, He has proved every other prior Messenger that has ever given a Message from God.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems Baha'i wants to sanitize all religions so they can be considered as the same. But Christianity doesn't view itself like this. (Though liberal Christianity does.) Most Christians consider Christianity to be the only truth and other religions to be imposters.

No, that is not the Baha'i belief at all. The vision is that at some time in the future everyone will voluntarily choose to be the member of one world religion. It won't necessarily be the Baha'i Faith because by that time a new Messenger of God might have appeared and established a new religion.

The idea is that every time a new Messenger appears a new religion will be established but in the distant future, people will be aware of the Baha'i teachings of progressive revelation so they will know that they have to relinquish their religion and join the new religion, which will be a universal religion.
Of course, nobody really knows what will happen in the future, but this is how I envision it.

Abraham and Moses were fictional characters, so how can they be messengers of God?

Why do you think they are fictional? Where do you get your information?

The Jesus of the gospels never existed. Since Baha'i considers Jesus to be a messenger of God, this means that whoever wrote the gospels was actual this messenger.

Do you mean that the Jesus who was portrayed in the gospels never existed, because the gospels did not accurately portray Jesus?

The Baha'i Faith considers Jesus to be a Messenger of God, but everything that was written about Jesus came by way of oral tradition, so it is not necessarily accurate. However, we believe that the spiritual teachings of Jesus are portrayed in the gospels. They simply got lost to Christianity because of all the false doctrines of the church that developed around the man called Jesus. Some truth came through in Christianity but that truth has been submerged under a morass of false doctrines such and original sin, the bodily resurrection, heaven and hell, and the return to earth of the same man Jesus. None of these doctrines were taught by Jesus. Christianity is far from what Jesus taught, and there is no way the two can be reconciled. It is much too late for that, and that is one reason Baha'u'llah was sent, to correct the misconceptions of Christianity.

How can these kinds of errors concerning world religions be overlooked? Baha'i needs to jettison its teachings about the unity of all religions. Perhaps it could instead replace it with the sanitized claims it wishes to impose upon those religions. Then it could keep all the commendable social and fellowship aspects.

They have been overlooked by the followers of those religions because they cannot face the fact that their religions have been corrupted by their leaders. But they have not been overlooked by God, who sent Baha'u'llah to set things aright. I am sorry if people do not like that belief, but they do not have to believe it unless they want to. That is the beauty of free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Nobody says that one should learn Iqan by heart, one can look into it, it is not a voluminous book. Is one evasive to check it, please?
One could get help from other Bahai friends. Right, please?

Regards

I can ask Baha'i friends on other forums or maybe some Baha'is on this forum would know.
Tony would probably know.
I will try to find out, but I do not think that Baha'u'llah proclaimed that He got a message from God in the Iqan.... I could be wrong though.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

People ask me all the time why I believe in God. I tell them the evidence is the Revelation of Baha’u’llah. Then they ask me how I know that Baha’u’llah got a message from God. Then I tell them I have evidence. I also tell them that my belief is based upon logical reasoning, not emotion. I do not have any emotional attachment to Baha’u’llah, I just believe that he was who He claimed to be so I have a great reverence for Him, what He did on His mission and what He wrote.

I was just doing a web search for something and I found this website a Baha’i posted that explains what I have been trying to explain as to why I believe in God and why I am a Baha’i rather than the member of another religion.

If you are interested, I suggest you read the whole blog on the link below, but here is the summary:

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

To sum up, we can articulate this theological chain of inference this way:

1. If the universe, then God.
2. If us, then a personal God.
3. If a personal God, then Messengers.
4. If Messengers, then Baha’u’llah.
5. If Baha’u’llah, then the Baha’i Faith.

Why am I a Baha’i? That is why.

Why Baha’i? It Comes Down to Five Questions

Yet, that is the most completely circular argument I think I have ever seen in my life. And worse, it depends upon entirely indefensible assertions, along with one egregious and inexplicable omission. Plus it ignores everything science has to say, and assumes that there is some way to differentiate "messengers" from "charlatans" or crooks with an agenda.

