When you focus on the people whose faith you think was answered (e.g. their inoperable brain tumour was cured), while ignoring the people whose faith didn't save their lives (e.g. those who died from their inoperable brain tumours) and then declaring that faith saves lives.
Again... that is like saying "when you focus on the ones that are cured by using chemo, you ignore the people that chemo didn't save their lives and then declaring that chemo saves lives.
We do say that of chemo and we do say that of faith.
I’ll give you some examples to illustrate what I’m talking about. My father had a massive stroke and as his brain was deteriorating we had to take him off life support and basically wait for him to die. As he died, my deeply religious uncle frantically prayed over him, imploring Jesus to save his life. My father died 7 minutes later at the age of 56. A year later, as my grandfather (my uncle’s father) lay dying, my uncle insisted that every day we all join hands and pray over him for his recovery (prostate cancer). My grandfather ended up dying. Same goes for my grandmother a couple of years later. Lots of praying, but she ended up dying as well. So from my point of view, faith doesn’t have a great track record in the healing department. But you say it does. So how do we settle this discrepancy?
I can understand your position as many people go through that same pain and then wonder. Certainly I'm sorry for the pain of lost loved ones. I also have lost loved ones.
There are many reasons in the Bible that expresses why there are cases that it just doesn't produce the desired results. Just like there are many cases that chemo doesn't produce the desired results, but we don't throw out chemo because someone else died even when they used chemo.
Certainly I don't know your grandparents and your father and all the nuances to suggest possibilities but in my experiences, I have found a few:
For an example: One person never ate vegetables (natural anti-oxidants) and loved sugar (a cancer enhancer). We did pray but he still didn't want to eat vegetables and still ate ice-cream.Prayer, IMV, is useless in this case.
Another example - more of a biblical explanation: Unforgiveness is a faith short circuit. Unforgiveness can be hidden in someones heart and yet no one knows that it is there. Thus Jesus said "And when you pray, forgive..." Mark 11:25 Some people's faith is short-circuited through unforgiveness.
Some people are not really praying with faith as Jesus said, "
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their
much speaking."
Then there are those who really don't believe:
Matthew 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
Not saying that any of the above fits what happened.. there are many other issues that could have prevented God's move. I'm just saying that sometimes it doesn't work like sometimes chemo doesn't work.
What I’m asking you for is by what method you have tested your faith claims and demonstrated that faith produces any kind of result whatsoever in these instances.
Have you demonstrated how faith works, what it is and how it operates?
With chemo, doctors can say what the average survival rate is for certain types of treatment for certain types of cancer. So how do we determine the survival rate for faith?
Yes, we teach on how faith works, what it is and how it operates. Teaching is what Jesus did and teaching increases capacity.
As far as testing... we teach, people pray, and when we ask "Please raise your hand if you have experienced a supernatural healing moment" hands go up everywhere.
What I want to know is, how can we test your faith claims and determine they are what you say they are?
I would say learn about faith and then test it yourself? I'm not sure how you want me to answer that question
What is a spirit and how do we know we have one?
And does that mean God doesn’t play a role in these supposed miracles then? That it all boils down to mind over matter?
No... I expressed that the spirit and faith is greater than mind over matter. Yes, God plays a role and, for Christians, we determine we have a spirit through the word and through experience.
Empirical evidence? What you have are anecdotes. I could just as easily say, “Well we prayed over my dad and he died so faith doesn’t produce medical miracles.”
So you prayed over the woman and she lived. So how about all the people all over the world at any given moment that are praying that their starving children will survive to adulthood? And yet millions of starving children die every day. Where does that fit into your empirical evidence?
You do know that cancer has been known to spontaneously regress, right? It is well documented.
Immunity over inability: The spontaneous regression of cancer
Spontaneous regression of tumour and the role of microbial infection – possibilities for cancer treatment
I think these really aren't questions but rather you are saying "I don't believe it" and so the questions aren't really questions
This looks like confirmation bias to me.
I mean, you have to realize that at any given moment, there have to be thousands (maybe millions) of people all over the world praying for the survival of their loved ones, many of whom are children, who will ultimately die. They don’t get any miracles. But that lady you prayed over was definitely cured by God? How does that make any kind of sense?
Again... I have prayed prayers that were useless and now I know why. There are reasons why people don't receive and we thank God that wisdom is given to man to help people get healed (although thousands, maybe millions, still die) even by doctor hands
Okay, so then in the case of the women you prayed over, there is a natural explanation for their survival – spontaneous regression. So we have no need to invoke faith or miracles in such cases. It’s just the natural course of nature.
How do you know it wasn't a miracle? Is "spontaneous regression" a medical term of "I don't know why it happened, but it happened"?
Are you seriously saying that Smith Wigglesworth raised the dead? Where is this documented? Why doesn’t it appear in the science literature? It seems such an amazing feat would be known and studied all over the world.
Sorry but anecdotes from the 19th Century don’t cut it for me.
OK... no problem.
Where is this documented that I can look at? It sounds like the third attempt to bridge her broken spinal cord wasn’t a failure after all, now does it?
John Hopkins Hospital. And this sounds more like "No matter what you say, I'm not going to believe you".
So, whether the child thrown from the third floor at the Mall of America a couple of weeks ago, placed in an induced comma in an ICU to perform a 5 hour body check and finding that absolutely no brain, or bone damage and the fall's effects was like falling from a bike and the doctor saying "It is truly a miracle" makes no difference to you.
This would qualify as a reason why wouldn't be able to receive a miracle.
That doesn’t make much sense to me. So faith is believing in things you can’t observe or test?
How is faith a pathway to truth? Is there anything that can’t be believed on faith?
Are these really questions? Because these plethora of answers doesn't really convince me you are really seeking.