• The egregious omission? "If God, then ..." You don't answer that one.
• The indefensible assertion? The universe (existence) cannot be without a cause. This ignores, of course, that the cause should also not be able to exist without a cause of its own...something you won't consider because it doesn't fit you narrative.
• The science? "Us," we do indeed exist, and science gives an extremely convincing narrative of " that comes to be.
• The "messengers? Religious history of this world includes many messengers, and you provide not a single reason to suppose your messenger is "the one," and everybody else's is not.
• And if all those are true, then you final point, about the Bahai Faith, is utterly without foundation. Which, of course, doesn't have anything to do with whether you believe it or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

The translation is done by Shoghi Effendi, but it is the Bahais in these forums who have told here that Gleanings is a book compiled by quotes from other different writings of Bahaullah?

"Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh
A selection of passages from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, compiled and translated by Shoghi Effendi, including extracts from Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, the Kitáb-i-Íqán, and the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, as well as other Tablets."

Yes, but Gleanings is extracts from Tablets written by Baha'u'llah so it is just as accurate as the Kitab-i-Iqan.

 

[Trailblazer]

paarsurrey said: ↑
Does on mean, therefore, that Bahaullah never claimed in Kitab-i-Iqan that he received any word of revelation from G-d, please?


Please take a leave for a few days (say 3 days) to check it and confirm, if one promises, the poster friends would allow one that time happily. During these (3) days no poster friends would bother one to reply our posts in person . Does every poster in this thread agrees to it, please?
Other Bahais could attend to our posts in this time if they like, no harm, please?

Regards

I will do my best to find out.
Oh, I see that Tony just answered your question...
Thanks Tony!

 

[tayla]

Are you saying that all religions are false?

Revealed religions and revealed spiritual paths are not trustworthy sources of truth and knowledge.

Many of the claims of Christianity -- about history, science, archaeology, documents, morality, philosophy -- are false.

 

[tayla]

if Truth comes directly from God to a Messenger who writes His own scriptures which have not been altered by humans, then they are Truth in its purest form.

You seem to imply that the New Testament was radically altered by the apostles of early Christianity and are, therefore, unreliable. What use is a messenger if the message gets garbled after 20 years and if only a handful of people hear it? Why should people have to wait hundreds of years before another messenger appears?

 

[Aupmanyav]

God could do that if He wanted to, but obviously He does not want to, and God ONLY does what God wants to do... That is one thing it means to be God.

.. because humans cannot understand God without an Intermediary.

It was God's intention that there be many religions throughout history, ..
No, the Messengers have not divided anyone into different religions, humans have divided themselves.
It was the Will of God to have many religions, but it is no longer the Will of God for humans to remain divided into many religions. In the future, there will be only One Religion because that is what God has ordained ..

Where is the proof? Or do you think Bahaullah's description of his encounter with the houri in jail is proof enough?

"While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a Maiden — the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of My Lord - suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the All-Merciful. Betwixt Earth and Heaven she was raising a call which captivated the hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outer being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God's honoured servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who are in Heaven and all who are on Earth saying: "By God! This is the best beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you, could ye but understand." Maid of Heaven - Wikipedia

If Bahaullah is decipherable by humans, why is it that the all-mighty Allah is not?

Why does Allah have such nefarious intentions? Does not he know that many religions will lead to conflicts?
You just said that it is God's intention that there be many religions throughout history.
What a funny flickering-mind Allah you profess! At one time he wants many religions, at another time he wants just one.

Do you know that proselytization is against the rules of the forum?

 

[paarsurrey]

Yes, but Gleanings is extracts from Tablets written by Baha'u'llah so it is just as accurate as the Kitab-i-Iqan.

It is your wrong understanding, writing a book it another things and extractions by another person from different writings is misleading. Right, please?
Instead of giving quotations from a book compiled, one should give references of the original book. Right, please/

Regards

 

[Trailblazer]

It is your wrong understanding, writing a book it another things and extractions by another person from different writings is misleading. Right, please?
Instead of giving quotations from a book compiled, one should give references of the original book. Right, please/

Regards

I am sorry, but I do not know what all the original Tablets are that went into compiling Gleanings.